About to rebuild my T56, what should I replace?
11-15-2005, 12:52 PM
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About to rebuild my T56, what should I replace? My clutch is toast and the time for replacemetn has come. The tranny grinds going into third and forth unless I pause briefly while holding the pedal to the floor before pushing the shifter into those gears. Reverse sometimes pops when I put it into gear but not every time. I read the T56 rebuild guide on ls2.com and have the help from a buddy who has done it before but.....
What should I replace to make the tranny stronger than it was stock in my 99 TA? Where do I buy these parts from? Below is a list of what I think I am going to have to replace, but am I leaving something out?
Blocker rings (replace my paper style for carbon fiber)
Synchros slider keys (is there a stronger version than stock)
Shift forks (replace all of them? or just the 3/4 aluminum fork)
Is there a master rebuild kit I can buy to make this easier?
What should I replace to make the tranny stronger than it was stock in my 99 TA? Where do I buy these parts from? Below is a list of what I think I am going to have to replace, but am I leaving something out?
Blocker rings (replace my paper style for carbon fiber)
Synchros slider keys (is there a stronger version than stock)
Shift forks (replace all of them? or just the 3/4 aluminum fork)
Is there a master rebuild kit I can buy to make this easier?
11-15-2005, 01:13 PM
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1. The 1-2 shiftfork doesn't need to be replaced, just replace the 3-4 with a steel piece. (~$50)
2. There are billet slider keys that you can buy for about $99. If you abuse the tranny a lot I would probably opt for them. The stamped pieces come with the rebuild kit.
3. I think the only kind of blocker rings that are sold are the carbon fiber ones. Ask just to make sure when you do purchase a kit.
There are two different kinds of kits that I have seen. From the problems you are discribing it sounds like the synchros are on their way out so you will probably just need the basic kit ($200). There is a master kit that includes bearings and a lot of other hardware that you probably won't need.
I bought all my hardware from The Gear Box on Ebay, service was great. I think there are sponsors now that rebuild them so you might want to look into them about parts if you're going to do it yourself.
Frank
2. There are billet slider keys that you can buy for about $99. If you abuse the tranny a lot I would probably opt for them. The stamped pieces come with the rebuild kit.
3. I think the only kind of blocker rings that are sold are the carbon fiber ones. Ask just to make sure when you do purchase a kit.
There are two different kinds of kits that I have seen. From the problems you are discribing it sounds like the synchros are on their way out so you will probably just need the basic kit ($200). There is a master kit that includes bearings and a lot of other hardware that you probably won't need.
I bought all my hardware from The Gear Box on Ebay, service was great. I think there are sponsors now that rebuild them so you might want to look into them about parts if you're going to do it yourself.
Frank
11-15-2005, 06:10 PM
#6
ls1joe at T56rebuilds is a sponsor and he helped me out and has a good price too. call him up and he will fix you up. i ordered my parts last week and had parts the next day. (he is in houston and i am in DFW like 300mi) but anyways i was impressed with him. i rebuild my tranny for the first time this past weekend and couldnt have asked for better parts or service.
nick
http://www.t56rebuilds.com/
nick
http://www.t56rebuilds.com/
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11-15-2005, 10:28 PM
#9
Give me a call. I keep the parts in stock, offer credit card payments and the parts will leave the same day. I can answer any questions you have when tearing that sucker apart
Joe
PS: Thanks Nick for the comments. Give me a call if you still have questions.
Joe
PS: Thanks Nick for the comments. Give me a call if you still have questions.
12-31-2005, 07:21 PM
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Here's the parts list I have for my rebuild/upgrade in progress right now:
If I didn't plan on going with a Viper output shaft (31 spline vs. the F-body's and C5/C6 smaller 27-spline unit) I'd contact Rockland Standard Gear for one of their silcone-bronze no-walk extension housing bushings. The silcone-bronze bushing is about twice the length of the stock babbit bushing and can be installed by anyone with a press and decent assembly procedures. The viper shaft is larger and won't fit, and the bushing is already wider anyway.
If you don't already have an aftermarket shifter with adjustable throw stops... consider it. I love my Pro 5 with a Lou's Short Stick. A heavy counter-weight shift **** also helps quiet down and smooth out tranny feedback (most ***** are light aluminum... I had to have my custom made from stainless steel, but there are companies out there doing them in out threading now).
I've also considered getting the 1-2-3-4 cluster gear shaft, 5-6 countershaft, and the 1,2,3,4,5,6,R gears micro-finished (aka superfinished, REM processed, Mikronite processed, etc..)... but the time delay may make that a deal breaker.
Most dealers claim 20 to 30 degrees drop in tranny temp and 80 to 100% longer gear life (RSG claimed 60 degrees drop )... costs range from $250 to $400 a tranny based on dealer and type of service.
If you feel real adventurous you could look into a further upgrade that may be possible with the 2006 Z06 on the scene: a 32-spline output shaft. The Z06 finally surpassed GM's expectations of a 27-spline and they went to the GM big boy... the 32-spline size used with the 4L80E trannys. As an added bonus, if you make it work you could have the vette's 3-cone syncros in 3-4 and 5-6 (instead of the 2 cones every other T56 uses).
For those with money to burn, just call G-Force Transmission for a corvette mainshaft upgrade (3-cone syncros)... although it's still 27-spline you have the option of a 300M alloy to increase it's strength. Given the new 32-spline vette output shaft I'm sure it's only a matter of time before they put out a similar upgrade. They also have larger, stronger gear teeth.
BTW, stay away from the SSR's first gear and 1-2-3-4 counter shaft... they won't interchange with F-bodies due to the change in tooth size... unless you switched both TO a SSR design to gain 1st gear strength and can handle the 3.08:1 first gear ratio (might actually make 3.73's attractive for accelleration and longer 6th gear legs for better MPG I guess... but I havn't really run the numbers to seriously consider this yet). Another upgrade for another day I guess.
- Viper steel 3-4 shift fork (~$45)
- brass shift fork pads ($10/pad)
- billet steel 3-4 and 5-6 syncro keys ($70/set... 1-2 syncro keys are available, but cost ~$180 as they are only available with a complete Corvette assemby , no idea is reverse ones are available but it'd be a waste of money IMO).
- new blocker rings/cones (all new 1-2, 3-4, 5-6 rings are carbon-fiber lined, Reverse is available as the stock brass or 2005+ vette's carbon-fiber)
- 31-spline Viper output shaft conversion (~$550 incl. machining)
- new 2nd gear with updated Viper syncro teeth (thicker teeth, older style is discontinued... most rebuilders have never seen syncro teeth failure, though 2nd gear has had rare occations when abused). Getting it superfinished (REM, Mikronite, etc..) while I'm ordering.
- new caged needle-bearings under gears, and tapered roller bearings as needed. (should be in a rebuild kit)
- SSR 2nd gear snap ring reportedly a HD ring used on the SSR's T56 for 2nd gear... if it fits, we'll see. (standard snaps for 2nd and the rest should be in a rebuild kit)
- front/rear seals (should be in a rebuild kit)
- new shift interlock plate (stock ones have been found with cracks in them from time to time).
- needle/roller pilot bearing (used in 1994-1997 LT1's, and all LSx engines, replaced the solid silicone-bronze pilot bushing used in 1993 LT1's, the LT5, and earlier small blocks). Some LT5 guys refuse to go roller and swear by a newer GM pilot bushing that was a bronze bushing with flutes in it for oil retension... but many turn those ZR1's to 7000+ with the roller bearing without issue...
- clutch throwout bearing
- rear main engine seal (LT1, easy access while I'm in there, may not apply to LS1's :p)
- ARP Pro Series flywheel bolts (this one's a no brainer)
- Redline MTL tranny fluid
- Denny's Driveshaft Nitrous-ready DS with 31-spline Chrysler yoke and solid (non-greaseable) 1350 sized U-joints... new yolk is needed for a viper output shaft and may change the length of the DS. Compliments the Moser 12-bolt with 1350 U-joints.
- TBD: 2005+ Corvette shift linkage bearings (vs the standard bushings). These reportedly reduce friction in the shifter, but I'm still wiating to hear if they are interchangeable with F-body linkage... we'll see.
- TBD: SSR and Caddy CTS-V T56's use a slightly wider syncro hub to decrease the throw distance to engauge gears. I dont' know if they interchange, but if they do, it could help shorten the forward-back shift distance (side to side will be the same as stock)... again... we'll see what I can dig up.
If I didn't plan on going with a Viper output shaft (31 spline vs. the F-body's and C5/C6 smaller 27-spline unit) I'd contact Rockland Standard Gear for one of their silcone-bronze no-walk extension housing bushings. The silcone-bronze bushing is about twice the length of the stock babbit bushing and can be installed by anyone with a press and decent assembly procedures. The viper shaft is larger and won't fit, and the bushing is already wider anyway.
If you don't already have an aftermarket shifter with adjustable throw stops... consider it. I love my Pro 5 with a Lou's Short Stick. A heavy counter-weight shift **** also helps quiet down and smooth out tranny feedback (most ***** are light aluminum... I had to have my custom made from stainless steel, but there are companies out there doing them in out threading now).
I've also considered getting the 1-2-3-4 cluster gear shaft, 5-6 countershaft, and the 1,2,3,4,5,6,R gears micro-finished (aka superfinished, REM processed, Mikronite processed, etc..)... but the time delay may make that a deal breaker.
Most dealers claim 20 to 30 degrees drop in tranny temp and 80 to 100% longer gear life (RSG claimed 60 degrees drop )... costs range from $250 to $400 a tranny based on dealer and type of service.If you feel real adventurous you could look into a further upgrade that may be possible with the 2006 Z06 on the scene: a 32-spline output shaft. The Z06 finally surpassed GM's expectations of a 27-spline and they went to the GM big boy... the 32-spline size used with the 4L80E trannys. As an added bonus, if you make it work you could have the vette's 3-cone syncros in 3-4 and 5-6 (instead of the 2 cones every other T56 uses).
For those with money to burn, just call G-Force Transmission for a corvette mainshaft upgrade (3-cone syncros)... although it's still 27-spline you have the option of a 300M alloy to increase it's strength. Given the new 32-spline vette output shaft I'm sure it's only a matter of time before they put out a similar upgrade. They also have larger, stronger gear teeth.
BTW, stay away from the SSR's first gear and 1-2-3-4 counter shaft... they won't interchange with F-bodies due to the change in tooth size... unless you switched both TO a SSR design to gain 1st gear strength and can handle the 3.08:1 first gear ratio (might actually make 3.73's attractive for accelleration and longer 6th gear legs for better MPG I guess... but I havn't really run the numbers to seriously consider this yet). Another upgrade for another day I guess.
12-31-2005, 08:12 PM
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One more thing:
The 2003+ Viper, and now the 2005+ Z06 uses a one-piece countershaft. In other T56 varients the 1-2-3-4 driven gears are a one peice "gear cluster" with lugs on the end that interlock with the lugs on the 5-6 "counter shaft". The 5-6 countershaft actually hold the syncros and gears, while the driven gears are mounted to the output shaft. The 1-2-3-4 gears are mounted just the opposite (with a solid 1-piece driven gear cluster, and individual gears/sycros mounted on the mainshaft). This set up allows the smaller driven gears of the 5 and 6 overdrive gears to mount to the mainshaft, and the larger 5th and 6th gears/syncros to reside on an "auxillary shaft" which is lug-linked to the 1-2-3-4 cluster gear countershaft. While this lug connection is reliable, it has been a source of fialure in LeMans Vipers which is why they went to a 1-piece counter shaft with pressed on gears/syncros for 5th and 6th. It should make the countershaft stronger, but I'm not sure if it's interchangeable... I'm checking on it. I may just plop in a new Viper one with the mainshaft upgrade.... depends on the cost involved (though it would be easier to get the gears finished if I bought it new and only have to wait for shipping one way).
The 2003+ Viper, and now the 2005+ Z06 uses a one-piece countershaft. In other T56 varients the 1-2-3-4 driven gears are a one peice "gear cluster" with lugs on the end that interlock with the lugs on the 5-6 "counter shaft". The 5-6 countershaft actually hold the syncros and gears, while the driven gears are mounted to the output shaft. The 1-2-3-4 gears are mounted just the opposite (with a solid 1-piece driven gear cluster, and individual gears/sycros mounted on the mainshaft). This set up allows the smaller driven gears of the 5 and 6 overdrive gears to mount to the mainshaft, and the larger 5th and 6th gears/syncros to reside on an "auxillary shaft" which is lug-linked to the 1-2-3-4 cluster gear countershaft. While this lug connection is reliable, it has been a source of fialure in LeMans Vipers which is why they went to a 1-piece counter shaft with pressed on gears/syncros for 5th and 6th. It should make the countershaft stronger, but I'm not sure if it's interchangeable... I'm checking on it. I may just plop in a new Viper one with the mainshaft upgrade.... depends on the cost involved (though it would be easier to get the gears finished if I bought it new and only have to wait for shipping one way
).
12-31-2005, 08:52 PM
#17
This is great information but should be posted in its own thread. Some of this information is not meant for just the average person looking to rebuild there broken transmission. This info is great for someone looking to make more than 800rwhp but then I only recommend G-Force Parts if you are going to push that limit. The average rebuild will withstand 700rwhp in a 3600lb car. I use all G-Force Parts in my Viper T-56's and yes for the guys with holes in there pockets, great use of the money.
12-31-2005, 09:08 PM
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I guess it depends on what your budget and intended use are... but outside of the Viper output shaft upgrade, the Denny's DS it's really not all that bad and alot easier to spend a few more bucks now than later.
I've seen G-Force's price list and know it's probably worth the cost, but there are other options at that level. I came accross a straight-cut gear set for a T56 which would allow for pulling it out of gear under load (unlike helical cut gears that lock until you lift or clutch)... interesting (and even more expensive than G-force kits if you can belive it). And then there are of course the anti-syncro croud that goes with flaceplating and pro-shifted gears which require double-clutching.
Finally there's the coolest shift system on the planet that supposedly has a T56 hooked up, but I've yet to get a reply from the manufacturer just yet (www.zeroshift.com)... instant shifts with no heavy, costly solenoids.
There's a few more bits and pieces I'll be doing with the rebuild, but like I said, most are low-cost wear items that arn't nearly as costly or extreme as some listed.
I've seen G-Force's price list and know it's probably worth the cost, but there are other options at that level. I came accross a straight-cut gear set for a T56 which would allow for pulling it out of gear under load (unlike helical cut gears that lock until you lift or clutch)... interesting (and even more expensive than G-force kits if you can belive it). And then there are of course the anti-syncro croud that goes with flaceplating and pro-shifted gears which require double-clutching.
Finally there's the coolest shift system on the planet that supposedly has a T56 hooked up, but I've yet to get a reply from the manufacturer just yet (www.zeroshift.com)... instant shifts with no heavy, costly solenoids.
There's a few more bits and pieces I'll be doing with the rebuild, but like I said, most are low-cost wear items that arn't nearly as costly or extreme as some listed.
Last edited by Steve in Seattle; 12-31-2005 at 09:15 PM.
01-01-2006, 02:46 PM
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If i were u i would try to find a rebuild kit for a Viper cause all the parts are the same and not to mention the strength of the shift forks for Vipers are a whole lot greater thats what i did to mine.
2000 WS6 M6
2000 WS6 M6