Rear End FAQ!
11-20-2005, 10:18 PM
#1
Rear End FAQ! 1. I have a leak, where is it coming from?
The two most common places for a rear end to leak are the pinion seal (the front of the housing) and the rear end cover. Pinion seal seepage is very normal for an f-body, as long as you check your fluid and it doesn’t leave drips on the ground, it is usually okay. Many times people take their cars to be fixed at the dealership only to have it leak again. The rear cover will leak because of a bad gasket/poor use of RTV sealant. You will notice a few drips hanging from the very bottom of the housing, and the area around it may be damp as well. Fixing a rear cover leak is very simple – remove the cover, scrape the old gasket/RTV off of the cover & the housing, lay down fresh RTV sealant on the cover, bolt it back on and add the appropriate fluid (75w90 & GM rear end additive). The rear end is full when fluid begins to spill out of the drain plug on side of the housing.
One should not attempt to fix a pinion seal leak unless they are familiar with the way a rear end goes together, because pinion depth & crush sleeves are vital to correct setup. Fixing a pinion seal includes removing the driveshaft, pinion nut, washer, yoke, and old seal. The housing should be clean from nicks, and the yoke should be cleaned with a scotchbrite pad to get rid of any unsmooth areas before the new seal is installed. When retightening the pinion nut, it is important not to overcrush the crush sleeve. Pinion bearing preload needs 24-32 inch/lbs tq with a new crush sleeve, or 8-12 inch/lbs if reusing your old stuff.
2. What gears are best for my car?
To find what gears are best for you, it would be wise to use the search function of this website to look at cars that are similar to yours in modification. In general, most people with 6 speed cars choose 4.10s, and most people with automatic cars choose 3.73s. However once you start adding modifications like a new camshaft or a forced induction system, you should spend time researching before you decide. Automatic LS1 cars come with 3.23s or 2.73s from the factory, and six speed LS1 cars have 3.42 gears.
3. What is a gear ratio, and how do I know what I have?
If you have a stock vehicle, look for the RPO codes on the door or in the glove box. GU2 = 2.73, GU5 = 3.23 and GU6 = 3.42. A gear ratio is the number of teeth on one gear compared to another. To find the ratio, you divide the number of teeth on the driven gear by the number of teeth on the driving gear. For instance, the number of teeth on a ring (driven) gear is 41. The number of teeth on a pinion (driving) gear is 10. 41 divided by 10 = 4.10.
4. What can I expect to pay for a gear upgrade?
A set of gears themselves will cost $150-$250 depending on what brand you purchase. Most shops will charge $250-$400 in labor, and may add more for supplies. Overall, you will spend $400-$700 on a gear change depending on your location. Don’t skip out and go with the cheapest one – be certain that a trained professional is handling your installation!
5. Can I set up my own rear end?
You may or may not be able to, depending on your level experience. If you perform all of your own installations and are patient, it is possible to perform it yourself, but it would really help to have someone who has done it before to help you through your first time. Setting up pinion depth & backlash are vital to a well-working rear end. Gears that are not set up correctly will whine or howl, and fail prematurely.
If you want to read more about installing gears, visit the site below for a complete how-to.
www.keliente.com/gears.htm
6. Is a 10 bolt even worth putting money into?
Theoretically, a 10 bolt is going to be weaker than a 12 bolt, or Ford 9 inch rear end due to the size, but that doesn’t make it useless. Some people have more luck with 10 bolts than others, obviously. The life of your rear end will depend on how you drive and maintain your car. If you are running slicks at the drag strip and launching from 6,000 rpms, something is bound to break eventually. If you don’t keep up on fluid and let it run low, the bearings will fail prematurely. If your gears are not set up correctly, it’s more bad news. However there ARE people out there who have ridden their 10 bolt right into 10 second passes in the quarter mile.
Whether you will need a ‘better’ rear end is up to you. If you are replacing parts of your 10 bolt every other week, yes, it’s time for an upgrade. A new 12 bolt runs at least $2,000+. People do encounter problems with 12 bolts and 9 inches as well; they are not the ultimate solution!
7. Junkyard Rears: what can and cannot be installed
To make it short, the only thing that you can directly bolt in underneath your car is a 10 bolt from another f-body of your generation. Other rear ends, such as old 12 bolts, junkyard 9"s, Ford 8.8's may or may not be worth attempting to install. The price up front may seem cheaper than buying a new rear end, but often by the time you replace parts and pay someone for extensive fabrication, it doesn't sound so good anymore. And then you are also dealing with old, junkyard parts.
There are ways to not pay retail on an aftermarket rear - consider buying used, or contacting a sponsor for information on building your own 9 inch, using one of their housings.
8. What is backlash?
Backlash is the play between the ring and the pinion, i.e., how much space there is exactly before the pinion actually contacts the ring. It is measured with a dial indicator gauge (either magnetic or clip on). Too little backlash will make for a bad whine, and too much makes for a sloppy setup. In general, different manufacturers call for .006” - .010” backlash (some may even allow for more).
9. What is a ‘paddle’, and a paddle kit for that matter?
A paddle takes the place of an axle pin in a Torsen differential car. Instead of a thin cylinder, it is shaped like a block and is held in with an 8mm bolt. The purpose of a paddle or axle pin is keep the axles pushed outward, and thus retained with the c-clips. Sometimes when installing different gears, a paddle kit may be needed for re-installation. SLP’s paddle kit is a two piece paddle that allows it to fit. To decide if you will need one or not, be sure to contact the sponsor from whom you are purchasing the gears.
10. Besides gears, what do I need for an install?
It is good practice to replace all of the bearings when installing new gears…if you have the rear apart anyway; it only takes extra minutes to replace the bearings. A good master installation kit will include everything you need, but specifically if you choose to replace everything you will need: carrier bearings (2), front pinion bearing, rear pinion bearing, crush sleeve, pinion nut, axle bearings (2), axle seals (2), pinion seal, a set of shims, gear paint, loctite, RTV gasket maker, 75w90 (2), GM rear end additive (for LSDs). It is also a good idea to replace the ring gear bolts, which may stretch over time. They are left hand thread, fyi.
11. I can’t get my axles out, they won’t slide in far enough to remove the c-clips!
Got a car with traction control? The sensor is prohibiting the axle to move in far enough. Remove the sensor from the backing plate and it will allow you more room to slide it inward to drop the c-clips.
12. What is a series 2 or series 3 carrier, and what do I have?
A 2 series carrier is a car that came with 3.08s or lower from the factory (i.e. all of your 2.73 cars). A 3 series carrier is a car that came with 3.23s or higher. This is very important when you order new gears, as they will differ from 2 to 3 series carrier!
13. What gear oil should I use?
You can find this in the owner's manual. Otherwise, 75w90 or 80w90 will work fine. It is not necessary to use synthetic oil. Also if you have an auburn carrier you will need the limited slip additive.
14. How much gas mileage will I lose going up in ratio?
This question is going to depend on different things...such as whether your car is a manual or automatic, how big of a jump you made in gear ratio, and how much city and highway driving you do. However, it is pretty safe to say that the performance and fun-factor gains are going to be worth whatever miniscule gas mileage you may lose.
15. What's the difference between a 3 channel and 4 channel rear?
A three channel rear end has ABS. A 4 channel rear end has ABS and traction control. A 'channel' is just a way of describing the means for a speed sensor to gauge the wheel speed. On a 3 channel rear end, the two front wheels have sensors, and there is one sensor on top of the rear end housing that reads for the whole rear. On a 4 channel rear end, there is a speed sensor at every wheel. 4 channel rear ends have reluctor wheels on each axle, 3 channel rears have one big reluctor ring on the differential. Because a 4 channel has a sensor at each rear wheel it can see the difference in speed between one wheel and the other, and ta-da, you have traction control.
16. Will a 3 channel rear end work in my 4 channel car?
Yes, you can make it work, if you put the axles from your four channel car into the 3 channel rear end and install the sensors into the backing plate. To put a 4 series into a 3 series would be more difficult, because it would require you to drill in the top of the rear housing for the sensor, and add a reluctor ring to the carrier as well.
17. Can't I just edit ASR/ABS out of the PCM with tuning software?
No, it is controlled by the EBCM.
The two most common places for a rear end to leak are the pinion seal (the front of the housing) and the rear end cover. Pinion seal seepage is very normal for an f-body, as long as you check your fluid and it doesn’t leave drips on the ground, it is usually okay. Many times people take their cars to be fixed at the dealership only to have it leak again. The rear cover will leak because of a bad gasket/poor use of RTV sealant. You will notice a few drips hanging from the very bottom of the housing, and the area around it may be damp as well. Fixing a rear cover leak is very simple – remove the cover, scrape the old gasket/RTV off of the cover & the housing, lay down fresh RTV sealant on the cover, bolt it back on and add the appropriate fluid (75w90 & GM rear end additive). The rear end is full when fluid begins to spill out of the drain plug on side of the housing.
One should not attempt to fix a pinion seal leak unless they are familiar with the way a rear end goes together, because pinion depth & crush sleeves are vital to correct setup. Fixing a pinion seal includes removing the driveshaft, pinion nut, washer, yoke, and old seal. The housing should be clean from nicks, and the yoke should be cleaned with a scotchbrite pad to get rid of any unsmooth areas before the new seal is installed. When retightening the pinion nut, it is important not to overcrush the crush sleeve. Pinion bearing preload needs 24-32 inch/lbs tq with a new crush sleeve, or 8-12 inch/lbs if reusing your old stuff.
2. What gears are best for my car?
To find what gears are best for you, it would be wise to use the search function of this website to look at cars that are similar to yours in modification. In general, most people with 6 speed cars choose 4.10s, and most people with automatic cars choose 3.73s. However once you start adding modifications like a new camshaft or a forced induction system, you should spend time researching before you decide. Automatic LS1 cars come with 3.23s or 2.73s from the factory, and six speed LS1 cars have 3.42 gears.
3. What is a gear ratio, and how do I know what I have?
If you have a stock vehicle, look for the RPO codes on the door or in the glove box. GU2 = 2.73, GU5 = 3.23 and GU6 = 3.42. A gear ratio is the number of teeth on one gear compared to another. To find the ratio, you divide the number of teeth on the driven gear by the number of teeth on the driving gear. For instance, the number of teeth on a ring (driven) gear is 41. The number of teeth on a pinion (driving) gear is 10. 41 divided by 10 = 4.10.
4. What can I expect to pay for a gear upgrade?
A set of gears themselves will cost $150-$250 depending on what brand you purchase. Most shops will charge $250-$400 in labor, and may add more for supplies. Overall, you will spend $400-$700 on a gear change depending on your location. Don’t skip out and go with the cheapest one – be certain that a trained professional is handling your installation!
5. Can I set up my own rear end?
You may or may not be able to, depending on your level experience. If you perform all of your own installations and are patient, it is possible to perform it yourself, but it would really help to have someone who has done it before to help you through your first time. Setting up pinion depth & backlash are vital to a well-working rear end. Gears that are not set up correctly will whine or howl, and fail prematurely.
If you want to read more about installing gears, visit the site below for a complete how-to.
www.keliente.com/gears.htm
6. Is a 10 bolt even worth putting money into?
Theoretically, a 10 bolt is going to be weaker than a 12 bolt, or Ford 9 inch rear end due to the size, but that doesn’t make it useless. Some people have more luck with 10 bolts than others, obviously. The life of your rear end will depend on how you drive and maintain your car. If you are running slicks at the drag strip and launching from 6,000 rpms, something is bound to break eventually. If you don’t keep up on fluid and let it run low, the bearings will fail prematurely. If your gears are not set up correctly, it’s more bad news. However there ARE people out there who have ridden their 10 bolt right into 10 second passes in the quarter mile.
Whether you will need a ‘better’ rear end is up to you. If you are replacing parts of your 10 bolt every other week, yes, it’s time for an upgrade. A new 12 bolt runs at least $2,000+. People do encounter problems with 12 bolts and 9 inches as well; they are not the ultimate solution!
7. Junkyard Rears: what can and cannot be installed
To make it short, the only thing that you can directly bolt in underneath your car is a 10 bolt from another f-body of your generation. Other rear ends, such as old 12 bolts, junkyard 9"s, Ford 8.8's may or may not be worth attempting to install. The price up front may seem cheaper than buying a new rear end, but often by the time you replace parts and pay someone for extensive fabrication, it doesn't sound so good anymore. And then you are also dealing with old, junkyard parts.
There are ways to not pay retail on an aftermarket rear - consider buying used, or contacting a sponsor for information on building your own 9 inch, using one of their housings.
8. What is backlash?
Backlash is the play between the ring and the pinion, i.e., how much space there is exactly before the pinion actually contacts the ring. It is measured with a dial indicator gauge (either magnetic or clip on). Too little backlash will make for a bad whine, and too much makes for a sloppy setup. In general, different manufacturers call for .006” - .010” backlash (some may even allow for more).
9. What is a ‘paddle’, and a paddle kit for that matter?
A paddle takes the place of an axle pin in a Torsen differential car. Instead of a thin cylinder, it is shaped like a block and is held in with an 8mm bolt. The purpose of a paddle or axle pin is keep the axles pushed outward, and thus retained with the c-clips. Sometimes when installing different gears, a paddle kit may be needed for re-installation. SLP’s paddle kit is a two piece paddle that allows it to fit. To decide if you will need one or not, be sure to contact the sponsor from whom you are purchasing the gears.
10. Besides gears, what do I need for an install?
It is good practice to replace all of the bearings when installing new gears…if you have the rear apart anyway; it only takes extra minutes to replace the bearings. A good master installation kit will include everything you need, but specifically if you choose to replace everything you will need: carrier bearings (2), front pinion bearing, rear pinion bearing, crush sleeve, pinion nut, axle bearings (2), axle seals (2), pinion seal, a set of shims, gear paint, loctite, RTV gasket maker, 75w90 (2), GM rear end additive (for LSDs). It is also a good idea to replace the ring gear bolts, which may stretch over time. They are left hand thread, fyi.
11. I can’t get my axles out, they won’t slide in far enough to remove the c-clips!
Got a car with traction control? The sensor is prohibiting the axle to move in far enough. Remove the sensor from the backing plate and it will allow you more room to slide it inward to drop the c-clips.
12. What is a series 2 or series 3 carrier, and what do I have?
A 2 series carrier is a car that came with 3.08s or lower from the factory (i.e. all of your 2.73 cars). A 3 series carrier is a car that came with 3.23s or higher. This is very important when you order new gears, as they will differ from 2 to 3 series carrier!
13. What gear oil should I use?
You can find this in the owner's manual. Otherwise, 75w90 or 80w90 will work fine. It is not necessary to use synthetic oil. Also if you have an auburn carrier you will need the limited slip additive.
14. How much gas mileage will I lose going up in ratio?
This question is going to depend on different things...such as whether your car is a manual or automatic, how big of a jump you made in gear ratio, and how much city and highway driving you do. However, it is pretty safe to say that the performance and fun-factor gains are going to be worth whatever miniscule gas mileage you may lose.
15. What's the difference between a 3 channel and 4 channel rear?
A three channel rear end has ABS. A 4 channel rear end has ABS and traction control. A 'channel' is just a way of describing the means for a speed sensor to gauge the wheel speed. On a 3 channel rear end, the two front wheels have sensors, and there is one sensor on top of the rear end housing that reads for the whole rear. On a 4 channel rear end, there is a speed sensor at every wheel. 4 channel rear ends have reluctor wheels on each axle, 3 channel rears have one big reluctor ring on the differential. Because a 4 channel has a sensor at each rear wheel it can see the difference in speed between one wheel and the other, and ta-da, you have traction control.
16. Will a 3 channel rear end work in my 4 channel car?
Yes, you can make it work, if you put the axles from your four channel car into the 3 channel rear end and install the sensors into the backing plate. To put a 4 series into a 3 series would be more difficult, because it would require you to drill in the top of the rear housing for the sensor, and add a reluctor ring to the carrier as well.
17. Can't I just edit ASR/ABS out of the PCM with tuning software?
No, it is controlled by the EBCM.
Last edited by keliente; 02-02-2009 at 10:08 PM.
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ramairjohn2000 (02-04-2022)
11-20-2005, 10:23 PM
#2
Excellent writeup, definitely sticky worthy. Feel free to add more items. We will update.
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2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2018 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 Pat G tuned.
LS1,LS2,LS3,LS7,LT1 Custom Camshaft Specialist For custom camshaft help press here.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
11-22-2005, 01:47 PM
#3
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Definitely a great writeup!
One thing is that I'm pretty sure that the 10-bolt gets its name from the 10 bolts holding the ring gear to the carrier rather than the 10 bolts holding the cover. FWIW.
One thing is that I'm pretty sure that the 10-bolt gets its name from the 10 bolts holding the ring gear to the carrier rather than the 10 bolts holding the cover. FWIW.
Last edited by Predator; 11-22-2005 at 02:21 PM.
11-22-2005, 04:24 PM
#4
What about........."Why wont the 10 or 12 bolt from my 77 camaro fit?"
Simple answer... No torque arm mount not to mention leaf springs instead of LCA and pan hard bar...
Or "I found a 9 inch in the junk yard for 50 bucks will it work?"
Yes and no... once again that pesky torque arm mount not to mention housing width suspension brackets axles...If your feeling up to a challenge and you have the tools(which will cost more than buying a bolt in housing) not to mention abality to convert such a peice then by all means go for it, when welding on a housing great care must be taken not to warp the housing due to heat this will cause loss of axle center line as well as camber and toe.... please contact a sponsor located over here--------------->
To find the best deals..
I'llthink of some more to add later Im pretty sure this forum will be empty if most questions are covered in this FAQ
Simple answer... No torque arm mount not to mention leaf springs instead of LCA and pan hard bar...
Or "I found a 9 inch in the junk yard for 50 bucks will it work?"
Yes and no... once again that pesky torque arm mount not to mention housing width suspension brackets axles...If your feeling up to a challenge and you have the tools(which will cost more than buying a bolt in housing) not to mention abality to convert such a peice then by all means go for it, when welding on a housing great care must be taken not to warp the housing due to heat this will cause loss of axle center line as well as camber and toe.... please contact a sponsor located over here--------------->
To find the best deals..
I'llthink of some more to add later Im pretty sure this forum will be empty if most questions are covered in this FAQ
11-22-2005, 04:52 PM
#5
Originally Posted by Predator
Definitely a great writeup!
One thing is that I'm pretty sure that the 10-bolt gets its name from the 10 bolts holding the ring gear to the carrier rather than the 10 bolts holding the cover. FWIW.
One thing is that I'm pretty sure that the 10-bolt gets its name from the 10 bolts holding the ring gear to the carrier rather than the 10 bolts holding the cover. FWIW.
11-22-2005, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by keliente
Hmmm, I can think of a couple dodge rear ends that have 10 bolts holding on their ring gears too...I just assumed it had to do with the cover
I read that in an online magazine, Chevy High Performance I think, so consider the source.
BTW, great job putting together your website too. I learned a lot, thanks.
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11-23-2005, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by keliente
Hmmm, I can think of a couple dodge rear ends that have 10 bolts holding on their ring gears too...I just assumed it had to do with the cover
http://hotrod.com/techarticles/84121/
11-24-2005, 10:31 PM
#11
Originally Posted by Predator
FWIW, here's an article in Hotrod where they talk about the diffs and why they are called 10 bolts or 12 bolts:
http://hotrod.com/techarticles/84121/
http://hotrod.com/techarticles/84121/
11-24-2005, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Predator
FWIW, here's an article in Hotrod where they talk about the diffs and why they are called 10 bolts or 12 bolts:
http://hotrod.com/techarticles/84121/
http://hotrod.com/techarticles/84121/
What about the 9 bolt BW axle, the GM 14 bolt 9.5 and 10.5? I just think it's up to the engineer, at the time of design, on how much seal need for the desired amount of time it is cycle tested. Gm did some odd combinations, 10 bolt cover with a 12 bolt ring gear. Why who knows? Maybe the person who engineered it has the answer.
Last edited by 1BAD86Z28; 11-25-2005 at 12:08 AM.
11-24-2005, 11:35 PM
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Originally Posted by keliente
3. What is a gear ratio, and how do I know what I have?
A gear ratio is the number of teeth on one gear compared to another. To find the ratio, you divide the number of teeth on the driven gear by the number of teeth on the driving gear. For instance, the number of teeth on a ring (driven) gear is 44. The number of teeth on a pinion (driving) gear is 10. 44 divided by 10 = 4.10.
A gear ratio is the number of teeth on one gear compared to another. To find the ratio, you divide the number of teeth on the driven gear by the number of teeth on the driving gear. For instance, the number of teeth on a ring (driven) gear is 44. The number of teeth on a pinion (driving) gear is 10. 44 divided by 10 = 4.10.
11-25-2005, 12:08 AM
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Originally Posted by ryansm1
I don't know a whole lot about rear ends, but 44/10 = 4.40, not 4.10.
11-25-2005, 12:14 AM
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What about........."Why wont the 10 or 12 bolt from my 77 camaro fit?"
Simple answer... No torque arm mount not to mention leaf springs instead of LCA and pan hard bar...
Or "I found a 9 inch in the junk yard for 50 bucks will it work?"
Yes and no... once again that pesky torque arm mount not to mention housing width suspension brackets axles...If your feeling up to a challenge and you have the tools(which will cost more than buying a bolt in housing) not to mention abality to convert such a peice then by all means go for it, when welding on a housing great care must be taken not to warp the housing due to heat this will cause loss of axle center line as well as camber and toe.... please contact a sponsor located over here--------------->
To find the best deals..
Simple answer... No torque arm mount not to mention leaf springs instead of LCA and pan hard bar...
Or "I found a 9 inch in the junk yard for 50 bucks will it work?"
Yes and no... once again that pesky torque arm mount not to mention housing width suspension brackets axles...If your feeling up to a challenge and you have the tools(which will cost more than buying a bolt in housing) not to mention abality to convert such a peice then by all means go for it, when welding on a housing great care must be taken not to warp the housing due to heat this will cause loss of axle center line as well as camber and toe.... please contact a sponsor located over here--------------->
To find the best deals..
I'd like more information and links as to how to make it worK!
11-25-2005, 02:50 AM
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Originally Posted by 1BAD86Z28
What about the 9 bolt BW axle, the GM 14 bolt 9.5 and 10.5? I just think it's up to the engineer, at the time of design, on how much seal need for the desired amount of time it is cycle tested. Gm did some odd combinations, 10 bolt cover with a 12 bolt ring gear. Why who knows? Maybe the person who engineered it has the answer.
11-25-2005, 03:17 AM
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Originally Posted by keliente
thanks, I edited it and put that in there. I guess I do count 10 now
I was able to relocate that Chevy Hi Performance article:
http://chevyhiperformance.com/techar...98/index1.html
11-25-2005, 08:43 PM
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11-26-2005, 12:15 AM
#20
Originally Posted by ryansm1
I don't know a whole lot about rear ends, but 44/10 = 4.40, not 4.10.
Thanks for bringing it to my attention though, I edited it.
Clearly, math > me!!! You are talking to someone who failed college algebra, after all.