Pontiac Firebird 1967-2002 - Ok..here we go...2009 Firebird?

I know some people are going to disagree but...
They have their new Camaro, and from what I can tell the response so far is overwhelming. Just try getting onto a website that has pictures of it! Talk about an overload of users.
So, I know its been said that the name Firebird is dead, but demand can change plans.
If Pontiac is to be the performance division, why can't there be a Firebird and GTO? The GTO can be a little bigger, the Firebird sportier, just as in the past.

do I here the begining of a petition to GM?

I dont think that the firebird and GTO can live together. But if the camaro makes a comeback I think the firebird coming back is inevitable

I'm thinking a FB could have a solid rear axle, t tops, a conv. version, and 2+2 seating, while the GTO has an irs, 5 seater, sunroof, nav...etc

make the FB more retro (not with T-bird or mustang syndrome) and the GTO more forward thinking, maybe an AWD option etc...

Both should share eng/trans options. The Zeta platform should give them alot of options in that respect.

yeah it would be nice, but i really don't see it happening while the GTO is around. hell i haven't even seen a new firebird concept or drawing, even though theres been a bunch of the camaro ones floatin around the past year or so..

First, let me say this: I love Firebirds. There is nothing more in the automotive world that I would like to see more than a new Firebird. That said:

It would be a terrible business decision on GM's part to bring back the Firebird with the current lineup of Pontiac cars. If they make it sporty, it competes with the Solstice. If they make it muscular, it competes with the GTO. Not to mention that there is a more sedan-like V8 powered Pontiac, the Grand Prix GXP. So if they make the GTO more of a larger car, the GTO ends up competing with the Grand Prix.

There are two ways I could see it being feasible. The first would be to drop the GTO altogether. This wouldn't be too bad of an idea, because even though it has improved, there is still a bad taste left in a lot of people's mouths from its debut. Starting with a clean slate with the Firebird would give GM a chance to get things right this time. The second would be to extend the GTO and make it a 4-door car to compete with the Charger while the Camaro/Firebird would compete with the Mustang and Challenger. However, for this to work the best they would also have to make the GTO and GXP more different from each other, maybe make the GXP more of a luxurious car than the GTO so it would compete more with entry-level luxury cars like the IS350, BMW 330, etc. (of course those are all rear-wheel drive).

First, let me say this: I love Firebirds. There is nothing more in the automotive world that I would like to see more than a new Firebird. That said:

It would be a terrible business decision on GM's part to bring back the Firebird with the current lineup of Pontiac cars. If they make it sporty, it competes with the Solstice. If they make it muscular, it competes with the GTO. Not to mention that there is a more sedan-like V8 powered Pontiac, the Grand Prix GXP. So if they make the GTO more of a larger car, the GTO ends up competing with the Grand Prix.

There are two ways I could see it being feasible. The first would be to drop the GTO altogether. This wouldn't be too bad of an idea, because even though it has improved, there is still a bad taste left in a lot of people's mouths from its debut. Starting with a clean slate with the Firebird would give GM a chance to get things right this time. The second would be to extend the GTO and make it a 4-door car to compete with the Charger while the Camaro/Firebird would compete with the Mustang and Challenger. However, for this to work the best they would also have to make the GTO and GXP more different from each other, maybe make the GXP more of a luxurious car than the GTO so it would compete more with entry-level luxury cars like the IS350, BMW 330, etc. (of course those are all rear-wheel drive).

I agree.....I think what GM will end up doing is basing the new Camaro off the GTO platform ( costs and production speed- market time ) dropping the GTO in 09 and bring the Bird back in 2010....the new Camaro could be out in 07 as a 08...2 years later the Bird will fly again

Didn't GM retire the Firebird/Trans AM name though?

They are basing the Camaro off the GTO's platform, and I know they won't make a Firebird and GTO. Maybe we'll see a new GTO at the time the Camaro comes out..

The GTO is already designed to compete with BMW. That's their whole idea of bringing it back, as said by Jim Wangers himself. And, IMO, that's also why sales haven't been so great for the new goat. If they designed/marketed it toward true Pontiac enthusiasts and muscle car lovers, it would have absolutely skyrocketed. That being said, my Pontiac mags all say that GM has killed the zeta platform as of 07, or 08, I don't remember which. The zeta, as we know, is the GTO platform. The GTO is already a 2+2, not a 5 seater. I do agree, that if GM brings back BOTH f-bodies, they should absolutely compete with the muskrat and challenger. I really hope they don't make another mistake and design it to compete out of it's niche, like they did with the GTO. The goat was the grandaddy of all muscle cars....having it go toe to toe with a beamer is just wrong. I think there is enough room in GM to have both a goat and f body, but I know it won't happen. The reason chevy/pontiac have dropped so many models over the past 2 years is to cut back on their variety and concentrate on a smaller market.

I say get rid of the GTO in its current iteration, and make it a top of the line option on a rear drive redesign of the Grand Prix. Have the base model Grand Prix, the GXP, and the top out muscle model as a GTO...Maybe even go one step further and have the GTO be to the Grand Prix what the STi is to the WRX (a stripped version with balls to the wall performance and fewer "creature comforts") By doing that it allows for a Firebird to be built along side a new Camaro without destroying the market on the Solstice, Grand Prix or the GTO.

Welp, they'll either have to be built in Quebec, or GM will have to cough up $2.2 billion to buy back the rights to the name, from what I hear. This all stems from why 4th-gen F-bodies were built in Canada(does that make them imports???). IF they do that, I'd like to see something more forward-looking, to be honest. I mean, this whole retro thing is cool now, but what'll happen when people get tired of it? Sales of retro cars will plummet. I'd love to see GM pick up where they left off with the Firebird. Maybe smooth out the nose a bit, put a REAL solid rearend in it... I can't think of much more I'd do to it at the moment... LS1 Formulas and T/As just look like rolling muscles to me.

I say bring it back. To have a camaro you need its evil twin the trans am. Yeah theres the problem with the GTO if they bring it back. But check this make a concept of it something like the camaro but a nice one. If the GTO sales within the next few years drop consistently then drop it all together and build the firebird. Make it its own car nothing to resemble the camaro in any way shape or form. I want something that has that get the fuck out my way before i ram you in the back look. A look that screams muscle car, something that will make people see the new challenger and say "thats a challenger" yet look at the firebird and say "shit thats a badass trans am". I see retro for some reason losing steam by the time the camaro comes out. So drop that shit already and come out with a body design which will have other automakers follow.
-Joel

How about this?

How about this?

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=51999

That's pretty clever! :)

^^^^^^^ That I like :)

now thats a car, they should def come out with something that looks identical to that :) lol

man i got COncept and REAL TRANSAM photo! not picture:)

i cant find another picture but it looks like 5th will be look like f body s

what the hell? that looks real! like they actually built one. what is that thing? is it really coming out? WHY WASNT I INFORMED OF THIS!

i cant find another picture but it looks like 5th will be look like f body s

That's a Pontiac concept car from a few years ago. It's not a Firebird concept car.

thats the Rageous you idiots. :jest:

So does that mean the 98-02 t/a's will drop in price?

So does that mean the 98-02 t/a's will drop in price?

if they DON'T make a new T/A, which I don't expect them to... the current ones will likely go up

if they DON'T make a new T/A, which I don't expect them to... the current ones will likely go up

LS1 TA's aren't going to go up in price for a long time.

I really like that first 5th gen TA pic. Looks way better than the 5th gen Camaro.

I think the firebird stands at least a small chance. If Pontaic decides they want a V8 to compliment their Solstice GXP on their performance roster they'll probably use a Trans Am which in turn will be complimented by the V6 Firebird that actually makes sales. Either way the GTO won't be around much longer... and thats what makes me think the firebird stands a small chance.

I honestly don't see why they wouldn't bring back the Firebird, if you look at the sales figures for the 05 GTO, the 02 WS6 (just the WS6) outsold it, so if they want sales why not just dump the GTO and bring back the Firebird, if they want to differentiate it from the Camaro, they could do a more modern style, instead of the retro inspired Camaro,
Then you appeal to the people who want a modern styled car and the Camaro takes care of the retro lovers

LS1 TA's aren't going to go up in price for a long time.

after selling cars over the past 3 years, I've seen a slight increase with them. they used to sell for loan value, now it's close to retail at auctions. folks jump all over them at the auctions now, when they used to not.

Heres what I want to see out of a new TA
http://www.municipalmechanical.com/ps/firebirdconcept11.jpg
http://www.municipalmechanical.com/ps/firebirdconcept2.jpg
http://www.municipalmechanical.com/ps/firebirdconcept7.jpg
http://www.municipalmechanical.com/ps/firebirdconcept9.jpg


red and orange both WITHOUT T-tops
http://www.municipalmechanical.com/ps/firebirdconceptred.jpg
http://www.municipalmechanical.com/ps/firebirdconceptorange.jpg

The firebird won't be coming back anytime soon. The GTO is goin got be redesigned into something more appealing, something like the Camaro I assume, so I don't see it coming back. :cry:

4 bloody doors.......junk....

The picture of the black T/A in page one of this thread is beautiful! I think it would be a great car to carry on the Trans Am name, however I don't think it has much of a chance at production.

As above stated the GTO has been pretty much chosen to fly the Pontiac performance banner. Personally I would rather see another T/A instead of a GTO, no offense to anyone who likes or owns a current Goat.

In terms of sales volume I still think the 4th gen outsold the current GTO, although I could be wrong. It's all about presenting a solid business case to produce the car. At this stage of the game I don't know if such a business case exists. I do, however, think that if the Camaro is a success it improves Firebirds chance at being produced.

Thoughts?

Make the Black firebird done on the first page and I'll be first in line. Shit my GF just looked at that and said... damn if they made that I would want one too!!!
Ron H.

How bout this one?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v42/Ateyate/trans_am.jpg

good work on that one. I like the headlgihts and grille alot, but Id like to see the lower valance different from the camaro

Ateyate, can we get some links to high-res shots of that if you have any?

Ateyate, can we get some links to high-res shots of that if you have any?

Sorry thats all i have, it was emailed to me. :cheers:

dude u shit to my picture which is a real PONTIAC concept.. But all of you say new firebird will have NEW CAMARO chasis... is it possible? you just make up new CAMARO and sent it like new pontiac....
I think mine is looks more real... if i find picture about 5th generation firebird i will send it

and i think new porject is absolutely this.. not firebird..

am i the only one that cant make sense out of the two posts above me??

am i the only one that cant make sense out of the two posts above me??
lol no i think hes on something?he makes no sense:confused: :jest:

even his post a page or two back, maykes no sense...dyslexia is terrible.

Let's keep this nice guys....

id pick up that Bandit T/A if they build them but as it stands now, there will be a new Dodge sitting in the garage come 2008..:D

Well I think there's going to be a new CHEVY in my garage in 08/09 :drive:

That is of course unless there's a BIRD..... :(

and i think new porject is absolutely this.. not firebird..

Sentence Structure+Grammar > You

How bout this one?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v42/Ateyate/trans_am.jpg

I like this design the best so far! The Black and Gold one in page one is nice, but not that detailed!

Very nice! Thanks to all who have contributed. As someone mentioned though - I would like to see Pontiac move forward with a more modern design if indeed the TA is revived. A retro look Camaro probably does justice for Camaro enthusiasts - but I think there will be more than enough modern retro-muscle cars available in the market place and that a design that leans toward the future but is still capable of paying respect to the heritage of the Firebird/TA would make for a better chance of GM actually producing both models again.

In White Looks Almost like my 1970 Scale model.

Very nice! Thanks to all who have contributed. As someone mentioned though - I would like to see Pontiac move forward with a more modern design if indeed the TA is revived. A retro look Camaro probably does justice for Camaro enthusiasts - but I think there will be more than enough modern retro-muscle cars available in the market place and that a design that leans toward the future but is still capable of paying respect to the heritage of the Firebird/TA would make for a better chance of GM actually producing both models again.


I agree...unforunately it probably would not be justified financially, as since day 1 of the firebird/trans am it has always been based on the camaro, and needs to keep and over shape thats siimilar. Otherwise a firebird/trans am wont last very long because it wont make enough money to pay to complete engineer/build a new car

How bout this one?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v42/Ateyate/trans_am.jpg

I really like this one. I have owned over 10 3rd gens and still own 3 3rd gens(2 GTA's and 1 IROC) and I own 1 4th gen. I love Trans Am's,but come on guy's.......the firebird or Trans Am is not comming back. GM is not going to pay to carry a TRANS AM name tag when they can just throw the GTO name badge on it for free. Pontiac's version of the camaro will be called a GTO

I really like this one. I have owned over 10 3rd gens and still own 3 3rd gens(2 GTA's and 1 IROC) and I own 1 4th gen. I love Trans Am's,but come on guy's.......the firebird or Trans Am is not comming back. GM is not going to pay to carry a TRANS AM name tag when they can just throw the GTO name badge on it for free. Pontiac's version of the camaro will be called a GTO

Dont they already own the trademark? Or have they allowed it to expire?

Very nice! Thanks to all who have contributed. As someone mentioned though - I would like to see Pontiac move forward with a more modern design if indeed the TA is revived. A retro look Camaro probably does justice for Camaro enthusiasts - but I think there will be more than enough modern retro-muscle cars available in the market place and that a design that leans toward the future but is still capable of paying respect to the heritage of the Firebird/TA would make for a better chance of GM actually producing both models again.

I agree. The TA went wth an aggressive aero design in the '80s and hasn't looked back since. I think they should keep going in that direction; especially to prevent the duplication across brands that has plagued GM in the past. Similar to what they've done with the C6 Corvette.

Dont they already own the trademark? Or have they allowed it to expire?

I'd say the SCCA officially owns the trademark. For every Trans Am built, GM paid the SCCA $5.00 for allowing them to use the "Trans Am" name.

So up the cost to consumers by $5.00 :P
Seriously, I wouldn't care if the firebird was $5.00 more than the Camaro - I'd buy it anyway. On a > $20k car, who cares about $5.00?

So up the cost to consumers by $5.00 :P
Seriously, I wouldn't care if the firebird was $5.00 more than the Camaro - I'd buy it anyway. On a > $20k car, who cares about $5.00?

Exactly. Well said.

Maybe GM just ships the camaro over to SLP or ASC OR GMMG or ???

They in turn make the T/A .


i know i have had 10 T/A s and want a new one. :nod: :nod:

http://www.millstonegraphics.com/transam/transamconceptSE.jpg


That was done by a guy named Kevin Morgan (http://www.millstonegraphics.com/transam/taconcept.html)

http://www.transamcountry.com/what_if.htm

The other renderings in this thread are also nice. Honestly, all they need to do is take the Camaro, change it into a pontiac, and call it a Trans Am. It's that simple. Then on the same platform, build the Grand Prix, and call the LS2 or LS4 version the GTO. Or get rid of the Grand Prix moniker and instead of calling it the G8, call it the GTO.

What ever the out come I hope they make it in t-tops and convertible and
Faster than top of the line mustang and chargers
:burn:

Hello,
First off I am new to this forum,but I have owned 10 of, what I believe to be one of ,if not THE best car ever, the Firebird.
Disgusting isn't even a comparable word to describe my feelings towards the end of the mighty Bird,does any one know why,was it because of Chevy's constant whinning about the Bird?
In any case it is stupid,sure I was happy about the GTO,but at the sacrifice of the Bird?why not discontinue the grand am instead?
I'M sure that I will make a lot of Chevy fans peeved (even though according to an old article dated 1966 the Firebird was in design stages BEFORE the camaro.anybody remember the banshee/look at it,and look at the 70's birds even the 4th gen birds)I would have rather seen the corvette go instead.
At this point Im almost ranting-sorry it just makes my blood boil,so I will share with you all the 10 cars I've owned.
1976 Firebird espirit.
1967 Firebird deluxe?.
1978 Formula.
1978 Formula.
1977 T/A.
1978 T/A.
1985 T/A.
1984 base model.
1981 Formula.
1982 T/A. ( possibly a bandit/knight rider)
That last one I'm not sure about because it has a bandit/recarro package minus the seats but it is NOT a recarro,nor does it have t -tops (yes there were some bandits w/o t-tops)it does have a small bird on the nose factory posi,air,am/fm cassette,recarro/bandit wheels (no center pieces though),and three seperate factory drill spots where some kind of badge or emblem was.
If any one has any ideas I would appreciate it,thanks for listening,and I'd love to hear more stories on your guy's past /present Birds.

They discontinued the bird cause the camaro was discontinued. They're the same car with a different front and rear fascia ;) (I'm sure there are a bunch of smaller differences too, but those are the main ones)

I photoshopped the original rendering of this concept in above postings and modified it to a 67-68 style front end. Let me know what you all think...


http://mundo.com/concept_ta.jpg

kid, yeah now that's what I'm talking about! Stupid thing is that Trans Am was never considered a threat to the Camaro, GM used both to take sales from the Mustang and others. No reason not to again. I think GM is underestimating the actual depth of passion of the American car guy for the Trans Am. Like I said, I loved the old GTO's, but I'm 27, my muscle car is the Firebird, bring it back.

http://www.millstonegraphics.com/transam/transamconceptSE.jpg


That was done by a guy named Kevin Morgan (http://www.millstonegraphics.com/transam/taconcept.html)

http://www.transamcountry.com/what_if.htm

The other renderings in this thread are also nice. Honestly, all they need to do is take the Camaro, change it into a pontiac, and call it a Trans Am. It's that simple. Then on the same platform, build the Grand Prix, and call the LS2 or LS4 version the GTO. Or get rid of the Grand Prix moniker and instead of calling it the G8, call it the GTO.

I'll take one of these in SOM!!!!!!!

That black rendering is just plain awesome. I'd get one.

The only thing I can say is wrong with it is the hood is a touch flat, and the side vents should be up higher, that way they could be used for evacuating the engine compartment. (and the wheels are oversized, but that's just common place anymore)

I loved his '69 rendering too. That was simply awesome.

sign me up for the waiting list!!!


hah, new photoshopped pics of the car look awesome... i think gm should bring the t/a back...

Dan

I think GM is a bunch of fucking idiots if they let the Trans Am die. The challenger is back the charger is back (not like many wanted it to look but its back), the mustang is still here, the camaro is coming back. Yes the muscle car wars are starting all over again but they are not the same unless the Trans Am is in the mix to fuck it all up.
-Joel

Im sure i missed something, but the last thing i read (3 or 4 months ago) said that 06 was the last run for the GTO, is that false now?

Im sure i missed something, but the last thing i read (3 or 4 months ago) said that 06 was the last run for the GTO, is that false now?

Last run for the Aussie Built GTO, the next gen will be American built. No more Holden GTO.

Does anybody have anything to say about the fact that none of these renderings have pop-up headlights? Well, I do. I think that they add to the appeal of the Firebird, making it a much sleeker machine than the Camaro. I'd love to see someone draw up a Firebird with them.

Does anybody have anything to say about the fact that none of these renderings have pop-up headlights? Well, I do. I think that they add to the appeal of the Firebird, making it a much sleeker machine than the Camaro. I'd love to see someone draw up a Firebird with them.

I understand and partially feel the same way. But look at what GM did for us firebird guys with the lights, no one makes sealed beam lights anymore. They stuck us with old technology. Also look at the 'vette, it moved away from the pop up lights because people were already swapping them for the staionary lights, just like the C5R. If you look at the race cars, lots of the technology is transferred back down to the production cars because it is an easy way to do market research. If it fails, well, it's a race car, so it's supposed to be different. If it succeeds and is popular, they know what direction to go with.

I'd love a new generation of Firebirds, but only time will tell.

They stuck us with old tech, but they didn't have to. Many people assume that flip up = sealed beam. It doesn't.

Also, with the retro look being gone for in these ideas, they have to be exposed as it's either a 1st or 2nd Gen retro, both of which were exposed.

But yes, flip up is much better. It's what a sports car is supposed to be. Exposed is just so pedestrian - or passenger car, as the case may be.

The C6/C6R may have to use the same thing and the C6R does a lot of 24hour racing which needs the lights on while racing. For ANYthing else, if you are concerned about high speed drag with the lights open, then quite simply, you are driving too bloody fast at night anyway.

Ive had third and fourth generation firebirds and I hate pop up headlights. and i disagree, its NOT "what a sports car is supposed to be" thank god the c6 got nice lights.

besides....a firebird is not a sports car. its a muscle or pony car.

personnally I think the new C6 is not even something I would consider getting. The headlights ruined it for me plain and simple but if they recessed the lights just enough to put a sliding body colored cover to cover it I would be more interested. That is just me though.

Greg

personnally I think the new C6 is not even something I would consider getting. The headlights ruined it for me plain and simple but if they recessed the lights just enough to put a sliding body colored cover to cover it I would be more interested. That is just me though.

Greg

Exactly. The C6 is absolutely hideous. They ruined the car with that sedan crap.

you can honestly tell me this is hideous?
http://img457.imageshack.us/img457/1277/picture0123pj.jpg

This is a thread about a possible new Trans Am. Let's not get too far off topic....

well it is bird related. were debating over which headlights would look best on it. the picture posted of the corvette is an example that the car can look good without flip up headlights.

Ive had third and fourth generation firebirds and I hate pop up headlights. and i disagree, its NOT "what a sports car is supposed to be" thank god the c6 got nice lights.

besides....a firebird is not a sports car. its a muscle or pony car.


Just out of curiousity, who buys a T/A that hates pop-up headlights? They go hand in hand. It's like buying a Miata while disliking convertibles. Unless you had a bad experience with them or something, maybe you should've bought a Camaro.

pop up headlights arent the only thing different in terms of styling cues, between a camaro and a firebird.
And in both cases i was in school and didnt have money to be picky choosey about whether i bought a camaro or firebird. I just wanted an f-body. there are also things I dislike about a camaro. there are things that I will dislike about any car, doesnt mean i cant buy them. not everything is so cut and dry, thanks.

and to compare buying a car with pop up headlights that you dislike to a CONVERTIBLE which you dislike is retarded. its not the same, i can drive around and not notice the pop up headlights unless i get out of the car and look at it. the convertible is a major differene and its something thats hard to deal with if you dont want it. on your ownership under "body type" my car doesnt say pop up headlights (because it doesnt matter), but it would say convertible if it was.

I agree.. The Firebird cannot co-exist with the GTO... There would be 3 cars fighting the same market from one company Camaro (if made), Firebird, and the GTO. NOT going to happen. I think the GTO has had its chance, and should be phazed out to the TA. Just my opinion...

QUOTE=FlyinLow89]you can honestly tell me this is hideous?
http://img457.imageshack.us/img457/1277/picture0123pj.jpg[/QUOTE]

Nope, but the headlights distract from the overall appeal of the car imo. The Corvette is a smooth car whos body lines flow but the eye tends to stop at the headlights. They have become a focal point and thats what I dislike about them.

well it is bird related. were debating over which headlights would look best on it. the picture posted of the corvette is an example that the car can look good without flip up headlights.

No, it is not. It's not a Corvette anymore. The last proper Corvette, in terms of styling, was the C5. Dave Hill ruined the car - visually. The fact that he made a world beater, performace-wise, does not excuse the crime commited to America's Sports Car.

Aside form being, visually, just another boring passenger car, and an ugly one at that - it looks like a damned camaro. Talk about insult to injury.

I agree.. The Firebird cannot co-exist with the GTO... There would be 3 cars fighting the same market from one company Camaro (if made), Firebird, and the GTO. NOT going to happen. I think the GTO has had its chance, and should be phazed out to the TA. Just my opinion...

There would NOT be 3 cars competing for the same market.

We are not camaro people. Why is this so hard for everyone on this site to understand? (I'm not singling you out, this is an ongoing thing) Eliminating the Firebird will not drive us to camaros. It will drive us to the used market, and to competitors. I'll buy a Mustang before I ever touch a camaro.

Furthermore, the 2 cars were, apparently, never seen under this ridiculous and foundless notion so prevalent on this forum. GM management saw only "F-Body", and spun it multiple ways to catch more market share and take sales away from the Mustang. Read that again - they never competed with each other, only the Mustang.

Once the chassis and power train have been developed, crash tested, and EPA cleared, it takes nothing to spend a few hours working on a new exterior look. Then composite body panels can be pressed out in no time for no significiant cost, and on an as ordered basis.

Sell 100,000 Firebirds, or 1,000, doesn't matter. No loss incurred because of JIT (Just in Time) production (aka, only when specifically ordered by a customer).

GTO - 5 seat luxo model. Hardtop only, more "upright" appearance and longer overhangs to give appearance of a larger car (it SHOULD be larger). Full luxury appointments inside, sat-nav, the whole 9. Only option - Maual or Auto. Suspension tuned for ride with performance as a secondary. Possibly with a "sport mode" switch. Market - BMW 3-Series, etc.

Firebird - Drop the base model, have only Trans-Am and Firebird Formula. As usual, slightly different noses and wings (and maybe hoods), with the T/A being the meanest. Formula is the stripper - no leather, no convertible, only manual or auto, stereo or no, AC or not, T-Tops or not (not being standard in all cases). T/A, Standard with T-Tops, leather, power everything, AC, biggest stereo, and manual - delete options for all the above plus a 'vert option if the chassis (camaro) offers one, but no sat-nav or anything of the sort. Formula - suspension tuned for drag racing. T/A - suspension tuned for road course racing. Target market - Pony car.

All 3 could be made only when ordered, or, the GTO could be the one shipped to showrooms and stocked and the Firebirds be something like a COPO car.

No, it is not. It's not a Corvette anymore. The last proper Corvette, in terms of styling, was the C5. Dave Hill ruined the car - visually. The fact that he made a world beater, performace-wise, does not excuse the crime commited to America's Sports Car.

Aside form being, visually, just another boring passenger car, and an ugly one at that - it looks like a damned camaro. Talk about insult to injury.

Uh, i'm sorry but I couldnt DIS-agree with you more.

I asked to keep this nice. I also asked to keep it on topic.

Griping about the styling of the Corvette IS way off topic. I can see this is starting to get out of hand...