Dynamometer Results & Comparisons - TR220, two dynos, two tunes

Well I had this done last summer but I thought this would be good for conversation.

Last spring after I added an ls6 intake, headers, catted y and a tr220 cam. I had the car tuned at DRM. Everything seemed fine but the car would surge and not idle for squat. Long story short after 4 months, 6 return trips, a new iac, and o/2 sims (which I did not need!) he still could not get the idle set. :bang:

I gave up and went to Hitech. They spent an hour tweaking the tune and fixed the idle. I went back for a complete tune on the dyno later as I did not trust the work done at DRM.

As the dyno sheets show I picked up 6 rwhp and 3 rwtq from the second tune. The baseline he did before adjusting was the same as on the prior dyno.

The most interesting thing though is that I picked up quite a bit of torque in the low rpm's. I have 350 rwtq at 3000 rpm on the second tune. I only had 325 rwtq at 3600 rpm on the first tune.

I did the cam intake and headers at the same time so it is hard for me to say what I picked up from the cam itself. I had the car tuned at DRM the spring before and had 293 rwhp and 314 rwtq. So I picked up 66 rwhp and 40 rwtq from the mods.

I personally think this is a great street cam, a huge flat torque curve and peak hp right before the red line.

Anyways I thought you guys would find this interesting. The lesson I learned is that the tune has a lot to do with the results on the dyno and that not all tuners are created equal. :)


http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b127/fasteddyss/DRMDyno.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b127/fasteddyss/Dyno-Hitech.jpg

jeezzzz...thats a flat torque curve!!! i bet that feels good on the street.

torque curve looks good and I am sure you can feel that :)

I do think the A/F is a bit on the lean side .

I do think the A/F is a bit on the lean side .


Really? where should it be?

What are the consequences of it being lean??

your reading the DMR graph wrong, the scales are different. at 3600rpm you've got 340rwtq, not 325.

So, the TR220 runs up to 6000 rpm. Interesting.

Looks about right. My 220 did well for me....

your reading the DMR graph wrong, the scales are different. at 3600rpm you've got 340rwtq, not 325.


You are correct, my mistake.

The torque curve on the second graph is still considerable improved though.

You are correct, my mistake.

The torque curve on the second graph is still considerable improved though.

Are we looking at the same thing? If the scale was the same on both graphs I think they would be virtually identical (give or take 4 ftlbs-dyno variation). Torque is incrementing by 10FTLBS in the first graph and 50 in the second, thats why the second looks table-top-flat.

The scales may be different but the torque curves are far from identical.

The horizontal reference lines don't really show up in the first scan.

The first dyno shows under 340 rwtq at 3600, the second one shows almost 350 at the same rpm.

The first tune does not break 350rwtq until 4700, the second one does at 3200, granted it does go up and down, but is never as low as340rwtq.

It is quite evident that the second tune produced more torque at a lower rpm.

It's too bad they were not printed out in the same way, they would be easier to compare.

I forgot I had this. This is before and after tuning at the second shop.

I must add though this is after the second shop played with my tune to fix the idle and other things that were not right that they could see in the tune.

The car felt much stronger after that initial tweak from the second shop.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b127/fasteddyss/DualDyno.jpg

I think its too lean. Especially since it is on a dynojet. It would be interesting to see the A/F ratio on the street with a wideband when you have wind resistance, hills, and an overall higher load on the motor.

I think its too lean. Especially since it is on a dynojet. It would be interesting to see the A/F ratio on the street with a wideband when you have wind resistance, hills, and an overall higher load on the motor.

How much too lean??

Will that cause any problems??

How much too lean??

Will that cause any problems??


Looks like you are right at 13.2afr. Many have run leaner; you should not have any problems... Did your tuner scan for KR???

I have my own Wideband installed and my results never differ more than .2 from the dyno sensor...

:lurk:

I think you're riding the line but you'll be fine with that AFR. It is also important to make sure you didn't have any knock during your runs.

whats the specs on the cam? I put down about 10 more hp and 14 f lbs of torque. My cam is 218 228 560 lift 113 lsa. Every on tells me that is really good for a mild cam. and they can't beleave its putting out that much on stock heads. Your running lean I would fix that even if there is no knock. I got more power with a 12.8 afr. You might gain a few hp by doing that and some torque.

Looks like you learned a lesson about tuner's. Showing that the "dyno" #'s are pretty much the same but you feel the difference in the tune. The first shop didn't know how to tune idle,midrange,throttle response and could only do WOT timing/A/f. The second shop did the tune correct which is why the car feels so much better. I'm expecting that the 220 Cam idle's/drives pretty much like a stock car except a big improvement in throttle response and power. :)

whats the specs on the cam? I put down about 10 more hp and 14 f lbs of torque. My cam is 218 228 560 lift 113 lsa. Every on tells me that is really good for a mild cam. and they can't beleave its putting out that much on stock heads. Your running lean I would fix that even if there is no knock. I got more power with a 12.8 afr. You might gain a few hp by doing that and some torque.
After some good tuning, I put down 367 RWHP on my old TR220.

not bad. did you have the ls6 intake? when you got that number? I'm still got my stock 98 intake. Looking for an ls6 one people tell me its good for about 15rwhp.

not bad. did you have the ls6 intake? when you got that number? I'm still got my stock 98 intake. Looking for an ls6 one people tell me its good for about 15rwhp. Yeah, LS6 Intake and just about all boltons. No stall yet thoough

Looks like his afr still could be better. I wouldn't go past 13.2 afr scares me. 12.8 you will get better torque # 12.2 is best for hp

Timing and A/F work together. You can run 14-1 A/F with the correct timing for it.Optimal 12.8-1 is a myth.

Thats just what works best with my car. I'm at 26 degrees timing with a 12.8 afr If I try to change it the car loses power. I would add more fuel if it was me and then add timing if need. But ever car is different. I would just try it and see if it would add a few hp.

Thats just what works best with my car. I'm at 26 degrees timing with a 12.8 afr If I try to change it the car loses power. I would add more fuel if it was me and then add timing if need. But ever car is different. I would just try it and see if it would add a few hp.

Here is the question. Is your car the fastest at 26 degree's timing and 12.8 A/F ? It may make the best Dyno hp but does it run the fastest at that?
Just making a point.I thought the highest dyno hp would be the fastest until we spent a ton of time at the track. The results were very surprising. :)

I can't tell you that. because I haven't had it to the track after the tune. was tuned 3 week ago. We Just got the car running right. I already got your point. I had it really close but had 6 degrees to much timing. I even backed it of to about 24 degrees and ran like a dog. I don't go to the track but once a month. All i know is my low track light has never come on and stayed on though 3 gears and after the tune it does. I was just trying to help the guy out is all. Not to have someone that knows it all jump my case.

I can't tell you that. because I haven't had it to the track after the tune. was tuned 3 week ago. We Just got the car running right. I already got your point. I had it really close but had 6 degrees to much timing. I even backed it of to about 24 degrees and ran like a dog. I don't go to the track but once a month. All i know is my low track light has never come on and stayed on though 3 gears and after the tune it does. I was just trying to help the guy out is all. Not to have someone that knows it all jump my case.

LOL,Not jumping your case. I did go alittle off track though to make a point that A/F is different for every car :)

Sorry for the hijack.All that matter's is that the car is running good :)

No hard feelings here.

Hello,
Nice numbers. A few questions if you do not mind.
1. Is this the 112 or 114 LSA cam?
2. Is it installed with 4deg advance?
3. Should it not make power above 6000rpm?
4. Is there noticeable lope at ideal?(what rpm idle 800?)

Well the power of search has resurrected this old thread of mine I see.

The main thing I learned and wanted to share my experience about was exactly what slowhawk noted:Looks like you learned a lesson about tuner's. Showing that the "dyno" #'s are pretty much the same but you feel the difference in the tune. The first shop didn't know how to tune idle,midrange,throttle response and could only do WOT timing/A/f. The second shop did the tune correct which is why the car feels so much better. I'm expecting that the 220 Cam idle's/drives pretty much like a stock car except a big improvement in throttle response and power

That pretty much sums it up. The difference in idle quality, driveability and feel of power was night and day between the two tunes.

The specs are 220/220 551/551 on a 112 LSA. I wanted the 112 LSA cam to keep my low end grunt, and it has delivered that. I installed it straight up with no advance.

There is a noticeable lope at idle, but only to people who know about such things. Your wife, grandma or dentist will never notice. It idles at stock rpm 750?, it is stored for winter right now or I would check.

The cam peaked at about 5800. I believe this is typical for a cam with similar specs.

All in all this has been a good street cam for me. I would not go much bigger in a daily driver myself, although many have. I have put over 20k on the car with this setup and have been pleased.

the hitech graph is almost identical to my old T1 221/221 one cam from a long ago.

The first dyno may not have used SAE correction. If true, you cannot compare numbers if improperly operated, even on the same dyno two days apart. It appears that tne second dyno did. The close numbers between the two dynos could be coincidental.

On dynos that you cannot simulate actual load to an engine, you can tune more lean with more ign timing advance. However, when you take it to the track you may have to retune for optimum performance. We have often demonstrated that on our dyno by turning the load control off to simulate an inertia dyno, tuning the vehicle for that ragged edge, then turning on the vehicle simulation load and watching the power decrease dramatically due to knock retard, etc. Good DJ operators are aware of this and try to compensate after getting good numbers.

I am just surprised that it was DRM that didn't do the tune correctly.