Please, help with adding fuel.
04-05-2003, 10:09 PM
#1
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Please, help with adding fuel. I have just installed a Procharger and in the process of tuning it. I am running lean at around 65% throttle. I am reading this with a wideband, which reads 14.3-14.9 cruising. However, as soon as I start to roll in it it stays at this reading. I am afraid to deck it before I get this done.
I tried using the injector offset map but it does not help out at this throttle. I have also tried using the injector flow but, I am having no luck with that. I have done a search and this is what I have read to add fuel. Help me, please.
I tried using the injector offset map but it does not help out at this throttle. I have also tried using the injector flow but, I am having no luck with that. I have done a search and this is what I have read to add fuel. Help me, please.
04-05-2003, 11:48 PM
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Re: Please, help with adding fuel. I forgot to mention, I am installing the wideband into the bank2sensor2 spot. Would this have any effect on the fuel, even if it never goes into closed loop?
04-06-2003, 02:18 PM
#3
Re: Please, help with adding fuel. Need to know more information.
How much boost
What size injectors
What fuel pump
How much HP (rouhgly)
What kind of car/truck
You should be using the PE table to effect your WOT timing. Using the injector offset curve is no good. Make sure that you are using the stock IO curve. Using the injector Flow rate curve will effect fueling (you have to shift the curve down to add fuel) but it will mess up your cruising fueling if you play with it too much. Use the PE table to adjust your fueling.
Good Luck,
Kevin
How much boost
What size injectors
What fuel pump
How much HP (rouhgly)
What kind of car/truck
You should be using the PE table to effect your WOT timing. Using the injector offset curve is no good. Make sure that you are using the stock IO curve. Using the injector Flow rate curve will effect fueling (you have to shift the curve down to add fuel) but it will mess up your cruising fueling if you play with it too much. Use the PE table to adjust your fueling.
Good Luck,
Kevin
04-06-2003, 10:59 PM
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Re: Please, help with adding fuel. Truck, 6.0, Lucas 42lb injectors, Comp 212/218@114, Headers, Procharger D-1SC, 8lb pulley, intank 255, inline pump(it comes with the blower, and 450 to 550rwhp(I think).
I started over with my tune and left the IO curve alone. I just started playing with the Injector Flow Rate map. I did some more searchs and found that you posted the IFR map. 0-10:WOT, 15-35: spirited driving, and so on.
Can I just adjust this cells by that grouping? More part throttle fuel would be 15-35? Mutilipy the PE table to add fuel at WOT? Should I lower the PE enrichment RPM?
Thank GOD for your help.
<small>[ April 06, 2003, 11:08 PM: Message edited by: StupidFast ]</small>
I started over with my tune and left the IO curve alone. I just started playing with the Injector Flow Rate map. I did some more searchs and found that you posted the IFR map. 0-10:WOT, 15-35: spirited driving, and so on.
Can I just adjust this cells by that grouping? More part throttle fuel would be 15-35? Mutilipy the PE table to add fuel at WOT? Should I lower the PE enrichment RPM?
Thank GOD for your help.
<small>[ April 06, 2003, 11:08 PM: Message edited by: StupidFast ]</small>
04-06-2003, 11:47 PM
#5
Re: Please, help with adding fuel. I am going to assume that your truck uses power enrichement.
To drop your air/fuel to the mid 11's, you are going to have to multiply your PE table by 109%.
If your truck is not of the power enrichement type (avalanche etc...) then you are going to have to kick it to open loop (multiply the closed loop enable temperature by 200%) and drop your injector flow rate table accordingly by about 12% (multiply by 88%).
You have to be careful about shifting your PE table too much in different areas. If it starts to look too much like a spagetti noodle, then it is going to cause surging.
With a blower, it is defiantly worth the time to get your fueling figured out before you get on it. With 8 psi, procharger, I would try to plant your a/f between 11.5 and 12.1
Good Luck,
Kevin
To drop your air/fuel to the mid 11's, you are going to have to multiply your PE table by 109%.
If your truck is not of the power enrichement type (avalanche etc...) then you are going to have to kick it to open loop (multiply the closed loop enable temperature by 200%) and drop your injector flow rate table accordingly by about 12% (multiply by 88%).
You have to be careful about shifting your PE table too much in different areas. If it starts to look too much like a spagetti noodle, then it is going to cause surging.
With a blower, it is defiantly worth the time to get your fueling figured out before you get on it. With 8 psi, procharger, I would try to plant your a/f between 11.5 and 12.1
Good Luck,
Kevin
04-08-2003, 03:48 PM
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Re: Please, help with adding fuel. I got the air/fuel ratio down to 11.5-11.7 at WOT. My truck uses the closed loop instead of the PE. I tired tuning it WOT with the PE and that didn't work, instead I tuned it using the Injector Flow Rate. WOT timing is no more than 17 deg.
I will start tuning part throttle and idle now. Going down the highway I am sitting at 13.2. I am also using the IFR map to do this. It did look like a stair case however, I am tring to make more of a curve and less choppy. Thanks alot for your help. I sent you a PM. Thanks again. P.S. I have no traction a 60mph. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
I will start tuning part throttle and idle now. Going down the highway I am sitting at 13.2. I am also using the IFR map to do this. It did look like a stair case however, I am tring to make more of a curve and less choppy. Thanks alot for your help. I sent you a PM. Thanks again. P.S. I have no traction a 60mph. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
04-08-2003, 04:29 PM
#7
Re: Please, help with adding fuel. i have no idea what was said above and i might be missing something here but it seems to me you just wanted it to go into PE sooner. i had the same problem, with the whipple i would see 6psi of boost at only 1/2 throttle and still be in closed loop at 14.7-1 a/f ratio. not good!
all i did was chage the "WOT HOT", i set that chart at 40%, so now anytime i see 40% tps it goes into open loop and adds a bunch of fuel. now i go rich alot sooner.
edit... i was also under the impresion that you always tuned your idle and part throtte first(get your ltrims in line) then start working on your WOT. like i said before you can make WOT any tps% that you want to, in my case 40% tps is considered WOT.
<small>[ April 08, 2003, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: parish8 ]</small>
all i did was chage the "WOT HOT", i set that chart at 40%, so now anytime i see 40% tps it goes into open loop and adds a bunch of fuel. now i go rich alot sooner.
edit... i was also under the impresion that you always tuned your idle and part throtte first(get your ltrims in line) then start working on your WOT. like i said before you can make WOT any tps% that you want to, in my case 40% tps is considered WOT.
<small>[ April 08, 2003, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: parish8 ]</small>
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04-08-2003, 10:44 PM
#9
Re: Please, help with adding fuel. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by StupidFast:
<strong> Did you have to take your truck out of closed loop to add fuel? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">anytime you floor it it goes into open loop, you don't have to do anything, it just does it itself.
just my $.02, i did alot of reading before i started messing with ls1edit, seems like you are adjusting alot of things that shouldn't be messed with. there is an order and a way to tune these things and it isn't all that hard but you have to do it the right way and in the right order.
from what i understand the first thing to do is get your ltrims in line at idle and part throttle. you need to log them for awhile under normal driving and get a feel for where they are at. i would go for anything between 0 and -10. if your ltrims are in this range most of the time you are good and ready for the next step. if they are not you adjust with your injector flow table. use a smaller number for the injector flow if you want the ltrims to go down.
once you adjust your injector flow table you need to drive for awhile before you recheck your ltrims, they take awhile to settle in. then relog and adjust again if nesassary. get that done and then you can start working on your WOT tune.
<strong> Did you have to take your truck out of closed loop to add fuel? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">anytime you floor it it goes into open loop, you don't have to do anything, it just does it itself.
just my $.02, i did alot of reading before i started messing with ls1edit, seems like you are adjusting alot of things that shouldn't be messed with. there is an order and a way to tune these things and it isn't all that hard but you have to do it the right way and in the right order.
from what i understand the first thing to do is get your ltrims in line at idle and part throttle. you need to log them for awhile under normal driving and get a feel for where they are at. i would go for anything between 0 and -10. if your ltrims are in this range most of the time you are good and ready for the next step. if they are not you adjust with your injector flow table. use a smaller number for the injector flow if you want the ltrims to go down.
once you adjust your injector flow table you need to drive for awhile before you recheck your ltrims, they take awhile to settle in. then relog and adjust again if nesassary. get that done and then you can start working on your WOT tune.
04-09-2003, 12:11 AM
#10
Re: Please, help with adding fuel. I don't want to step on anybodies toes here....but...
There is more than one way to tune a supercharger.
Parish, the method that you are suggesting will not work. Why, because not all of GM's vehicles use a power enrichment to drop the air/fuel ratio to a more power condusive mixture. You have to disable the vehicles ability to adjust fueling on its own before you can adjust it yourself.
John, thanks for the spin in the truck. I'm still impressed how well your tune works.
There is more than one way to tune a supercharger.
Parish, the method that you are suggesting will not work. Why, because not all of GM's vehicles use a power enrichment to drop the air/fuel ratio to a more power condusive mixture. You have to disable the vehicles ability to adjust fueling on its own before you can adjust it yourself.
John, thanks for the spin in the truck. I'm still impressed how well your tune works.
04-09-2003, 02:20 PM
#11
Re: Please, help with adding fuel. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by NoGo:
<strong> I don't want to step on anybodies toes here....but...
There is more than one way to tune a supercharger.
Parish, the method that you are suggesting will not work. Why, because not all of GM's vehicles use a power enrichment to drop the air/fuel ratio to a more power condusive mixture. You have to disable the vehicles ability to adjust fueling on its own before you can adjust it yourself.
John, thanks for the spin in the truck. I'm still impressed how well your tune works. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">feel free to step on my toes, especialy if i am giving out bad info. i do not know anything about any other gm vehicle, this is my one and only stab at tuning. i have vertualy no experience other than what i have read and done to my 1 ls1 based truck.
no one has ever mentioned any other way to tune an ls1, always have been told the same steps in the same order. are you saying that there are completly diferent ways to tune an ls1 based motor when using ls1edit?
hopefully others will chime in here and set us strait because i really though i had the basics of tuning with ls1edit figured out.
<small>[ April 09, 2003, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: parish8 ]</small>
<strong> I don't want to step on anybodies toes here....but...
There is more than one way to tune a supercharger.
Parish, the method that you are suggesting will not work. Why, because not all of GM's vehicles use a power enrichment to drop the air/fuel ratio to a more power condusive mixture. You have to disable the vehicles ability to adjust fueling on its own before you can adjust it yourself.
John, thanks for the spin in the truck. I'm still impressed how well your tune works. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">feel free to step on my toes, especialy if i am giving out bad info. i do not know anything about any other gm vehicle, this is my one and only stab at tuning. i have vertualy no experience other than what i have read and done to my 1 ls1 based truck.
no one has ever mentioned any other way to tune an ls1, always have been told the same steps in the same order. are you saying that there are completly diferent ways to tune an ls1 based motor when using ls1edit?
hopefully others will chime in here and set us strait because i really though i had the basics of tuning with ls1edit figured out.
<small>[ April 09, 2003, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: parish8 ]</small>
04-09-2003, 07:31 PM
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Re: Please, help with adding fuel. My truck does not use the PE method of adding fuel. I have to take my truck out of closed loop, which it is always in, to add fuel. It was a pain to tune this way. It took my buddy and I a total of 5 hours to get it right and I am still jacking with it. I would have known nothing about this if NoGo would have not replied.
Thank you for the advice Kevin, I changed my tune
last night. I hope my truck is one of the faster trucks you rode in.
Thank you for the advice Kevin, I changed my tune
last night. I hope my truck is one of the faster trucks you rode in.
04-11-2003, 02:00 PM
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Re: Please, help with adding fuel. Ok, I am a little confused here. I have a 2000 truck, and I, too am looking at tuning the PE WOT hot table to add fuel earlier, when I get my Procharger on.
Is this not going to do anything to add fuel?
I will be using stock injectors to start, and probably get soem larger injectors in the future. Nobody seems to want to answer this on the Edit mailing list, so I must ask anywhere I can.
Does my truck use WOT Pe Hot to add fuel?
Thanks for any help! <img border="0" alt="[USA]" title="" src="graemlins/patriot.gif" /> Sam
Is this not going to do anything to add fuel?
I will be using stock injectors to start, and probably get soem larger injectors in the future. Nobody seems to want to answer this on the Edit mailing list, so I must ask anywhere I can.
Does my truck use WOT Pe Hot to add fuel?
Thanks for any help! <img border="0" alt="[USA]" title="" src="graemlins/patriot.gif" /> Sam
04-11-2003, 10:05 PM
#14
Re: Please, help with adding fuel. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by samuriarte:
<strong> Ok, I am a little confused here. I have a 2000 truck, and I, too am looking at tuning the PE WOT hot table to add fuel earlier, when I get my Procharger on.
Is this not going to do anything to add fuel?
I will be using stock injectors to start, and probably get soem larger injectors in the future. Nobody seems to want to answer this on the Edit mailing list, so I must ask anywhere I can.
Does my truck use WOT Pe Hot to add fuel?
Thanks for any help! <img border="0" alt="[USA]" title="" src="graemlins/patriot.gif" /> Sam </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You have to find out whether or not your truck uses PE or not.
I don't have a laundry list of all of the GM vehicles that don't use PE, but it seems to be most of the vehicles that are Tow capable or heavy duty.
One easy way to find out is to slap the thing on the dyno with a wideband air-fuel. When you punch it, if the air-fuel ratio does not drop below 14.8, then you know that your vehicle does not use PE.
You will have to kick it to open loop manually using the engine close loop temperature enable and use the injector flow rate curve to tune your truck.
Good Luck,
Kevin
<strong> Ok, I am a little confused here. I have a 2000 truck, and I, too am looking at tuning the PE WOT hot table to add fuel earlier, when I get my Procharger on.
Is this not going to do anything to add fuel?
I will be using stock injectors to start, and probably get soem larger injectors in the future. Nobody seems to want to answer this on the Edit mailing list, so I must ask anywhere I can.
Does my truck use WOT Pe Hot to add fuel?
Thanks for any help! <img border="0" alt="[USA]" title="" src="graemlins/patriot.gif" /> Sam </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You have to find out whether or not your truck uses PE or not.
I don't have a laundry list of all of the GM vehicles that don't use PE, but it seems to be most of the vehicles that are Tow capable or heavy duty.
One easy way to find out is to slap the thing on the dyno with a wideband air-fuel. When you punch it, if the air-fuel ratio does not drop below 14.8, then you know that your vehicle does not use PE.
You will have to kick it to open loop manually using the engine close loop temperature enable and use the injector flow rate curve to tune your truck.
Good Luck,
Kevin
04-12-2003, 10:23 AM
#15
Re: Please, help with adding fuel. The knowledge on this board never ceases to flat out F*cking amaze me! Thanks to all. NoGo you the Man!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="gr_images/icons/cool.gif" />
04-13-2003, 01:13 AM
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Re: Please, help with adding fuel. That's great if you have a wideband and/or dyno!I will try to ask Ken Kelly about it to know for sure.
I guess I could try both.
If you changed your PE WOT hot from the stock, say 90%, to 65%, would you see the change on Autotap, when you go to 65%-would you see the fuel go way rich from PE kicking in?
Another question.
If I want to add fuel(stock injectors) from the injector flow rate table,would I change the actual #'s that are there, eg; 3.12 to a lower #, or a higher #?
I see with larger injectors, people change them to a higher actual # but from what I have read above, it seems like you are saying make that number lower to make the PCM think the injector is smaller to put in extra fuel.
Am I reading it right?
Damn, this gets more confusing, the more I learn <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> Thanks for bearing with me! <img border="0" alt="[USA]" title="" src="graemlins/patriot.gif" /> Sam
<small>[ April 13, 2003, 02:58 AM: Message edited by: samuriarte ]</small>
I guess I could try both.
If you changed your PE WOT hot from the stock, say 90%, to 65%, would you see the change on Autotap, when you go to 65%-would you see the fuel go way rich from PE kicking in?
Another question.
If I want to add fuel(stock injectors) from the injector flow rate table,would I change the actual #'s that are there, eg; 3.12 to a lower #, or a higher #?
I see with larger injectors, people change them to a higher actual # but from what I have read above, it seems like you are saying make that number lower to make the PCM think the injector is smaller to put in extra fuel.
Am I reading it right?
Damn, this gets more confusing, the more I learn <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> Thanks for bearing with me! <img border="0" alt="[USA]" title="" src="graemlins/patriot.gif" /> Sam
<small>[ April 13, 2003, 02:58 AM: Message edited by: samuriarte ]</small>
04-13-2003, 04:40 PM
#17
Re: Please, help with adding fuel. I have used the PE delay (zero it out) to get the trucks to drop out of closed loop. However, it will still hold a 14.8 a/f ratio until nearly 4000 rpm.
On a whipple, this is just bad news.
On trucks that flash the converter to higher RPM's I think it is just a better idea to come into boost at a lower a/f, rather than dropping the a/f to low 12's at ~4 to 6 psi.
JMHO. As I said earlier, there is more than one way to tune a supercharger.
If Ken has found an RPM enable table to drop a truck out of closed loop the same way corvetts and F-bods do, then by all means, share it.
Good Luck,
Kevin
On a whipple, this is just bad news.
On trucks that flash the converter to higher RPM's I think it is just a better idea to come into boost at a lower a/f, rather than dropping the a/f to low 12's at ~4 to 6 psi.
JMHO. As I said earlier, there is more than one way to tune a supercharger.
If Ken has found an RPM enable table to drop a truck out of closed loop the same way corvetts and F-bods do, then by all means, share it.
Good Luck,
Kevin
04-13-2003, 09:09 PM
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Re: Please, help with adding fuel. I totally hear what you are saying. I was just getting confused about some trucks use and some don't. It looks like some of the light truck guys are saying they don't have the PE option, and he is saying that is not true. Lots of different information flying around.
"If Ken has found an RPM enable table to drop a truck out of closed loop the same way corvetts and F-bods do, then by all means, share it."
Probably just ask him on the Edit mailing list.I don't have it. That's what I did.
Since I now know that my truck(1500 5.3) uses PE, do I have to change anything but the TP % to have it change? Such as PE versus temp, or PE Versus RPMs? Thanks again! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[USA]" title="" src="graemlins/patriot.gif" /> Sam
"If Ken has found an RPM enable table to drop a truck out of closed loop the same way corvetts and F-bods do, then by all means, share it."
Probably just ask him on the Edit mailing list.I don't have it. That's what I did.
Since I now know that my truck(1500 5.3) uses PE, do I have to change anything but the TP % to have it change? Such as PE versus temp, or PE Versus RPMs? Thanks again! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[USA]" title="" src="graemlins/patriot.gif" /> Sam
04-14-2003, 12:06 AM
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Re: Please, help with adding fuel. Just wanted to add this. I asked Ken abou this, and this is what he had to say:
Sam Uriarte wrote:
> I have a 2000 5.3 truck that I am in the process of slowly installing my Procharger stuff. Does my truck use PE WOT enrichment?
> I have heard that some don't. I am going to try to lower the TPS % when I install the Procharger, to give the motor a little more fuel below WOT. This seems to be a big mystery to everyone! Can you help, please? Thanks a lot! Sam Uriarte
> _______________________________________________
Not sure where you ever got that Idea. All vehicles use PE. The Heavy
Duty trucks do put a higher value on Fuel mileage than Power. YOu will
find that they use the PE delay, and a new RPM threshold that I just
found to delay moving into PE mode.
Ken
Sam Uriarte wrote:
> I have a 2000 5.3 truck that I am in the process of slowly installing my Procharger stuff. Does my truck use PE WOT enrichment?
> I have heard that some don't. I am going to try to lower the TPS % when I install the Procharger, to give the motor a little more fuel below WOT. This seems to be a big mystery to everyone! Can you help, please? Thanks a lot! Sam Uriarte
> _______________________________________________
Not sure where you ever got that Idea. All vehicles use PE. The Heavy
Duty trucks do put a higher value on Fuel mileage than Power. YOu will
find that they use the PE delay, and a new RPM threshold that I just
found to delay moving into PE mode.
Ken
10-07-2004, 03:19 PM
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I'm digging up old stuff today.
What's everyone using for the delay RPM, and enrichment rate?
Mine's set to 5500rpm, and .0195. The RPM seems ridiculously high, seeing as my stock 1-2 shift took place at 5600rpm. (2-3 was only 5200)
The delay makes me a little nervous.
What's everyone using for the delay RPM, and enrichment rate?
Mine's set to 5500rpm, and .0195. The RPM seems ridiculously high, seeing as my stock 1-2 shift took place at 5600rpm. (2-3 was only 5200)
The delay makes me a little nervous.
