Suspension & Brakes - Subframe connectors. Bolt or weld?

Which way should I go? What are the plus and negitives to each? I like the Idea of bolt in's, so I will probably go that way unless I am convinced otherwise. Also will I see any drop in E.T. with a mostly stock car? Thanks

I voted weld in, But bolt in's can be welded in too. So! SFC are a must for power.

bolt em up, then weld em!!!

I havent welded mine in yet, but they arent loose. been to the track a buncha times

A piece that is designed to add rigitity to your car must be welded in to do that best as possible. A flange that is retained with just a bolt can still flex from the point of the bolt retaining it.
Other hand a flange which circumference is welded to the car wont be near as apt to flex as the bolt on piece would be.
Not to mention there is alot more joining the pieces to the car when welded in, dependant upon the design of SFC you go with.

My $.02

Here we go again ...

I voted weld-in. I would either buy bolt-in and then weld them or just buy the weld-in's.

Any type of bolt or fastener will allow movement as tolerance is designed into the part so you have enough ROOM to put the bolt in. The same room (tolerance) that give you space to put the bolt in kills you in the fact it lets the brace move before it can do its job.

Boltins are working fine for me. Is it easier for you to take it and have it welded in? Or is it easier for you to bolt them in yourself?

Weld, Weld Weld !!!!!! Just no way in hell bolt-in is better, no way !!!!

I bought the bolt on ones and then welded them in.

I bolted mine in and then drove to a muff shop and had them welded in.

I have bolt ins and plan on getting them welded eventually.

We sell alot of the bolt on styles, many people tend to purchase the bolt on set-up for ease of installation. This allows them to install the item themselves and have a garage at a later date weld them in place for them. We usually recommend to weld them but we have also had great luck with our bolt in designs.

Ryan

how many of of you bolt-in guys have 60'd uner 1.70?

i know that mid 1.6 60s twisted the shit out of my car before adding the sub-frames...so bad that i honestly think it made my driver's side window leak (t-top car..)

straightenedthe car back up, welded in some sub-frames, and now many 1.6x 60s later, i still have no leaks or squeaks.

welding ftw. ever hear the phrase: "if you're going to do something, do it right."? it's a good philosphy to exercise when it comes to PERFORMANCE upgrades, as a chain of events usually occurs when ONE part lets go.

Bolted mine in and then welded them. Thanks UMI for the quality parts!

I just got bolt ins and they are in the mail. I just had someone tell me that they are 90% sure that they will not bolt up to my car, he said that the holes in the front are probably screwed up from jacking the car up with a jack with too small of a foot print ( which I have done ) Thats just great. They are 3 points, so would it be a bad idea to just bolt up the back two points, then drive like 15 mins to a welder? and then just have him weld the fronts up.

Weld them.

I have helped install two sets of bolt in SFC's (slp brand). With both cars, after a few months the bolts had loosened up a bit. We tried loctite and tightened the bejesus out of them. Didn't matter, they still had give some time later.

Weld here...just ordered mine too!

Weld them in.

definately weld
i use a crappy flux-core mig and it has fallen apart once

I would definitely get the weld in ones. What are you looking to do?...strengthen the chassis, right?. Welds > Bolts for strength, plain and simple.;)

http://www.exoticperformanceplus.com/services.php?service=13 Bob

weld em in if you want it done right

UMI bolt in subframe cons are top notch cant see a problem

I am a big fan of welding important parts like SFC's. :engarde:

i vote bolt in and then weld in later. suspension must be loaded when tightening the bolts down, correct?

I've got BMR boxed weld-in SFC's and first you bolt them down...then you weld them. I would think most of the other SFC's are the same way.

weld them in, also, its important when you weld them that the suspenstion has no load on it. i.e. take it to speed shop let them do it right the first time

i thought it was supposed to have a full even load. I'll have to check my UMI instructions

Correct, the suspension should be under full normal load when installing them. Bolt 'em that way and then weld.


Steve


i thought it was supposed to have a full even load. I'll have to check my UMI instructions

Is 3point much better than 2point?

Is 3point much better than 2point?
I would think so---wish I had thought of 3-point ones... :bang:

Here we go again ...


HEHE!!!

Weld them.

I have helped install two sets of bolt in SFC's (slp brand). With both cars, after a few months the bolts had loosened up a bit. We tried loctite and tightened the bejesus out of them. Didn't matter, they still had give some time later.

Had slp's on my old car and installed them on another car, they never loosened.

Weld them.

I have helped install two sets of bolt in SFC's (slp brand). With both cars, after a few months the bolts had loosened up a bit. We tried loctite and tightened the bejesus out of them. Didn't matter, they still had give some time later.

Hmmmm......guess I had better get mine checked out! I physically tested and found no movement, but I suppose this isn't a full-proof method of inspection. I am trying to diagnose some unwanted thudding on hard launches. Narrowed it down to the TA, bushings, still could be the Tranny mount but not likely, eroded jouncers causing the T/A to be off-degree'd, or the subframes. Just had the rear diff changed, and no issues, plus the u-joints physically tested.

GD suspension issues like finding a needle in a haystack.

Now when you say weld....you mean w/ stainless steel rods correct?

WELD THEM, i only used on bolt to hold them up for the trip to the muffler shop :drive:

weld them in, also, its important when you weld them that the suspenstion has no load on it. i.e. take it to speed shop let them do it right the first time
make sure you give correct info :eek2:

Can anyone answer his other question, if his ET will be lowered by having sfc. Cause I was wondering the same thing.

Weld in, they saved my car from accordian-ing in a wreck on the highway!!! Well worth their weight in gold!

likewise...

Can anyone answer is other question, if his et will be lowered at all buy having sfc. Cause I was wondering the same thing.

How much do shops usually charge to throw some welds onto some pre-bolted in sfcs?

get bolt ons, then weld em on at your convenience. Its also a lot easier to get decent welds when they are already bolted on, as they are being held in the precise a spot already and you dont have to worry about holding them up or them being placed improperly.
just my 2 cents

I installed the UMI 3-point bolt-in's a week ago. Car doesn't flex any more. Feels real solid.

the weld is obviously more supportive and stronger. I felt a big difference when I got mine welded in....

weld in. built and installed mine and still no problems

going to have the guys at HPE weld mine in the day they arrive on my doorstep...


which depends on when they ship of course... :o

I have slp bolt-ins,no problems yet.I may weld them later...

weld them

Notice alotta people are saying bolt & weld...thats exactly what im gonna do...but shocks will come first

Weld em in !

Yeah keep weldin! My car will be worth more in 30 yrs without all this crap welded on! :engarde:

Yeah keep weldin! My car will be worth more in 30 yrs without all this crap welded on! :engarde:
somehow i doubt that

Weld-ins FTW... Now i just need to find someone to weld them in...

On the 2 4 gens I've had in the past I went with Bolt in ones.. then had them welded later and I just placed an order from UMI last night for bolt in SFC's as well as an APHB and LCA's. I'll be having the SFC's welded probably within a month or so.

I've got the UMI 3-point bolt on's. They've been installed for around six months now and haven't loosened. I unbolted the front of them the other day to see if the paint was scuffed (which would indicate that they were moving), but the paint was in perfect condition.

I don't think they move at all.

welded mine right up.
I have BMR tubular and you cant even see them at all.

Depends on which SFC you decide to go with...I have the SLP bolt ins. They are the diamond shape. I decided not to weld mine in because they bolt up to the cross member and to the lower control arm bracket. I didn't want to take the chance of having to remove them and them be welded to the car. If you have the SFC that run along each side of the car, then by all means weld 'em up.

Just got my UMI 3 Point SFC's welded in... I'm DAMN happy with it... even on a low miles SS (less than 20k) it made a big difference...

going to skip my exhaust and go with a few more suspension parts before doing anything else

Weld them.

I have helped install two sets of bolt in SFC's (slp brand). With both cars, after a few months the bolts had loosened up a bit. We tried loctite and tightened the bejesus out of them. Didn't matter, they still had give some time later.

Did you try blue or red loctite?

Im thinkin about doing the umi 3 point bolt ins then welding them in. Does anyone have pictures of the weld points or pictures of their weld in install?

quick question....will all bolt on sfc's be able to be welded in eventually?

quick question....will all bolt on sfc's be able to be welded in eventually?


.....assuming they're made of metal? yes :)

Had my SLPs welded in, very happy. Guy even had to undue my dumbass jacking damage.

I just got bolt ins and they are in the mail. I just had someone tell me that they are 90% sure that they will not bolt up to my car, he said that the holes in the front are probably screwed up from jacking the car up with a jack with too small of a foot print ( which I have done ) Thats just great. They are 3 points, so would it be a bad idea to just bolt up the back two points, then drive like 15 mins to a welder? and then just have him weld the fronts up.
you should be fine, just drive it carefully til you get there

bolt em up, then weld em!!!


That's what I've always heard :drive:

A piece that is designed to add rigitity to your car must be welded in to do that best as possible. A flange that is retained with just a bolt can still flex from the point of the bolt retaining it.
Other hand a flange which circumference is welded to the car wont be near as apt to flex as the bolt on piece would be.
Not to mention there is alot more joining the pieces to the car when welded in, dependant upon the design of SFC you go with.

My $.02


WHAT HE SAID!

Just finished welding mine in a week or so ago, It made a huge difference, its definitely the most noticeable suspension mod ive done to this point.

I ordered mines to weld in..... it's just common sense.... it'll hold better

Iv'e had the SLP boxed 3 point bolt-ons for a long time and they get the job done. They mount with steel plates inside the front frame well, so it's not just the bolts holding them in place. I've removed them a few times over the years to touch up the paint on them as well as spots under the car where they rub. You can't do that if they're welded. I've heard some horror stories of electrical and structual problems after improper welding that turned me off. They do have to be checked once & a while, but I'm fine with that.

Welded BMR's here. That's the only kind I recommend too!

how much do shops usually charge to weld them in?

Put double diamond SFCs on about 5 years ago, bolt on. Put locktite on the bolts, never a issue. Never once has the bolts loosened in 35k miles. May weld them up eventually, but no real need..

get weld-in's... i really like the BMR boxed sfc's it's a night and day difference. i bought mine from SpeedInc and had them install them. they tuck up under the car really nicely, i don't think i lost any ground clearance w/ them.

it was great. unfortunately i sold the car. =(

weld-ons...bolt-on just seems like a waste to me

My UMI sfc's have been sitting in my basement for about 6 months. I finally got around to installing them today. Mine are the weld in style and I did it in my driveway in about 2 hours taking my time. I'm glad I didn't bother with the bolt in set. There is no way you're going to be able to take full advantage of them if they are not welded.
I took the car for a drive afterwards and didn't notice any difference until I dumped the clutch at 10mph. I had no wheel hop and the tires hooked up quicker. I'm happy!

Weld Is Better But I Got Bolton Ones That Can Be Welede So Hell All The Better

Sfcs Alone Probally Wont Lower Your Et B\c Their Heavy But They Do Provide Much Structural Support For Your Car So Thell Keep It From Getting All Fucked Up

Boltons CAN loosen up and create some noise issues too, but more likely on HIGHLY MODIFICED vehicles where torque/hp is more of an issue. I had my boltons going on 4+ years w/50+ passes at the track, and no problems.

Then again, I have no internal mods. Just my 2 cents

Purchased bolt ons then had them welded in. Was not going to do that at first but changed my mind for many of the above stated reasons.Works great, car hooks better and corners better according to my seat dyno,lol.

ok its obvious bolt ons are better than nothing but weld on is the best that kinda sums it up right

You can always weld them up later. Even with a stock car it will make it more solid and keep everything tight for a long time. I wish they had them back in the day for my old 82 TA.

Can anyone answer his other question, if his ET will be lowered by having sfc. Cause I was wondering the same thing.

Well sfc's help with traction which helps w/ tha 60 and if a better 60 a better time no?
unless you cant drive :)

Yes. Anything that helps your 60' is going to help your over all e.t. :burn: :cheers:

weld them

I would get the bolt-on SFC, for the sole purpose that if you ever sell your car, you could take them off and sell them for $200+

:thumb:

weld em

Weld em in dont be a pussy!!!!!!!!!

Oh yeah weld em in.

Wow I Would Hate To Buy Bolt-ns Just For Fear Of Getting Flogged.

Little over 4 years with SLP SFC's bolted in. Nothing has come loose or moved. Would prefer welding them in, however I work on my car in a driveway on jack stands and like the idea of being able to unbolt them if necessary.

I'm not sure that its really gonna matter one way or the other. Mine are welded in. and after having my trans and my engine out it would have been nice to take 'em out for exhaust reasons. My exhaust is also all custom and welded in which might also be part of the problem. but either way... I have never heard of any real problems either way.

weld them. period. you dont need to take them out......

Well since the convertible ones that UMI has out are bolt in style only at the moment guess I'll have to bolt in the driveway and then weld them once I find a shop. Shouldn't be an issue apparently.

weld them

I bought SLP weld in ones. Then I made the plates where they bolt in. I don't wanna weld them cause if I ever need to remove them it's a bitch!!!! I painted them red and they are awesome. Firmed the ride right up! HUGE difference! Slp weld in sfc's are identical besides the bolt ins are $150 more with the hardware. Here's my pics.

Ya Did Good There They Look Nice

Two sided tape!!! ... lol

We sell alot of the bolt on styles, many people tend to purchase the bolt on set-up for ease of installation. This allows them to install the item themselves and have a garage at a later date weld them in place for them. We usually recommend to weld them but we have also had great luck with our bolt in designs.

Ryan

Exactly what I am doing....again. This time I bought the UMI bolt-ins, and will weld them in eventually. I had the SLPs on the car I just laid to rest. And even bolted in they made a HUGE difference in how the car felt & performed. I ran 1.46 60's with no sheet metal damage. And I ran the car on a road course & in a road race with no mishaps.

As for improving your ET, yes. They reduce energy wasted in your car's frame twisting, & hence more of your HP & TQ gets transmitted to the tires. So the more power you make the more your car will benefit. I can tell you that once you progress past mid 12s, they are the difference between straight & wrinkled rear fenders if you race a lot.

What all they do for cornering I am no expert about, but they made my car feel like a go-cart. So I know they help, just not sure exactly how.....

weld them in if your keeping the car......bolt-in you can take off and sell them if you sell you car....but, why would you sell it :D

2 things to consider. If they are standard 2 point connectors I would weld them in. They should never get in your way. If the are 3 point connectors such as UMI or SLP bolt em in! They are tuff as hell!

be one with the car WELD IN why would you what to take them out any way

I can tell you that once you progress past mid 12s, they are the difference between straight & wrinkled rear fenders if you race a lot.



I know a guy who goes mid 8's in his camaro and never has had SFC on his car. He has a cage and all obviously but still, no messed up fenders and the body and frame is all straight.

I say welded in for sure though if you do get them.

Maybe to fit some types of headers.....just a guess...lol

bolt them in then weld them in.

i got the slp bolt in's on my car and i felt a big difference so far with them just bolted up i just make sure every know and then all bolts are tight but i probably will eventually weld them up sooooo win win situation with subframe connectors, they make the car feel so much more together...

How much do you think it would cost for a body shop to weld in UMI subframe connectors? Also, is the 3 point worth the extra $150 over the boxed style?

How much do you think it would cost for a body shop to weld in UMI subframe connectors? Also, is the 3 point worth the extra $150 over the boxed style?

weld in is the only way to go.It might cost $60.00 buck.(worth every penny)
You dont want you t-tops leaking do you

weld in is the only way to go.It might cost $60.00 buck.(worth every penny)
You dont want you t-tops leaking do you


T-tops leak regardless

not all of them.so i would try to avoid that the best i could.Boxed sfc welded in

If nobody else will say it then I guess I'll have to be the one to break the cycle and go against the grain.....

Bolt them in, then weld them. :D

Hi, I Am Putting A Set Of Prokit Springs In My Car Next Week And I Am Looking For A Set Of Sub Frame Connectors To Put In At That Time. Anybody Have A Set For Sale???????????????

Hi, I Am Putting A Set Of Prokit Springs In My Car Next Week And I Am Looking For A Set Of Sub Frame Connectors To Put In At That Time. Anybody Have A Set For Sale???????????????
Post up in the parts wanted section of the classified's, you will probabaly get some good results there.

Hi, Anybody Out There Have A Set Of Sub Frame Connectors For Sale????????? Please Respond

Hi, I Am Putting A Set Of Prokit Springs In My Car Next Week And I Am Looking For A Set Of Sub Frame Connectors To Put In At That Time. Anybody Have A Set For Sale???????????????

Hi, Anybody Out There Have A Set Of Sub Frame Connectors For Sale????????? Please Respond

If you read the thread you can find out where to buy them.

:read:

I've seen quarter panels wrinkle and doglegs twist from not having chassis support. I voted weld.

I know a guy who goes mid 8's in his camaro and never has had SFC on his car. He has a cage and all obviously but still, no messed up fenders and the body and frame is all straight.

I say welded in for sure though if you do get them.

A cage is better then sf's and still tieing the points together. There not a most for a drag car, but a cheap easy option for most people, as the majority doesn't want or need a cage.

Chris

How much do you think it would cost for a body shop to weld in UMI subframe connectors? Also, is the 3 point worth the extra $150 over the boxed style?

The more points tied together the better. But you will have to stick with a y pipe for exhuast. so no trueduals. IF you have an extra 150 bucks, its worth it. if you dont, then dont spend it.

Most shops charge 50-75 bucks to weld them in. it takes about an hour.

Also MAKE SURE! the suspension is loaded while installing, otherwise you are doing more bad then good.


Chris

Mine are weld in also,that was one of my first mod I done to my car.

Weld in

Mine are welded in the front and bolted in the back. Someday I should have them welded in the back too.

Weld In..

Seems to me weld in is the way to go, but I voted bolt in simply for the ease of removing come time to sell the car, if you ever get that far.

Boltins are working fine for me. Is it easier for you to take it and have it welded in? Or is it easier for you to bolt them in yourself?

Why not just weld them in yourself?? Just as easy..

Which way should I go? What are the plus and negitives to each? I like the Idea of bolt in's, so I will probably go that way unless I am convinced otherwise. Also will I see any drop in E.T. with a mostly stock car? Thanks

One of the very first chassis stiffening mods I did to the car was weld-on subframe connectors from Alston. Makes a big difference for street or track. Still have 'em to this day!Installed 14 years ago. See video below. Straight launching.

Have them welded

Bolt on, weld in!!!

weld them........bolts stretch

i have bolt in 3 point SFC's, but they will be welded in once i get my new exhaust setup for the turbo

I am running BMR weld in tubular SFCs

www.bmrfabrication.com

i guess it helps to have a guy u know who has a welder who owes u a favor but i bought the weld in for my car cause they were cheaper and the welding them in is very simple.

Dont bolt and weld ....just weld :thumb:

weld in

2 point.. weld in, 3 point, bolt in..... my .02

weld has my vote

Just had my Spohn SFCs welded in...going to the track Sat...

A piece that is designed to add rigitity to your car must be welded in to do that best as possible. A flange that is retained with just a bolt can still flex from the point of the bolt retaining it.
Other hand a flange which circumference is welded to the car wont be near as apt to flex as the bolt on piece would be.
Not to mention there is alot more joining the pieces to the car when welded in, dependant upon the design of SFC you go with.

My $.02

+1 to this.

for all the guys saying weld ins will hurt the value of your car.. umm.. how? so in the buyers mind hes thinking to himself "aww crap the guy before me took preventative measure to make sure the chassis was good and straight, and the car should handle and hook a bit better now.. i wish he had just left it soggy so the T tops could leak on me and my girlfriend.. i like it when her shirt gets wet" -- come on wtf.

the FIRST mod we did to the 1996 mystic cobra we used to own, and bought new.. was add subframe connectors to the car to keep the car sitting properly 10 years down the road.. and guess what.. when i sold it, the SFC's were a selling point.. even though that car is ridiculously rare - and held its value well also i might add. yes i took it to the track, and the doors still shut fine when i got home.. ive seen high 12 second mustangs with passenger side doors that had to be slammed. sure were not talking mustangs here, im makin the point about the "resale value" argument being horsepoo

i put a cage in my 87 notch.. it made the difference between driving sideways and having to fight it off the line to going straight as an arrow off the line with no other changes.. the traction difference before and after no other changes was dramatic to say the least.. it was my DD though and climing over those hot ass door bars after it had been sitting in a parking lot in 105* texas heat sucked.. had to carry towels in the car.

btw.. back on subjects. weld em, and load the suspension first. had a friend that made the mistake of unloading his susp on purpose.. they didnt do the trick.. next trip to the track was first time out on slicks and the passenger door had to be slammed after that. :bang:

get weld on

Which way should I go? What are the plus and negitives to each? I like the Idea of bolt in's, so I will probably go that way unless I am convinced otherwise. Also will I see any drop in E.T. with a mostly stock car? Thanks

I went with the 2-point bolt-in and then weld them in

i'm going to weld mine in too!!!

I have the SLP bolt-ins, welded in place.

If I were to start from scratch again, I would save the 250 bucks (and 35-40 lbs.!!) and do without these things. ;)

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but how much would a reputable shop charge to weld in some connectors?
-Joel

I also say weld in!But we also have done our fair share of bolt in and then the customer would like us to weld them in as well.We make are own weld in chrome moly sfc's they are 3lbs a piece!

Just put on my WELD IN SFC's ... definally worth it ...

For how easy it is to have them welded in.. just do it right !

weld them in. just did it today. much better than bolting it in.

bolt em up, then weld em!!!

I havent welded mine in yet, but they arent loose. been to the track a buncha times

thats what i did makes it so much easyer for the welder too!!!buy the bolt ins then weld after bolted!!that way you KNOWW!!!there right on my man !!LOL!!:D

I wanna know how many people that are saying weld em have the 2 piece or the 3 point ones... I'm just reluctant to buy a pair of 3 point ones and weld them in the event I need to remove things as it looks like it would be in the way of things that need to be removed (driveshaft, transmission, etc) or am I wrong?

I wanna know how many people that are saying weld em have the 2 piece or the 3 point ones... I'm just reluctant to buy a pair of 3 point ones and weld them in the event I need to remove things as it looks like it would be in the way of things that need to be removed (driveshaft, transmission, etc) or am I wrong?

this is what i want to know also!!! anyone have pix of the 3 point SFC installed???

Yeah keep weldin! My car will be worth more in 30 yrs without all this crap welded on! :engarde:


These cars will never reach the icon status that the 60's versions did. Think about it, there are way more of these. Far less that are one offs. Not to mention it will be really hard to be driving a true gasoline car in 30 years. I imagine it will get to a point where fuel is rediculous or hard to find.

Anyways, WELD!

I wanna know how many people that are saying weld em have the 2 piece or the 3 point ones... I'm just reluctant to buy a pair of 3 point ones and weld them in the event I need to remove things as it looks like it would be in the way of things that need to be removed (driveshaft, transmission, etc) or am I wrong?

the connect to where the tunnel brace is so its not in the way of anything. here is a pic which is hard to tell. i also have a DS safety loop connecting the two SBCs together.

*edit* these are bolt-in

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c255/ghettosled/camaro7small.jpg

either way you go it will have the same strength, all the crap people are saying about weld is stronger and the bolt allows the sfc to move is bull.

honestly either way is good, since the bolt in's are removable its a big plus for me if I ever sell the car, I can pull them off and sell them on the side.

All those people saying a weld is stronger, think about this, the cross sectional area of the weld is usually what about 3/8ths squared /2, thats not much, and usually the cross sectional area of a big chassis bolt pi*1/4 squared, (for a 1/2 diameter bolt)

And then add to that weld material is not the strongest metal in the world and you end up with side effects like a heat affected zone, corrosion et cetera.

If you get someone who knows what they are doing then weld, but I would rather go with the bolt in again, saves me some money and I can do it myself

I have had both on two seperate cars and WELD IN is Definately the way to go. Once again Thanks SPOHN for the great products!!

I had the 3 point and sold them when I thought I was going to sell my car. Now that I am keeping it I think I am going to get these....http://www.wolferacecraft.com/detail.aspx?ID=805
I know the install is ALOT more but over all I think it will be better and permanant.

A piece that is designed to add rigitity to your car must be welded in to do that best as possible. A flange that is retained with just a bolt can still flex from the point of the bolt retaining it.
Other hand a flange which circumference is welded to the car wont be near as apt to flex as the bolt on piece would be.
Not to mention there is alot more joining the pieces to the car when welded in, dependant upon the design of SFC you go with.

My $.02


im just going to get this out of the way right now... im a welder.. its what i do for a living.... i will tell u right now if something does not have some type of flex to it IT WILL BREAK... i dont care if u bolt them in or weld them there both going to need sometype of flex one way or the other.. bolting them in is more affordable and everyone can do that.. id buy a pair of bolt ins and just weld them in later.. welding them in can be VERY EXPENSIVE.. depending on where u go.. some shops charge a minimum of 92 an hour (rockford IL area)... pretty much if ur on a tight budget and ur car sees little track time bolt ins are fine... just check them periodically and make sure the bolts are staying tight.. but if u have the money and the car is a drag only car, just have them welded on