Mike24

Read this piece Bob Lutz wrote about the New Camaro. Why Does he bring up the Firebird for no reason???

http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/archives...ople.html#more

~JOSHUA

iTrader: (92)

He better bring it up.... otherwise it would mean that he lives under a rock considering how mad a lot of people are that the Firebird/Trans-Am is dead.

Bad Blue WS6

iTrader: (41)

Toying with my emotions,,,,,us TA guys can only hoppe and pray...congrats to you Camaro guys though,,,bummer about the IRS.

y2k_ta

iTrader: (80)

Maybe I'm reading too far into his comments, but it sounds as if he's basically saying, "I get a big kick out of your relentless pursuit of a new Firebird, but no matter what any of you say it's never coming back. Thanks for the laughs...ha ha ha"

staringback05

iTrader: (8)

bastards....there all bastards to kill the bird

Silver02TA

iTrader: (6)

"Love that enthusiasm!"

that's what i'm feelin' too...

Mike24

I for one think we should bombard away. Lutz has said nothing but negative things about the Firebird for the last couple of years. Why mention it on the Camaros Day, if he hadnt mentioned it , it would stay a dead issue. The mention of the Bird and not his precious GTO seems to me the door isnt completely shut.

Captainofiron

iTrader: (1)

I just posted a comment on the blog to revive the Firebird, I say if its war they want we'll give em war

y2k_ta

iTrader: (80)

Lutz did say he enjoyed the enthusiasm.

02SLPTransAm

iTrader: (1)

I'm not too worried about the Trans Am coming back....I'm sure if the Camaro goes over well that the Trans Am won't be very many years off....I just can't wait to run into a new Camaro on the street in a few years......WE WILL ALL MAKE OUR STATEMENTS.......hopefully it will be good ones and it won't run circles around us Trans Am guys..

Black FormulaLs1

iTrader: (10)

I also predict that you will tell me in no uncertain terms whether you agree with that assessment, and I further predict I will read a lot of posts with the word "Firebird" in them. Love that enthusiasm

if he wants enthusiasm then perhapse he would care to ride in some of our Firebirds!! god that burns my ***...seems like he i spoking fun at the 'birds..has he FORGOTTEN that EVERYTHING in GM is a damn SS or can be had as a SS..but that there is no WS6 out? they went so far as to put a BLINGDYBEEPIN *RAMAIR* on a GRAND AM !!!!

talk about nickel and diming a franchise out!!! they TRIED that with a Z/24 Cavalier..glad they didnt put Z28 badges on a truck/suv/cobalt/or a damn minivan...THIS IS JUST FLAT OUT FREAKING WRONG!!!

See THIS is why we RESTORE cars.. BECAUSE GM wont get their CORPORATE ASSES out of the office and take a serious look at WHAT WE DO ..the PRIDE we have and the LOVE we have for our FIREBIRDS and TRANS AMs.

We MOD our cars to be faster, to handle better, either for a straight line or for a more specific driving style..we do interior mods. guages, LED's, seat swaps or custom upholstery, DO YOU SEE THIS IN THE Soccer MOM MARKET...NO!!!!
we do brakes, tires, rims, paint,suspention,...ALL OF THAT..because WE LOVE OUR CARS!!!

you wont find this kind of love and dedication in the rural suburbia or the nice quiet ritsy townhomes ..we take pride in that brand and its heritage and we RESPECT it for what it was and CAN STILL BE!!

Now if GM will get of its *** and DO something there are a $hitload of people out there WAITING for a new 400+ hp- 6 speed, SOM ,RAM AIR, Non-I.R.S. rear end that will go out and Not only hand out asswhippins to any and current Mustangs but Take back the Streets and the DRAG STRIP!!!

they just have to BE AFFORDABLE...the baby boomer generation is gone..most of us are grown up with house payments and a kid or two..but we LOVE our cars and we want to bring that same love and respect to our kids..BUT ITS KINDA HARD IF THEY DONT MAKE ANYTHING!!

so we save and TRY to find something to restore..and HOPE we can get it built to Enjoy it..only to know that in the end...

I will read a lot of posts with the word "Firebird" in them. Love that enthusiasm

I should be so lucky to feed this guy a brick..

DrEvyl

iTrader: (5)

He says it simply because he knows that Pontiac guys are gonna be screaming for a new Firebird to go along with the Camaro... but also knows that he's not going to be able to deliver it.

Read this thread, paying particular attention to the comments by guionM and FBodfather... Then you'll know why there's a Camaro and no Firebird..

http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?t=453914

And as much as I love the Firebird, I'm kinda glad they're doing it that way... I'd rather have one GOOD car than two mediocre ones.. especially if having two pretty much guaranteed it would die again in the future.

I'm not going to turn my nose up on a decent quality, high horsepower RWD GM performance car just because it doesn't say "Firebird" on the fender.

Snapps

iTrader: (39)

Nine Ball

iTrader: (38)

BINGO!

The next gen GTO will be the same platform as the Camaro, so it will still be the sister car. If you want a Firebird that bad, just slap some Firebird emblems on it, lol.

I feel that if the Camaro sells very well, GM would probably have no problem coming out with a Firebird version maybe a year or two later. It's relatively simple to create a new nose, new tail light panel, and maybe a hood. Of course, the new GTO might look kickass, and maybe none of us will worry about it.

HPP

You're not reading too much in. He's a dick. He knows that composite body panels are not expensive AT ALL to produce on any scale, and that there are ways around any federal regulations regarding testing of new cars (otherwise we wouldn't have han an '04 GTO, period).

He hates the Firebird, and doesn't like Pontiac. And many so-called "Pontiac fans" cheer him and the death of the Phoenix on. camaro guys don't say "I'm glad it's dead", and they have a new one coming. This is NOT a coincidence.

Nine Ball

iTrader: (38)

HPP, I've read several of your replies regarding this stuff. I have to admit that you could be one of the most ignorant members here, and that your statements are often idiotic.

BTW, several of us aren't "Camaro guys" or "Firebird guys". Several people own(ed) and appreciate both models. It's not a team vs team thing, I consider them all f-bodies.

NemeSS

iTrader: (127)

i have gotten to the point where i dont even see the difference anymore
to me its the same car ITS MY CAR
thats how i see them, whether discussing a Camaro or TA
i have owned both in 3rd gen and 4th gen, from TPI to LS1
it wont be the same imo when the camaro does come out without a TA next to it
A TRUE DIEHARD f body man would have a bittersweet feeling about the new Camaro without the presence of a TA
thats my take on the matter,my 0.02$

HPP

Yes, I am die hard and consistent, AND in disagreement with you. What else would you say or think? Typical human nature.


I read all 10 pages. You guys are not real bright. Sorry. You're missing the big picture, making huge assumptions, and all around discrediting yourselves. And you further that by starting in with the insults on those who say otherwise.

Wanna get into it?

Your ("your" - collectively) points -
- The cars would overlap
- Corollary to the above - Overlap is bad
- It's too expensive
- The market isn't large enough
- If it made sense, it would be done by GM and others


- The cars would overlap, and overlap is bad.
ALL GM cars overlap. If we had no overlap we would have 1 dualie, 1 heavy duty full size pickup, 1 light duty full size pickup, 1 mid-size pickup, 1 large SUV, 1 small SUV, 1 mini-van, 1 full size van, 1 luxury sedan, 1 performance sedan, 1 economy sedan, 1 luxury coupe, 1 performance coupe, 1 economy coupe, and 1 economy hatch.

That would be a full line. That would/could all come from 1 brand, or, several highly focused brands that did only a few cars.

But we don't have that. We have nothing but LOADS of overlap, *everywhere*. And you MUST think that overlap is a good thing, because you assume that corporate managment only does what makes sense (will get to this again later), and many car makers have multiple divisions and lots and lots of overlap.

Further, to sit and argue that overlap is the reason why it shoudln't be made, while supporting the GTO on the platform, and ignoring all the other overlap taking place (and in the case of Kappa, selling like mad), is totally disigenuous, at *best*.


- It's too expensive
Too expensive to do what? Make a few plastic body panels? Yes, you CAN overspend, NASA does it all the time. But if it cost that much to make a nose, small places like Saleen, or Foose designs could not do it. Period. Next you'll say that making a different hood costs too much money, which would mean that SLP would have to be Microsoft-big.

Ok, you'll trot out scale of production. So aim the "2nd" car at a smaller sales target, and plan accordingly.

What would be expensive is making a totally new car, from the ground up. This is what you claim would be necessary. It's not. This why we have so much platform sharing, in all car makers. 300C people could come up with the same baseless arguments against the case for the Charger, but the bottom line is, it cost DCX FAR FAR less to change some styling on an existing chassis and risk some "overlap" than to build a totally new vehicle.

For the price of some body panels, you get something you can choose to market as a totally separate car. That's a 2 for 1. You can capture buyers that won't like your primary offering. You can create heritage for 2 nameplates if they both take off, which will help the whole company. It's diversifying your investments and spreading the risk. And EVERYTHING is a risk.


- The market isn't large enough
A few years ago, everyone "knew" the roadster market was "full" and wouldn't support anymore offerings. Miata owned it, and Honda and BMW picked up the stragglers. But some crazy "idiots" in GM, did what any expert would never have done, and developed not 1, but 2 vehicles in that market. AND, they happend to share a chassis and be totally overlapping at that. Again, all the "experts" know that that's a bad thing because it "competes with itself" (somehow) and would dilute the quality of both cars.

Funny how reality didn't work out like that though. (not all that surprising however) See, the fact is, a given market space will stabilize at a given size based on the quality and number of the products that comprice that space. Only so many people wanted a Miata, S2000, or Z3/4. Turns out that many of those didn't even *really* want those cars, they were just willing to accept something that fit a given criteria. But other people who weren't willing to 'settle', now have 2 new options available to them and they are buying.

You can ignore this, or try to blow it off, like all the other people on your side try, but you're only discrediting yourself by showing a certain voluntary blindness.

Mustang and Camaro will not, ever, capture all of the "sporty coupe" market. They can, by definition, only get people who are interested in buying, or willing to buy, specifically a Mustang or Camaro.

See, this gets back to overlap a bit, and it's because there's an underlying reality to this - not everyone is interested in a box with an engine. Not everyone says "I want a car in market X, let me go buy one." Precious few buy pony cars for reasons of practicality. Offer another quality option, and more people will buy. There's no 2 ways about it. (and the roadster market illustrates that perfectly, much to the chagrin of the corporate management cheerleaders)


- If it made sense, it would be done by GM and others
And here we get to the crux of the matter. All the above are pure speculation and rationalization. The bottom line is people say "they are in buisness to make money, and they wouldn't pass up a chance to do it, so it must not make sense". Afterall, we know that they have highly paid, and experienced people under pressure and scrutiny making these decisions, so they must (always) be right, right?

You only need a clear, and maybe a bit skeptical, mind to look at Corporate America and realize that it's a total SNAFU. Work in the inside of that a little, and see the working of many companies (like say, by being a consultant), and the point is just driven home with alarming power.

It is a wonder that America has *any* large buisness left that are not wholly owned and run by foreigners.

Wallstreet and shareholders are a part of the problem. Bonuses to managers who cut costs in the short term are a major problem. Overpaid executives who get their jobs and experience because of who they know are a problem (put them under all the scrutiny you want. What's the worst you can do? Fire them and trigger their golden parachute? Not much incentive there)

It's this short term thinking, coupled with all the rest, that has gotten the domestics into trouble, and also demonstrates a vital fact - corporate management does NOT do everything that makes sense, nor avoid doing what *doesn't* make sense.

Any argument that is based on the concept that what is done or is not done is only so because it "makes sense", is utterly and completely null and void. And that ends up writing off nearly everything anyone on your side has *ever* managed to say about this.

Mike24

HPP, Black Formula Ls1 I like the way you think. We need more people like this.

y2k_ta

iTrader: (80)

This statement backs up Nine Ball very well. You saying we're not bright is like the pot calling the kettle black.

I happen to be one of those guys that appreciates both the Camaro and Firebird. I've owned both, and will certainly own a 5th gen Camaro at some point down the road.

Why are there so many Pontiac extremists? I know plenty of Camaro & Mustang guys, and none of them are so narrow-minded as some of the Pontiac folk seem to be. It's like some of you can't get over the fact that they haven't put a Pontiac V8 in any Pontiac model since 1981. You seem to feel the need to bicker about all things Pontiac as a result.

If you don't care for what I've said, just remember it's only an opinion.