Advanced Engineering Tech - Mirconite vs REM Polishing and Cryo?

Mirconite vs REM Polishing and Cryo?

What is the difference in the process of Mirconite and REM Polishing tranny and ring/ pinion gears?
Which is better?
Which will reduce more drag and free up more HP?

Also what is your thought about Cryo?
Pro and con’s for all?

I believe that micronite is an abrasive slurry, whereas REM is a chemical process. I have some experience with both, and for what I've seen and heard they seem to achieve the same result.

I heard the hype about Micronite while on the power tour. They claimed a typical GM 10-bolt ring and gear micronited freed up an additional 15hp and 15 tq. If that's true, that's a damn good hp/$ mod considering the cost is around $300 I beleive + install costs.

What if any difference in performance between Micronite and REM?
Which is a better process for reducing drag?

this could be very wrong, VERY, plz correct me if i am wrong

i believe that mikronite is a finishing process used to reduce temps, when i called and spoke with amber and joe@t56rebuilds.com, they said they would recommend that kind of thing for road racers and autocrossers that are gonna be in the high rpms alot. not sure on a power increase or a strength increase, i would have to dig deeper into the subject.

cryo is a process that actually strengthens the gears in the transmission by freezing them to like 300 below zero and then heating them back up i believe. I believe that this process straightens out the molecules in the gear itself and makes for a stronger unit.

hope this helps. this is all transmission information, not ring/pinion/rear end knowledge here.

this could be very wrong, VERY, plz correct me if i am wrong

i believe that mikronite is a finishing process used to reduce temps, when i called and spoke with amber and joe@t56rebuilds.com, they said they would recommend that kind of thing for road racers and autocrossers that are gonna be in the high rpms alot. not sure on a power increase or a strength increase, i would have to dig deeper into the subject.

cryo is a process that actually strengthens the gears in the transmission by freezing them to like 300 below zero and then heating them back up i believe. I believe that this process straightens out the molecules in the gear itself and makes for a stronger unit.

hope this helps. this is all transmission information, not ring/pinion/rear end knowledge here.

Thanks, I am looking for tranny info now.

I do beleive that Microniting using walnut shells at high pressure to polish the ring and pinion to the point that they are so smooth and polished that they actually look chromed. This supposedly reduces the frictional losses.

Sounds great in theory, but I don't have any personal experience with it.

Does anyone know of a shop that does Mirconite and or REM?

Here you go http://www.vincihighperformance.com/MIKRONITE%20PROCESSED%20PRODUCTS.HTML

I knew I saw one of the sponsors did this.

HRP World (http://www.hrpworld.com/client_images/text/109_1.pdf#search=%22hrpworld%20isotropic%20finishi ng%22) specifically, is known as one of the best in the business and has better pricing than most due to their volume of work. Here is the direct PDF for their services dealing with REM specifically REM finishing (http://www.hrpworld.com/client_images/text/109_1.pdf#search=%22hrpworld%20isotropic%20finishi ng%22).

The other 'best known' in the business is RPM Transmissions (http://www.rpmtransmissions.com/) who uses Performance Metal (http://www.performancemetal.net/) to do the actual REM/Cryo work.

These are the two cats that have Katech and Pratt&Miller for a reference client-base. So you know their stuff is up to the test.

CRYO-REM (http://www.procryo.com/RemGears.html) is really the cats meow and is now finding its way into everything.

Sounds like a great idea for people going to 9" or 12 bolts. You could gain back a little of the hp lost to larger gears, and the increased drag associated with them.

Which one is better? At first glance REM sounds better.

i did the ring and pinion testing for vinci. the results are from my 00 formula.

here's the results from that
http://www.vincihighperformance.com/MIKRONITE%20MAIN%20PAGE.HTML

Does anyone know of a shop that does Mirconite and or REM?


I beleive it was Crane Cams that has exclusive rights to the micronite process..(done with walnut shells) ..they had a very nice slick paper hand out on the Power Tour that made some large claimes..as with all advertising I am skeptical to say the least.. :eyes: ..their claimes would be good if only half of it were true...I don't have any positive or negitive feedback on the process except for what the guy on the tour was telling me and their printed info sheet.. if it was in fact 100 % true it would be a good mod to do to parts for longivity and less friction..:)

REM looks like electropolishing. May be somewhat differnet, but it was a chemical polishing process that would have a similar effect. Wher I had seen it dones was a tube bundle for a heat exchanger. The bundle had to be food grade, so the entire bundle tubes and welds were electropolished which was the only way to reach every part of the bundle.

Cryo is well proven, and we've used it both in automotive, and in firearms with good success.


Anyone done any metalax sonic stress relieving of finished parts?

We have been utilizing micro-polishing, cryogenics and dry-film lubricants in our high performance differentials for over 3 years now with outstanding results and each certainly has it's place in specific applications. All of these metallurgical treatments are nothing new and is/has been used in the aerospace industry for decades now, with it only starting to trickle down to the HP automotive industry as commonplace within the last 10-15 years or so. When performed properly, it's quite effective.

BTW- RPM Transmissions uses our differential products.


DTE

Phil,

Have you done an A-B test of the treated/cryo'd/DFL diff to see what if any measureable gains you saw? If so, what were they?

Phil,

Have you done an A-B test of the treated/cryo'd/DFL diff to see what if any measureable gains you saw? If so, what were they?

Micro-polishing: We've measured a direct drop in mean differential lubricant temperature of 12* to 16* using MP finishes compared to standard, as machined finishes utilizing a thermocouple temperature probe inserted in the sump of a C5 Corvette differential case. Great for high-heat environments like road racing and auto-crossing.

DFL: We've set up some drag racing only differentials with this and one that is competing in Speedweek at the Bonneville Salt Flats this year to reduce parasitic drag at elevated ring gear RPM. Combine this treatment with MP and one can effectively run the differential purposefully low on lubricant to reduce internal windage AND reduce drag by being able to run very light differential oils to further reduce parasitic drag w/out burning up the ring gear from excessive friction due to lack of lubrication.

Old racers trick we used to use back in the day...ran 0w "sewing machine" oil in our racing differentials when we competed in Stock Eliminator in NHRA to pick up a few hundreths in very competitive classes. Basically as long as the gears got just barely "wet" to stay lubed, all was good...

Cryogenics: We were the first to pro-actively use cryogenics in the C5 and C6 Corvette platform about 3 years ago to promote long-term gear life when used in a wide range of applications-including racing. Quite effective on the relatively soft (promotes quiet gear operation) C5/C6 ring & pinon sets and our warranty claims were cut in less than half the moment we began using cryogenics as standard in ALL of our differential gear sets regardless of build stage. We've never changed those policies/methods to this very day.


DTE

Cool. That's some great info on the processes.

Anywhere else to gain with-in the rest of the drivetrain? Engine area's like Piston skirts, tops, port chambers, exhaust chambers?

Thanks for all the feed back, this is very helpful.
I guess I will use some of these processes in the future.
Bob

Have you seen any HP gain?

This link is more informative and has some direct comparisons.
http://www.vincihighperformance.com/MIKRONITE%20MAIN%20PAGE.HTML

Great link Joe!

Thanks Joe, I had read that link as it was posted by mrr23. I was wondering if DTE had seen the same sorts of gain, and if it they had seen the same results.

Great link Joe!

amazing. i posted that exact link back in post #12
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5430379&postcount=12

but yeah, great link joe.

Great link mrr23 & Joe, Good info, Although I did grin and giggle at the Mikronite processed machete!!
Thanks.

I have been using MWe's Supra-Fin process on soft Pro gear and hard street gear sets and have been very impressed with the results. How does this process compare?
Are the benifits of the Mikronite process great enough to offset the higher cost when compared to the Supra-Fin process?
It's always nice to have another choice :)

amazing. i posted that exact link back in post #12
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5430379&postcount=12

but yeah, great link joe.

Yeah, but I posted it back in the #9 position...lol

It's all good.

Yeah, but I posted it back in the #9 position...lol

It's all good.

yours was to the products page, which is much appreciated. mine was to the gear testing page as was joe's.

we're just pee ons.

you're right though, it's all good. i was just busting balls.

I found the hand out that I got from Crane Cams concerning the mikronite proces. Try looking at mikronite.com for more info on the process.. :)

Whats does the process cost? Lets take a set of differential gears as an example.

Whats does the process cost? Lets take a set of differential gears as an example.

For typical 9" and 12 bolt gear sets:

Cryo-isotropic process (Cryo-REM) $175 to $250 and up. ...but if you do some shopping you can usually find some bargains for REM process.

Mikronite $200 and up.

Supra-Fin $125

Cool. That's some great info on the processes.

Anywhere else to gain with-in the rest of the drivetrain? Engine area's like Piston skirts, tops, port chambers, exhaust chambers?
I want to know this also, crank bearings, pushrods ect.

for those looking for some light reading, look at the car craft jan 2007 issue page 44.

im waiting for that issue to show up in my mail box, I swear the mailman reads my car mags....

For typical 9" and 12 bolt gear sets:

Cryo-isotropic process (Cryo-REM) $175 to $250 and up. ...but if you do some shopping you can usually find some bargains for REM process.

Mikronite $200 and up.

Supra-Fin $125


I'm about to build a 9" for road racing (I plan to use Richmond's lightened gears). Should I Cryo., Mikronite, and/or do the Supra-Fin? I know Cryo. is specificly for hardening the gear (don't know if that is needed with hard gear sets like Richmond and others). What's the advantage/difference between the Mikronite and Supra-Fin?

I'm about to build a 9" for road racing (I plan to use Richmond's lightened gears). Should I Cryo., Mikronite, and/or do the Supra-Fin? I know Cryo. is specificly for hardening the gear (don't know if that is needed with hard gear sets like Richmond and others). What's the advantage/difference between the Mikronite and Supra-Fin?

I personaly don't think think that the Cryo is a necessity with the Richmond's if you supper-polish.

Any of the three processes would do well for you.
As for the difference between the Mikronite and Supra-Fin, Well, They both yield very similar results each from it's respective proprietary process. I think that the biggest difference is going to be in the cost.
I have not had much experience with the Mikronite but I have used Cryo-Isotropic (Cryo-REM) and Isotropic (REM). I have also used the Supra-Fin with excellent results.

Here is some good info on supper-polishing:
http://gltrs.grc.nasa.gov/reports/2005/TM-2005-213958.pdf
http://ammtiac.alionscience.com/pdf/AMPQ7_1.pdf
http://gltrs.grc.nasa.gov/reports/2000/TM-2000-210044.pdf

Maggie

What results are you seeing on the track?

Maggie

What results are you seeing on the track?

Certainly the most apparent results are increased longevity, lower case/lub temps and very little or no break-in at all required. On lightweight gear sets shattering was a big problem which was greatly reduced with the supper-polished gear sets. This is enough to justify the cost of the process imo.

As far as on track results, it is very hard to attribute exact gains to the gears...unfortunately the type of data logging needed to verify such gains was not always availble: Just for what it worth, On a Stock Eliminator car, that we were able to use as a test mule, when we compared data logs from with/without we saw a 17 hp gain in calculated horse Power with a REM processed tranny and final gear set.

I personaly don't think think that the Cryo is a necessity with the Richmond's if you supper-polish.

Any of the three processes would do well for you.
As for the difference between the Mikronite and Supra-Fin, Well, They both yield very similar results each from it's respective proprietary process. I think that the biggest difference is going to be in the cost.
I have not had much experience with the Mikronite but I have used Cryo-Isotropic (Cryo-REM) and Isotropic (REM). I have also used the Supra-Fin with excellent results.

Here is some good info on supper-polishing:
http://gltrs.grc.nasa.gov/reports/2005/TM-2005-213958.pdf
http://ammtiac.alionscience.com/pdf/AMPQ7_1.pdf
http://gltrs.grc.nasa.gov/reports/2000/TM-2000-210044.pdf

So who would I call to get a set of lightened 9" gears mirco-polished (since you said Cryo is probubly pointless on such hard gears anyways)? Who would you say I go through?

even better... A video for those who don't want to read. lol!

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/e2b71bdc-80e6-4d03-81c9-987100245b61.htm

enjoy.

How much strength, if any would cryo treatment add to an aluminum block? If we were doing an all out build and didn't want to add the weight of the iron block, could cryo significantly increase the strength of the alum. block and limit or eliminate distortion?

even better... A video for those who don't want to read. lol!

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/e2b71bdc-80e6-4d03-81c9-987100245b61.htm

enjoy.


on that video, the guy mentioned they WILL NOT do "used" gears......that seems rather stupid as I know PERSONALLY I am not about to buy all new gear sets for a tranny if the current ones are in working order (low mileage)....

I have the 4.56 gears out of my 12bolt and I want them done (it would be stupid to buy new gears since these have less than 1K miles on them). Where should I send them?

We will not do used gears because used gears usually have wear ridges in them. The Mikronite process is a surface finishing process that strengthens the outer surface of the material like shot peening but provides a "high-luster" super smooth finish that reduces friction and noise. IT IS NOT A COATING!!! It adds strength in the outer .010 - .014" of the material (verified by x-ray diffraction). Strength in the outer skin of the material is like the strength in a monocoque chassis or an airplane fuselage.

If we processed a used gear set we would make those wear ridges very hard and they would become like hard file teeth and would destroy the rear end. We only want our customers to have success not "self destruct"!

This process has many unique capabilities and that is why it is being used on military applications, many different racing applications (there really are some speed secrets...at least for a little while!), industrial (one company has reduced the number of gun drill bits from 7000/yr to 700/yr), medical, aerospace and others. It is significantly different from REM. Not that REM is bad, but REM does not impart residual compressive stresses in the surface and near surface substrate. Those residual stresses are what strengthen the material. That is what you get in shot peening, but shot peening looks nasty compared to Mikronite. Hope this clears things up a little. If not, come to my seminar at the PRI Show in Orlando. It's Friday, Dec 15 at 9:00AM.

Mark Campbell
VP, Market and Product Development
Crane Cams Inc.

If we processed a used gear set we would make those wear ridges very hard and they would become like hard file teeth and would destroy the rear end. We only want our customers to have success not "self destruct"!

Mark Campbell
VP, Market and Product Development
Crane Cams Inc.


DAMNIT!!!!!!! :bang: :(

oh well....guess I'll just have to run what I have... :(

So at a macro (how, if at all, should it change?) and microscopic level (what do the surfaces look like before and after) how does the break-in process compare on treated vs. standard gears? I'm a little confused by the 'ridges' reference. Aren't gears often run together during the manufacturing process to improve stress distribution, etc., and if so, how would the surfaces differ from those of low-mileage, properly broken-in 'used' gears? :confused:

http://mikronite.com/overview.asp

Yeah, Mikronite is good stuff. I read in a MM&FF last year that you can use this process on just about anything. They did a set of valve springs, and it increased the strength of them by a very significan't ammount. They also treated a Ring and Pinion set, Cam, Crank, set of pushrods, set of Connecting rods, and I think even a cylinder head.

It's almost like it's too good to be true since it strengthens the item, reduces the friction, and lower's operational temperatures. I'm not 100% on it, but I think it mentioned that a race team was pretty much treating their whole drivetrain with Mikronite.

http://mikronite.com/drivers.asp

drivers who use mikronite.

Mikronite doesn't really increase strength property of metal. The metal can already do that but the manufacturing technique has made the product inferior. Mikronite just helps get it back closer to an ideal part.

When you test things in an engineering enviroment you set up an equation for how strong a metal bar would be based off alloy, diameter, and impurities. Then, subract out surface finish (mikronite changes that), notch factor (hope you don't have those), and other things which you don't want to know about.

Rough surface finish 'weakens' the metal because the rough areas in the metal serve like conduits making it easier for cracks to start. If the surface is smooth it is harder for the cracks to start as it is like hitting a perfectly flat wall and not having any corners to get leverage on.

If the cracks can't start, then they can't become progressive. Then, your part won't fail under the same forces.

How would this last on a street car? Wouldn't a wear pattern appear after so long since its a street car and cancel out the gains?

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but can you do a cryogenic treatment and then a mikronite treatment on the same gears (or whatever part)?

How much strength, if any would cryo treatment add to an aluminum block? If we were doing an all out build and didn't want to add the weight of the iron block, could cryo significantly increase the strength of the alum. block and limit or eliminate distortion?

The place that does my Cryo-teatment has seen as much as a 50% increase in strength on aluminum connecting rods. On a set of aluminum heads that I had cryo'd & powder coated, it took 23 minutes for the powder to melt. The place that I had do the powder coating said that it normally only takes 15 minutes for the other aluminum heads that he has treated. The machine shop that I had work on the cryo'd heads however was very confused. They went through almost 3 valve guide reamers before they were done installing the 5/16" guides. So do your machine work first before cryoing your parts b/c they will charge for the extra time spent. For your engine block liners it is suggested by my cryo guy to just bore the liner's and then finish hone the block (or crankshaft) after the cryo treatment.

In addition to polishing the surface, Mikronite imparts residual compressive stresses (much the same as shot peening) to the surface and near surface substrate. Cracks cannot initiate in areas of compressive stress. Cracks initiate in areas of tensile stress. From what I have read, another advantage of mikronite (compared to REM or just polishing) is that mikronite does not change the profile of the gear teeth. Any uneven polishing of the gear teeth can affect noise and vibration and compromise ultimate strength of the gear teeth.

I would imagine that mikronite could be used with cryo for a super strong piece. Let's face it, cryo does not affect the surface finish and the real benefits of cryo are deeper in the material. Mikronite works at and near the surface.

I had it done to a new 3.73 set (same as original) in my 2WD Tahoe for theRWHP and fuel economy improvement. Still putting mileage on the new wheel bearings before Vinci dynos it for a accurate HP assessment! Mileage looks like it has gone up about 1.4-1.6mpg on my normal highway driving. That seems like what it should be if there is a 10 -14 HP increase at the rear wheels. SOTP, there is a definite HP gain. We will find out how much soon. I will be sure to post.

So would there be a significant increase in strength on an iron block? I'm assuming I should have it machined first... Would there be any noticeable benefits?

So would there be a significant increase in strength on an iron block? I'm assuming I should have it machined first... Would there be any noticeable benefits?

When you cryo gray cast iron you will gain 97% increase in strength. As the piston cycles you will have less bore distortion and better ring seal. The other benefit that you will get by cryoing your materials is that they "slip" between each other freeing up friction. You will also wear out your rings before you will your cross hatching marks.

When you cryo gray cast iron you will gain 97% increase in strength. As the piston cycles you will have less bore distortion and better ring seal. The other benefit that you will get by cryoing your materials is that they "slip" between each other freeing up friction. You will also wear out your rings before you will your cross hatching marks.
So worth it... Here's a related question/idea. What about a micronite treatment to the cylinder walls?

I would think that you need a certain type of finish that would only be obtained with the friction and wear that the contact between the rings and the cylinder walls would produce to get that good piston ring cylinder wall seal for peak compression ... :)

I agree that a micronite finish on the cylinder walls would not be beneficial. I would keep it at the cryo process. What I meant by wearing the rings out first is that they will wear faster than the cylinder wall surfaces will.

I see. But what about a micronite treatment to the piston skirts for reduced friction?
edit: for that matter, what about the entire piston...

This thread got me wondering how it would affect internal motor friction. Most rods people go with are strong enough w/out this. But I was thinking about the crank and pistons. If mikroniting the crank, you should shed some friction, free up some power, along with the pistons, strengthen them a bit, also smooth out the tops even more, less likely to have hot spots possibly?

If you had the crank finished, would it still be ok the make the clearances a lil "loose" to free up some power as done in race motors? Or would it be too loose?

yes you can cryo and mikrontie. I just did some of my trans parts. :)

and mikrontie has been around for a long time! no longer a well kept secret! damnit cost is rising as well! :( oh well.

I know that a10 bolt is not as strong as a 9inch or 12 bolt,but ive seen many A4 run in the 10's in a stock 10 bolt.Do guys think putting in micronite gears is worth it in a 10 bolt?

Would this be benificial for a cam...or is it mainly for ring and pinions?

An awesome polish that gets the cam crazy smooth could help, probably not near enough to justify it.

Cryogenically treating the block, pistons, rods, etc. would actually be pretty badass.

The polishing techniques just reduce the amount of abnormalities along the surface planes, this is great when the variance among it to be realllly small. Considerably less friction, thus less heat.

Cryo is a different process, it's stress relief and strengthening.
Supercool the material in LN02 or whatnot, slooooooowly bring it back up to temp, slightly heat treat it enough just a tad, repeat a few times, and you'll have a very very strong product, that'll wear phenominally slow.

Would this be benificial for a cam...or is it mainly for ring and pinions?
Are you refering to the cryo process? Because I was wondering the same thing... especially on a high lift solid grind...

Are you refering to the cryo process? Because I was wondering the same thing... especially on a high lift solid grind...

Yes it does increase the strength on your camshafts. If it is a solid or hyd flat tappet core that is a cast material the strength goes up 97%. If it is a solid or hyd roller cam the alloy steel will increase strength by 131%. These strength factors are with a 24 hr. soak time at -300* below zero. You would want to check into how long the company, you are planning on useing, has the soak time. It would be more beneficial to have a 32 hr. soak time. http://www.cryogenictechnologies.com/

The micronite process does increase strength as well. It surface hardens the material deeper than regular shot peening when looking at compressive stress. They do this by useing specific ceramic media for the application. http://www.wpctreatment.com/technical2.htm

So, if you treat your hydraulic flat tappet cam to cyro and mirconite, do you then have to treat all of your flat tappet lifters to it as well? It seems like you would be tearing up lifters due to the increased hardness of the cams.

No, the lifter's are already a harder material than the cam. But If you decide to cryo the lifter you have to dis-assemble them. When you cryo a spring it has to be done in a unsprung state, b/c when it stress relieves the part it will take all of the spring tension out of it if it is left under tension. So far I have had zero failures with my cryo'd cams without cryoing the lifters.

here's a question for ya. What material is your typical main bearing made from... follow?

What brand? What series?

Oh I don't know... I'm just wondering if you could postpone bearing failure by making the bearings stronger/more wear resistant.

If you go back to the link for the WPC treatment you will find examples on the micronite process on them. They also have a list of other components that they have treated as well. I have no idea how much the cryo process would gain you in terms of strength.

I'm thinking about getting my new gears Mikronite, but it cost $250 :thumbsdow On the other hand, it looks like REM is $100 at Perf. Metal and $125 at HRP. Can anybody see spending that much more for Mikronite over REM? :suspiciou

I have used REM and also Micronite treatment in my prevous race car. Still have both transmssions. I have a Tremec 600 that has the REM process. I also have a Tremec 500 Trans that had the Micronite treatment.

The REM is a chemical polish much like an acid of some kind. The micronte is a fine abrasive that uses walnut shells as a vehicle in the process.

I don't like the REM. It seems to reduce the sizing of the components. The Tremec 600 seems "sloppy" when bench test it.
The Micronite treated 500 isn't te same.

I also had the ring and pinion treated in the same car. I truly think that that it's worth a few horsepower.

I have asked several respected racers their thoughts about cryo. They all agree that it makes a part last longer. As far as strength it does nothing in their testing. For wearing parts, rotors, clutch parts etc. it extends the life but does nothing to add strength.

Just a few of my thoughts.

OBTW, all my Micronte was done by Liberty Gears in Michigan.

I am having my trans for my Nova treated there also.

Robin

I don't want to mislead any one here, maybe I misunderstood what told.

DEEP CRYOGENIC TEMPERING

Deep Cryogenic Tempering will improve the performance and increase the life of your metal tools and parts. Our unique process will take metals beyond deep-freeze to cryogenic temperatures. This dramatically improves the performance of particular types of metal tooling and equipment.

• The micro structure is changed. Austenite, a soft carbon present in most metals, is transformed into Martensite, a harder form of carbon.

• During the process small complex carbides called, “ETA” carbides, are formed. These carbides form from the alloy elements that are present in the steel. The carbides create a more coherent crystalline structure resulting in increased wear resistance of the metal.

• Random residual compressive and tensile stresses that have resulted from heat treating or machining are reduced. These random stresses are diminished by the changes in micro structure and from the uniform expansion and contraction created by thermomechanical cycling.

If you go back to the link for the WPC treatment you will find examples on the micronite process on them. They also have a list of other components that they have treated as well. I have no idea how much the cryo process would gain you in terms of strength.

When I looked at the WPC website I didn't find anything about Mikronite, it was about Micro-rite! That definitely isn't Mikronite. Go to www.mikronite.com and look at the animation of the process. The two processes are different!

OBTW, all my Micronte was done by Liberty Gears in Michigan.


Thanks, I didn't know they did it there.