Midwestern Members - What impresses you more??

I accidently deleted the other thread trying to make poll public. I sent all those who posted in the original thread their post from that thread. Please vote again!! Sorry and thanks, Darrin


This thread/poll is not directed at any one person or shop, so please don’t read more into it. This subject comes up fairly often and is more for my own curiosity than anything else. I want to see what the general consensus is. Please vote and post a reply explaining why you voted the way you did.

If there was a shop built car running 7-8’s sitting next to a home built car running a 10-11's, I would be more impressed with “home built” car. Why? Because to me what is the big deal about a 7-8 second shop car? Someone hired a shop to do a job and they did it, like they were supposed to do. Anyone can open their wallet, sign a check, or have their credit card swiped and buy a fast car. As the saying goes “How fast you want to go? How much do you want to spend?”

With a home-built car you know someone spent some time researching what parts to use, what labor is involved, and what tools are needed to build the car. They took the risk that if they chose the wrong parts or assembled something wrong they would have no one to blame but themselves. There is also a certain amount of personal pride in doing a job yourself. Home built cars should always go faster for the buck spent compared to a shop car. That is why a home built car assembled, running, built in a garage is for more impressive to me. My 2 cents.

I know there are home built cars running the same times or faster than shop built cars. But if I had a poll which would you prefer a 8 second home built or a 10-11 shop built car I pretty much could have guessed the results LOL. I just wanted to know what someone is impressed with, even if it was slower.

Home built. I respect the shop built cars but I'm impressed by the guy down the street who put his own blood and sweat single handidly into his own car to achieve a dream. If that guy built his car to run 10's and still drive it to work everyday on his own dime then they should be applauded.

I voted for home built. The fun part for me is the hands-on, learning as you go. I get a greater sense of pride knowing that I made it, which makes it a part of me. Mashing the loud pedal, banging gears and laying stripes is much more satisfying knowing I built it myself.:drive:

i voted shop built.

we can go 10s in a stalled auto with a cam and n2o...fairly easy in the grand scheme of things.

getting a car to the 8s, regardless of the source, takes a shit ton of time, knowledge, and money...#2 being the most important.

i saya shop built mainly becuase i just dont have the time to work on my car anymore... dont get me wrong i love working on my car and i wish i could, but with me working 7 days a week 75 hours a week between two jobs... i just dont have the energy to work on it. i barely have enought time to browse LS1Tech haha. GETTING OLD SUCKS!!! :jest: :cry:

i said shop because whether its shop built or done in your garage, 8 seconds is damn fast

now if the question was shop vs. home both being 8s, id go with the home built as most average people don't have the funds/knowledge to build an 8 second car

What defines "home built"? I'd say most of the cars you guys classify as "home built" aren't completely owner built, meaning the engine, trans, rear end, etc. was probably built elsewhere and installed by the owner. Not too hard IMO. Alot of guys don't tune their own stuff either. Bolting parts on doesn't impress me, its not that hard. I've done it, its hard work that takes time, but it doesn't require a college degree or anything. I'm impressed by fast cars period, I couldn't care less who assembled it. I've seen hack jobs from shops and individuals alike, and I've seen good craftsmanship from both too.

This is the first car I've had where I haven't done most of the work, and I've owned alot of cars. I no longer have the time to do it all, so I have shops do the work sometimes. I don't regret a thing. I bought a 12 bolt rear end from Billingsley racing. He installed it and the DS and TA for $300. It would have taken me 6 or 8 hours to do that. I can make much more than $300 in that amount of time, so finacially its smarter to have it done by a shop. My tranny guy R&R's my tranny for free, because he likes to set up the shift points and monitor everything while its in the car. You'd be a fool to pass up a free tranny R&R on an F body. I had FLP install my engine and blower, and make the ic piping, and tune it. I could have installed everything and brought the car to them to build piping and tune it, but again, in that amount of time I can make more than they charge, and I do not miss the headaches of building shit. Also, these guys do this shit every day, they are way less likely to fuck something up, and if they do, they have to fix it.

I'm going to sound like a dick now, but I think people like to badmouth shop built cars because they are jealous that they couldn't afford to do it too. Its like how we all like to badmouth Vipers because we are faster, but deep down we'd love to have one too.

Like I said, these "owner built" cars are really just owner assembled, which IMO is the easy part. Building engines, trannys, rear ends, painting, etc. all require skill most don't possess, the few gearheads that can actually do all that, well they impress me. But, they also probably work in the automotive field.

"Home built" without question! Anyone with money or good credit can drop a car off, wait for the phone call to pick-it-up, and then pay for it. There is nothing wrong with this at all. It just pisses me of when the person that writes the check grows a raging hard-on and gets cocky about their car.

"Home built" cars are paid for with hard earned money, blood, sweat, tears and the more often then not, cursing the world around them. It takes trial and error, research, time away from family, heavy drinking with friends in the garage, the occasional calling in sick to work because your parts came in, and constant dialing-in your car at the track. Not to mention a personal touch that can't be bought with money. Plus it's that much more rewarding when all you've invested pays off when it's runs a number that you hoped for.

When you pay a shop to build a car, aren't you just paying for an insured time slip? :confused:


Tim

Home Built..... No Question about it. :judge:

i barely have enought time to browse LS1Tech haha. GETTING OLD SUCKS!!! :jest: :cry:

Getting old? You've only been legally able to drive for 4 years :jest:

I voted homebuilt. Its a pita working on a car without a lift. If a shop cant put together an 8 second car they shouldnt be in buisness.

homebuilt apples to apples. this poll isn't apples to apples really. because whoever said its not that hard to put an ls1 in the 11's, etc(even if it only does it twice before breaking something lol), is right. but ET vs ET, homebuilt is WAY more impressive.

people who argue otherwise don't work on their own cars much. when you talk to someone who had their shit built by a shop and argue with you on this subject, its pretty obvious talking to them they have no idea what you go through on a daily basis when you build your own car. the time, stress, aggrivation, and just general level of hard work can be tremendous.

Back in the day, 6 years ago who put the first LS1 in the 10's? It sure wasn't any shop!!! Hacker Joe did it in his free time :)

Guys like myself and others who have built and tuned their own 8-9 second cars out of their own garage are highly skilled without a doubt. What do you think would happen if we had the resources that a reputable shop has?

Guys like us make it work using limited resources. It will always take alot of money, but that is a given.

Point being, it is more impressive to see a fast car built by someone who does it as a hobby in their spare time rather than doing it for a profession day after day.

"Home built" without question! Anyone with money or good credit can drop a car off, wait for the phone call to pick-it-up, and then pay for it. There is nothing wrong with this at all. It just pisses me of when the person that writes the check grows a raging hard-on and gets cocky about their car.

"Home built" cars are paid for with hard earned money, blood, sweat, tears and the more often then not, cursing the world around them. It takes trial and error, research, time away from family, heavy drinking with friends in the garage, the occasional calling in sick to work because your parts came in, and constant dialing-in your car at the track. Not to mention a personal touch that can't be bought with money. Plus it's that much more rewarding when all you've invested pays off when it's runs a number that you hoped for.

When you pay a shop to build a car, aren't you just paying for an insured time slip? :confused:


Tim


I couldn't give a fuck who wrenched on who's car, I'd buy time slip insurance in a heartbeat! You think State Farm has that? :jest:

Also, shop built cars are payed for with the same hard earned money as home built cars, it isn't like every home built car is the underdog ya know. Shop cars vary as well, theres a difference between having a shop build you a motor because you don't have the skill or resources and a shop building a 9 second car for a 17 year old kid who's dad is cutting the check.

I couldn't give a fuck who wrenched on who's car, I'd buy time slip insurance in a heartbeat! You think State Farm has that? :jest:

Also, shop built cars are payed for with the same hard earned money as home built cars, it isn't like every home built car is the underdog ya know. Shop cars vary as well, theres a difference between having a shop build you a motor because you don't have the skill or resources and a shop building a 9 second car for a 17 year old kid who's dad is cutting the check.


Clearly a home built car of equal Et and MPH is respected more. :)

home built hands down... fast cars are impressive and do impress me... but a milder streetable home built car is very impressive.... just something about being able to say "I did this myself"

i said shop because whether its shop built or done in your garage, 8 seconds is damn fast

now if the question was shop vs. home both being 8s, id go with the home built as most average people don't have the funds/knowledge to build an 8 second car

i 2nd that

People get a little crazy about this subject! I have had both. I have installed my motors, trans, fuel systems,rear ends,nitrous kits, ect... I've also had Speed do heads, cam, motor r&r, install boost controller, fab up headers for turbo and cold side. The older I get the cheaper I get and do more of the work. I can't weld for shit, so I pay people to do that. I have no problem paying people to do things that can do a job better than I could. I moved out from my parents house when I was 16, been on my own ever since. Started my own business from scratch, never had ANYTHING handed to me.

It cracks me up when people get salty when people can afford to have work done for them. I do alot of my own work now because I'm getting cheap and if I have time I like working on my car. I don't feel like a super hero because I can. If you have a decent set of tools and a torque wrench it really isn't hard. The hardest thing to learn I think is tuning, that's a pain if you've never done it before. That's what I love Jim @ speed for! He's the master.

To sum it up, I say to each thier own. What ever makes them happy!

andy just hit alot of it on the head there. i do my own work because its what i've always done, for two reasons. when you are broke teenager and can bareliy afford the parts, you are willing to take the hard knocks to learn how to install shit yourself in your garage on jackstands with limited resources, and that's what i was when i started fuckign with this car.

now i could afford to pay someome but after all the years of relying on my boys at Speed for my parts and just building mysetups myself, i can't bring myself to do it, no matter how angry, upset, frustrated i get with the car sometimes. i can't handle the car not being in my garage, i get REALLY nervous when its anywhere else.

it also a safety thing for me. i won't take a highly modified car down the track that i didn't help build. anything in the 10's or faster i better know exactly how that car was built before i'll drive it. i've worked on quite a few cars that were built by shops and i found some really scary shit on them. stuff that could get people killed. when i'm wrenching, i don't worry about taking too much time to triple check shit, i don't have my mind on other stuff cuz i'm having a bad day, etc, etc. i know its done RIGHT.

its all about trust. Speed inc is the only shop i would ever let touch my car(and they have, Dan setup a couple of 9" pumpkins for me and Jim is the only person that every has tuned my car before timmy and i took it over this year) b/c i know those guys and they are very careful about what they do every day.

Home built:

I used to go to shops for everything I could barely change my oil. LOL Then I became friends with BigD. He saw how much I spent to get a motor rebuilt at a shop once and I guess felt sorry for me. He offered to help me on my car if I wanted. That was six years ago. Since then with help from him I have done basically all the work on my car, from building motors to tuning. Sometimes it is hard work and trying to find the time I wonder if it is worth it to work on the car myself. In the end though there is no greater personal satisfaction than doing the work myself and going down the track in a car I built. Running “the number” now is secondary. That is why I find home built cars more impressive. I realize all the hard work and time that went into them. Plus the money saved working on my own car allows be to have have other hobbies as well.:) Me and John used to do battle on who was faster back in the day, but I enjoy running in class racing now. I do have to say I haven't missed a season racing. :) Thanks,BigD
Gotta go, have to assemble the C5R Block today.

I say home built.
Reasons
1. I build my own cars and always have. With the help of friends and parts stores.
2. The feeling you get when you meet your goal.
3. The knowledge of all the times trying different stuff.

Shop built.
I know a couple people who have shop built cars. The reason My friend has a shop built car is for the fact that he dont have the time, knowledge, or tools to do his own work, but he does do all his own tuning. The thing will make a shop built car cool is attitude of the owner. My buddy car has gone 11.1@124 N/A. He is just out having fun and loves racing at the track. He is as far from cocky as it gets. So I think it just depends on the owners also.

The only way you learn anything and actually gain technical skill is by doing it yourself. Home built all the way. I've never let a shop do anything on any car I've ever owned and never will. To this day I haven't met someone with a shop built car that had a clue about their car and wasn't the cockiest little bastard ever, but about 90% of the people with shop built cars are import kiddies with big mouths and horrendously slow pieces of shit. It sure is fun landing on them hard.

Getting old? You've only been legally able to drive for 4 years :jest:


yup, you are right. my point was that when i was 16-17 i had little to no responsability and now that i am 20 and having to work 2 jobs to pay off my car, insurnace, rent, etc. etc. i dont have the time and its becuase i am getting older... i know it happens to everyone but if i had a choice i would love to go back to being that age and working on my own car instead of worrying if i will be able to make enough money to live on... i have the knowledge to work on my car ( ive been taking automotive classes since i was 15) but the time aspect is the issue...

I don't care whether folks did 0-100% of the work on their cars, and I'm interested in faster cars.

i voted shop built.

we can go 10s in a stalled auto with a cam and n2o...fairly easy in the grand scheme of things.

getting a car to the 8s, regardless of the source, takes a shit ton of time, knowledge, and money...#2 being the most important.

Bino Bango Bongo. An 8second car is a whole lot more than juice and a cam. There tons of suspension and every other aspect put into it. That gets my vote.

John, you only say that b/c you don't build your setups. I will bet you anything that if you did you wouldn't be speaking so flippantly, you just don't understand where we are coming from, where as its not hard for us to put ourselves in your shoes, that's all.

I firmly believe that until someone has gone through the crap it takes to build and maintain your own race/street car you really can't comment accuratly on this subject. just my opinion. like any discussion, you can't really be true to it without understanding both sides.

I should say that I think EVERYONE should wrench on their own shit at some point in time, just to able to diagnose and understand mechanical things. I've built several cars, so I have no shame having work done on my car. I know I could do it, and would if I had to, and thats good enough. I don't think a newbie should drop off a 14 second car that he doesn't understand how to rotate tires on and have a 10 second car built out of it. Its going to be problems anyway because he's not going to maintain it properly or understand what does what.

The only way you learn anything and actually gain technical skill is by doing it yourself. Home built all the way. I've never let a shop do anything on any car I've ever owned and never will. To this day I haven't met someone with a shop built car that had a clue about their car and wasn't the cockiest little bastard ever, but about 90% of the people with shop built cars are import kiddies with big mouths and horrendously slow pieces of shit. It sure is fun landing on them hard.


That was seriously one of the dumbest statements I've read. First off, if 90% of the shop cars built are imports how the fuck do companies like Speed inc, FLP, Stenod, W2W, etc. stay so busy? Secondly, there are a ton of members here with shop built cars who are very capable and intelligent when it comes to cars and racing. I guess you just haven't met any of us. You should get out more. Lastly, "90%" of the "big mouthed" members with shop cars here would most likely land on YOUR shit. I can't recall the last shop car that only ran 12's. Most of them are very fast. I don't know you, but unless you have an 8 second ride, you might just wanna shut up.

Okay Sean, time for me to react to your comment. You are an idiot, and here's why.

You are what, 26? I am 39. I have swapped rearends, exhaust, wheels, fuel tanks/pumps, and helped drop shortblocks into cars ever since like 1991. I had a 68 Chevelle 300 that was inline 6 car that I bought for $500 in 1992, that me and my old buddy Alex swapped in a 1967 327ci with camel hump heads, and a Summit Edelbrock RPM upper half. Oh wait, we also swapped in a T350 and a 12 bolt from another car. Oh wait, I remember dropping the fuel tank in my 1970 Chevelle SS back 1993 to change the fuel pump. Oh wait, I remember swappng the rear springs and shocks on my old 68 Chevelle SS so I could jack up the back to fit big tires in 1992. Case in point, I bought 15x5/15x10's used up at Skips swap meet and they were beautiful. Too bad I never researched whether the rears would fit. the rims stuck out about .5 from the wheel well when I went to put on tires/rims in back. My guess is that they were from a Corvette. So I went to Forest City Auto Parts on Western by Belmont (since gone), and the parts guy and I figured out that 1972 Buick Electra 225 rear shocks and rims would probably raise up the rear of the car about an inch. It worked.

Oh wait, I put ladder bars on that 68 Chevelle SS... what a pita. Took forever. Alex and I finished around 3am. Went to work at 7am the next day.

Oh wait, I had a 89 lx hatch, and we put headers on that.

Oh wait, I had a 98 Camaro SS, we put headers on that. I did that with my buddy Herb who had a shop.

Now keep in mind, that many times I had buddies with engine hoists and full tools, where I did not. So if Alex had an engine hoist, I would naturally bring the car there, and we would bang out the swap together.

Oh wait I changed the alternator on my 64 GTO in college back in 1987 in the parking lot of my dorm. Did you know me back in 1994 when I had 5 cars? Did you hang out with me at Fluky's when I have one of my Chevelles, my 69 Z/28, or my 4 spd P-code 63 Galaxie?

A few weeks ago Magnus and I pulled the shortblock and trans out of his car. I didn't really post that because who cares.

Do you remember when some of the MFBA guys would go by Henry's house, or Hacker Joe's shop to work on cars back in 98-00? Am I supposed to keep track of whether I helped henry do his headers, or that Paulie, Hacker Joe and put the 9" in the Formula?

If you want to carry on about whether folks wrench or note, also keep in mind that I have made twice what you posted a few weeks ago ever since about 1993 so when I trade off having to work versus wrenching all nite, or not working regular like some folks, I make the trade-off to work.

So I really don't car if the owner of a car did 5% of the work or 100%. If I was retired I would do all the work myself, and I would take much longer since I would not be in a hurry. For me it comes down to time, and also comes down to abilities. Speed Inc. welds, I do not. My friend John offered to teach me how to weld, so I am going to take him up on that. When I have time. :)

I don't care whether folks did 0-100% of the work on their cars, and I'm interested in faster cars.

Hah! That's the best response so far. An 8 second car will get my interest more than a 10-11 second car no matter who built it. Like John said, I don't care who built the car, just interested in the car.

The original question was.. "If there was a shop built car running 7-8’s sitting next to a home built car running a 10-11's, I would be more impressed with..." A 7 second car is more impressive than a 10 second car no matter who built it.

I'm impressed by whatever car is faster and wins the race. And I never ragged on Silvertoast when he was having fuel problems, like either the pickup is coming off or what, cuz hey he does the work himself so he does not mind dropping tank 3-4 times.

PSJ, you say Sean's 26 and your 39? How do you know what Sean will be making when he's 39? Kind of like comparing apples to oranges if you ask me. Also calling Sean an idiot, whom I thought was your friend seemed inappropriate and a little extreme to me. This is just a hobby don't take it so seriously.

Also why must people who have a shop work on their cars, have to post how they could be making twice the money doing something else rather than working on their cars? Ever hear of people doing it for the pure enjoyment or the challenge? Or an outlet to get away from life's normal "grind". That is why I do it, not because I am poor! That is like me saying that the owners of shop built cars are just lazy.

Um, Sean was the one that acted like I had no idea what the satisfaction is like from doing it yourself.... He never asked what I have done. And my point is that I was doing stuff fourteen years ago. My point about money was just to illustrate what it is I focus on, in lieu of working on my car. It works out that way for me, that I get in at 7:15am and stay to 5-6pm, and then go home and spend 2 hours with my son.

But in all of your examples above it is "us" and "we".Face it John you dont have the actual abilities to do the job. I will give you credit that you have garnered a ton of knowledge over the years that I have known you but that is not the same as doing it yourself. Everyone that has known you for a number of years is aware of that .Sorry John :emb:

Chris, did I ever tell you the difference between some folks? Some folks prefer building it to racing it. I like to drive it, don't care much about building it. You prefer building it. I'd drive your car right now, I bet it would drive real nice. The funny thing is, after all these years, my interest in stuff like welding is more or less academic. It would be nice to learn, but I have no strong desire to buy a rig and use it a lot. I have no desire to fabricate stuff. I just want to go fast. I'm very impressed with your fabrication skills and workmanship, that's why I asked you and Kurt to build the blower setup for me. It worked great and now I want to go even faster. It's been a few years, and now only one guy is down around where I am in terms of best blower ET and MPH, kp. All the power to him that he will run a faster time for a lot less money that I have, but in the end that's not a big deal to me.

In the end, this thread is some folks who are pushing the homebuilt cars should get more props even if they two seconds slower, and I'm saying I don't care NOW, yesterday, or tomorrow who built what, and I definitely don't care who built a 11 second car. I'm extremely impressed with 8 second cars, and fairly impressed with 10-11 second cars. Had the poll said what is more impressive, an 8 second shop-built car or an 8 second homebuilt car, I would say homebuilt all the way. It doesn't get any more impressive than Harlan building an 8.2 combo with his two other buddies.

The other fact of the matter is, that not everyone in this scene wrenches or fabricates for a living. And the 50% or more of the guys who do not, who do other things for a living might only do a little bit of wrenching but still want to go fast. In one respect it's like saying that they are 2nd class citizens because they can't do heads and cam themselves.

I don't care whether folks did 0-100% of the work on their cars, and I'm interested in faster cars.

The original question was, what impresses me more.

A 7-8 second car to me is so much more impressive than a 10-11 second car, no matter who built it, stole it, shit it out of their assholes.. lol

I like faster cars as well. I was so happy when we saw some actually fast cars on Pinks instead of the usual slow crap.

+1 for the faster cars.

i like boobs.

If I can pass my NHRA Physical I will have my Comp license next year.My car is already certified and this winter I will be also. I already have plans made to attend Frank Hawleys' school this winter...........next

eh, i'm not going to take offense to John calling names. in the end, yes BigD he and I are friends, I just like to call him a fag sometimes, that's all.

John your points are valid, I will not take them away from you. But yes, I also noticed the we and us in everything you said.

Why? because there are TWO levels of learning to wrench, the first one is learning from others who show you things, and the next step in my opinion is then forging ahead on your own after you get that help. the second step is the hard one, in which the stress level goes up x's 20.

I will never take away from you the "technical knowledge" you have. You are a bright guy, and can discuss lots of things about building cars, and do it in largely accurate terms, but when it comes down to actually doing it, I will turn wrenches around you 6 ways from sunday, and we both know it, because I do it week in and week out, year round, building new setups and maintaining them.

I spent the first i would say 3 years constantly relying on my friends to come over and show me what the fuck I was doing, because in high school when they were building cars, I was recording my first album and gigging alot, I didn't touch a wrench until I was like 19 or so. These last several years now I have 90% relied upon myself to get the job done, because I can, or if its something harder I haven't done, I have the experience under my belt that allows me to figure it out, even if it takes awhile at first.

That, my dear friend John, is where you stopped, and that is what why I am suggesting you might have a hard time seeing my side of the coin. When you have experienced folks helping with a job, it gets done on the first attempt and in a timely manner, i would know, i was there, and its decieving.

You may know what its like to work on your cars, but you don't know what its like to spend 5 times the hours it should to do something because your pride keeps you working at it, you don't know what its like to go to work on 3 hours of sleep monday through friday any given week so the car can be at the track that weekend, then it breaks something else and you do it AGAIN all over the next week.

You are well aware of all the bad luck and problems I have had this year with my car since my shakedown runs in April.

Would you have the dedication and work ethic to build an entire fuel system and blower setup in 3 weeks and then crack a 10.2 @135 first time out spinning to the 1/8th?
Would you have had the preservance(sp?) to pull the driveshaft, trans, coverter back out b/c your motor was given back to you with no rear oil galley plug in it? Then when you put it all back in, take your brand new heads back off and on the motor 4 times in 2 weeks trying to get them to quit burning coolant? Then drop your tank a few more times and re wire everything trying to get the fuel system bugs worked out? getting upset b/c all the above mentioned work was done a couple times already earlier in the year?

Shit, I spent half my day today getting creative with a cutoff wheel and an old set of stock fans so I could get the car to quit having water temp issues on the street. Would you have taken half your holiday today to wire relays and get those fans in there just to solve a relatively small problem? i did it just so i could beat on it more when i cruise it, that's all, b/c i don't have some fucking race only car, I DRIVE MY SHIT ALL OVER, and i do mean ALL OVER, which means more breaking stuff, more problems, and even more work on my behalf.

I do all this every week while working 10-12 hour days, being there for my family and girlfriend, and working on a new demo album as well.

If you want to focus on money, that's fine. I'm 26, not 39, and I'm allright with grossing 70-75K this year, something tells me at the rate I'm going I'll be right where you are sooner rather than later, but guess what, I'll STILL be building my own shit.

sincerly,
your "idiot" friend.

I voted home built even though mine is a combination of both.

I can see both sides of the coin here.

Some people like to build their own cars, some people just like to race them when they're finished.

I voted home built.
I have a good level of satisfaction from building my car myself. It didn't start out that way though, but the more I got into doing things myself, the more I liked the challenge and learning experience.
Sure, it's not really that fast, but for a car I drive every day, it's good enough for me. It's intent is to be a fast street car, not a race car.

That said, are the shop cars impressive? Damn right they are.
Who doesn't like to see a car go 8s?

Read my post #24, and your post #26. I stated my opinion, and you started to debate or argue your point with me. I'm still happier to have gone 9.40 with a shop build combo than 10.1 home built. I'm glad for anyone who has gone 10.1 it's quite the accomplishment but 9.40 was a fucking rush. I'm sure 8.xx will be too. :devil:

Comparing a 10 second home built car to a 8 second shop built car is hardly a fair comparison. It's more appropriate to compare similar cars built with different means. We built Harlan's car in a 1/2 stall garage. We couldn't even get the doors opened when it was in the garage. If you wanted to get from the front of the car to the back you would have to go through the apartment and in the garage door. He built his motor on the kitchen table and plugged the welder into the electrical outlet his dryer was hooked up to. It was a helluva lot of hard work and agony that built the cars that we've put out. That type of work definitely makes the end result that much more respectable. We definitely recognize the hardwork that others put into their rides too.

We started buying tools for Harlan and I to put our cars together. Suddenly we had a shop that had two mills, a lathe, shear, bandsaws, sanders, welders and all sorts of stuff. In total we had to acquire so much tooling to be able to produce everything that our cars were going to need. Realistically, not every person is going to even remotely consider investing a significant amount of money in tooling to build the faster cars.

Our passion for cars ultimately turned into a business for Stenod out of the simple fact that not everyone has the means to build a car at the level that a shop like ours can. The logistics involved in getting your own 25.5 cage put together now makes it very difficult for a garage built car to come together at the same level. For others they may not trust their abilities to build a safe and reliable car or may not have the time to be able to even do the work required to build a fast car.

So yes, it is very respectable for a home built car to run at the same level. But I don't think I'd venture to even attempt to compare my car which was home built to Tom's car that Stenod just finished. They're not even in the same league despite the fact that mine was respectable at the time, it's nowhere close to what can be built today.

John 400 peeps were saying the same to you, and several in this thread who've known you just as long as myself are flat out saying you have no clue, NOTHING like what I said because that's not what i'm saying to you, whatever got your panties all in a bunch at me is lame.

I just gave you props on some things but am trying to get you to understand where I'm coming from, apparently it isn't working.

Therefore, fuck it, not worth my time.

Derty, that shit is crazy lol. I thought I had limited resources, I don't usually have to go beyond the garage though with my parts lol

I voted 8 sec shop built car.

When it comes to the car itself someone had to build it wether or not it was the owner or a shop.

Now which owner do i have more respect for? The guy who built his 10 sec car. The owner of the shop built car is just a walking wallet.

I don't keep track of who works on who's car... I just look at the cars and if they go fast I go "wowwwwww." And to the topic of the thread, anyone who has ever seen 8 second LS1/LT1 cars is always blown away by them. After spending the weekend at Milan, I yet again blown away seeing Dave Underwood's car, Mike Brown's car, and Tom Kempf's car all running 8's.

what i think is impressive is not even listed... i think a certin et for combo. i dont care who built it! i dont enjoy working on cars, but i love racing them and driving them. so to me its more about hwo fast you can go with what combo and how much money you spent on it.

The combo in my car now cost me next to nothing, and i think it goes pretty good for what it is. and its not just because someone built me a badd ass motor or speed did an amazing job on the tune! to me its everything combined and the most important part is running the car down the track over and over and over again to see what i can do to get it faster with OUT spending little or any money. when we got my ls1 combo done the car went 11.27 first time out, with old tires, ls1 intake 3.73. gear and broken converter.
since the car has gone alot faster... and i think me fucking with it week after week had alot to do with it. dont get me wrong, i gotta give credit where its due and the shops i deal with are amazing.

but when my buddy's compare my car to theirs and my car is faster than alot of there big cube or lighter cars or cars that have 3 tiems the money, that to me is impressive!

if you can go 10's with under 3k in the motor , including short, heads , cam and anything else bolted to it..NOW THATS IMPRESSIVE.

Fact of the matter is, there are like less than 50 8 second LSx cars out there... So most users have never seen in person an LSx car bustin' an 8 second pass. I think more folks who have voted that way if they had been to some of the events.

Come out to 9.23 RSD and there should be some fast cars there.

I think we got carried away in this thread, because some of the posts seemed a little to intense for folks who have supposedly been longtime friends. So I"m done with this thread.... Get'r done!

Personally I am more impressed with a 8 second car built by a shop. Having been around so many 10-11 second cars shop built or home built they just arent that impressive to me.

Now in defense of John I completely understand not always wanting to wrench on your own car. I have paid people to do my entire car and I have done a lot myself, pulling the trans, rear end, gas tank, swapping manifolds, and doing headers. But I understand that I myself have limitations which what I can do and what I have the tools to do. Plus when ever I do shit it always takes me like 3 or 4 times as long as others. I cant always invest that time because I have 50 hours a week of work plus I am a full time student. Sometimes I just want to go out and drive and not be wrenching on the car but I do still enjoy wrenching on my own cars.

John wasnt attacking any of you guys for doing your own work at first so why attack him just because he prefers to drive his cars rather than work on them.

How many of you built your own houses? Probably none of you but does that take anything away from you since you bought it? No because you still worked for the money that bought that house.

There are different ways to enjoy this hobby just because its not your way doesnt mean its the wrong way.

What does building your own house have to do with building your own cars? I don't grow my own vegetables or hunt for my food. This is a car site not Bob Vila's Home Again forum.

John wasn't attacking any of you guys for doing your own work at first so why attack him just because he prefers to drive his cars rather than work on them.

Amen.

What does building your own house have to do with building your own cars? I don't grow my own vegetables or hunt for my food. This is a car site not Bob Vila's Home Again forum.

Lots of people have the money to build houses but not the skill doesnt mean they are lesser of a person than the carpenter that built your house. Its just a example I was trying to use.

You guys seem to be attacking John because he has the money for a fast car but maybe not the skill to build one. There is nothing wrong with that. I think there is a bit of jealously from some others because John can afford to have a fast car built for him and you guys have to build your own. But again there is nothing wrong with paying someone to build your car or doing it on your own.

John isnt taking anything away from you guys so why are you trying to take something away from him?

P.S. Personally I love busting Johns balls about a lot of stuff but I think you guys are just wrong on this one.

What does building your own house have to do with building your own cars? I don't grow my own vegetables or hunt for my food. This is a car site not Bob Vila's Home Again forum.


Yet there are thousands of guys out there who would call you a pussy because you don't hunt.

Ever eat at a restaurant? How come? Can't you cook? Do you own a stove?

I know how to do mechanical work on houses, so I do my own. If you think you're saving money doing all your own work on your car you should see what building your own house would save you. You could buy an extra car or two. But I don't think other homeowners are less intelligent because they can't fix their own shit, they can probably do something I can't do.

Maddboost was making a comparison, and a completely logical one at that. There have been comments made towards members with shop built cars that could be taken in a derogatory manner. Suggesting they aren't as intelligent or capable as those who built their own cars. IMO, very few members here "built" their own cars. 90% of the shit we buy is made for our cars. Spinning wrenches isn't rocket science, and reading instructions isn't either. Some cars have required very little fabrication, while others (particularly the FI ones) require alot of fabrication. To me, when you "build" something you put parts together that didn't fit and you made them fit. Like the guys who build hybrid swaps, like an LS1 in an older car. Installing a pair of heads made for your motor isn't hard, it isn't like they won't fit. Putting a motor in a car that never had it will require some measuring, thinking, and experimentation. When you ordered your catback exhaust, you didn't wonder if it would fit, you knew it would fit (usually lol). Holes line up, Pipes are pre-bent. Not hard, I did it at 16 with a cheap ass socket set.

I just think some guys are getting carried away with the thread, myself included. I still don't care who does what, I just like seeing fast cars.

I like fast cars too.

TS6 some on a hunting site might call me a pussy, some on a animal rights activist site might call me a great guy, but once again this is a car site. Why you getting so worked up? You made a decision to have a shop build your car, good for you, it is your choice. Not everyone has to agree with it.

whatever john i still hate you

Sean are you a theta ki?

You made a decision to have a shop build your car, good for you, it is your choice. Not everyone has to agree with it.

Exactly but the whole reason this debate started was because certain people were harping on John for having his car built.

I think we have two different topics going on here.

I completely agree with Derty that comparing a 8 second car to any 10 or 11 second car is two completely different things.

PSJ is a big boy, (after seeing the NvsS photos I see he is a little bigger, married life is good isn't it John? ;) ) he seems to handle himself quite well. I personally didn't see it as a PSJ "bash fest" but more of a people having a conversation of which they had strong feelings about.

At the end of the day it shouldn't matter how or who built the car, or if he or she will be impressed with it. You should be doing it for one person, yourself. If your happy with what you have and how it was done that is all that should matter.

This is what I posted the first time.

I always feel better when I manage to do something on my own. Now I know there is always going to be something I can't do and for that I pay but if I could do it myself I would. This is why I voted for the home built even if it is home assembled. Doing any part of the job yourself is still more impressive then just paying to have it all done by somebody else.

I'm not worked up, I try not to get too excited about what people on the intarweb think anyway, especially on car sites. The majority always rules, right or wrong. And everyone favors the slower home built car because thats what they have. Any true enthusiast would be more impressed with the faster car, regardless of who built what. If you're not impressed with the faster car, why the fuck are you racing? Isn't being faster the point? Or did I miss the "A for Effort" trophies at my local track?

I'm not worked up, I try not to get too excited about what people on the intarweb think anyway, especially on car sites. The majority always rules, right or wrong. And everyone favors the slower home built car because thats what they have. Any true enthusiast would be more impressed with the faster car, regardless of who built what. If you're not impressed with the faster car, why the fuck are you racing? Isn't being faster the point? Or did I miss the "A for Effort" trophies at my local track?



Out of curiosity what does your car run? Also about drag racing, there are other types of drag racing besides "heads up" there is "bracket" racing.

Hell if I know, I've only had it back for a few weeks and I'm not going to the track until next month it looks like. Its slow for what it has, no doubt. Its very heavy and I'm a shitty driver. Its one of those deals that can pick up 3 tenths with the better driver mod. It *should* crack a high 9. I bet it goes mid 10's if it doesn't break. Thats why I don't talk shit about how fast it is, there are plenty of cars here that are faster than mine for half the money. They are lighter by a huge margin, and I haven't been in anything this fast, so there's sure to be a learning curve.

I would expect my car to run mid 9's at a 3300 lb. raceweight. I'm just not willing to make the sacrifices neccessary to acheive that weight. Sacrifices like not eating cheeseburgers, lol......

Hell if I know, I've only had it back for a few weeks and I'm not going to the track until next month it looks like. Its slow for what it has, no doubt. Its very heavy and I'm a shitty driver. Its one of those deals that can pick up 3 tenths with the better driver mod. It *should* crack a high 9. I bet it goes mid 10's if it doesn't break. Thats why I don't talk shit about how fast it is, there are plenty of cars here that are faster than mine for half the money. They are lighter by a huge margin, and I haven't been in anything this fast, so there's sure to be a learning curve.

I would expect my car to run mid 9's at a 3300 lb. raceweight. I'm just not willing to make the sacrifices neccessary to acheive that weight. Sacrifices like not eating cheeseburgers, lol......

Gottcha, I understand completely. Good Luck with it!!

I didnt vote but Id like to toss an opinion out there.

Who cares who built the car?
What happened to the days of just racing your car and not worrying who built the other guys cars? I dont care if you built it or a shop built it. Either way I would want to beat you.
Does getting beat by a shop car for 5k feel any different than getting beat by a home built car?
NOPE, either way its 5k.

A car is either nice or not, you either give it props or not.
Lets not forget, even when a car is built by a shop, its still a person building it.

You guys are basically debating who has time and knows how to wrench VS who knows what they want and pays for building the combo. Which is a waste.

Last I check, Records are Records. ET is ET.

i voted 8 sec. shop car

A 8 second car is a 8 second car and thats all there is too it :devil:

Looks like this post has "run it's course, like most seem to do here. I have to go now and work on "shop race cars" so I can relax and unwind tonight by doing a little work on "the home built" car. BigD out!

Your locking of the thread is overruled. :)

This is an age old argument between "wrenchers" and "check-writers", and it will never end. There is no right or wrong answer, just opinions. To some people, time is money, and that time is better spent making money. This just leaves less time to do other things, so there are some sacrifices. For example, a guy that makes $100/hr at work is far more inclined to make that money and pay a reputable shop to build his car for $65/hr. There isn't anything wrong with that, and not everyone has the interest in wrenching or buying the tools required.

Many of you know that I used to do 100% of the work myself when I had one car. Now I work longer hours, have a wife and a child, and a few cars. I have to farm some stuff out in order to get things done in a timely fashion. That doesn't mean I don't wrench anymore, I still work on my cars almost nightly. I just get to be selective on what I enjoy working on, and farm the other stuff out. So, I suppose I'm a wrenching check-writer :). Example, I didn't give a crap about working on the '06 Mustang GT, so I dropped it off at G-Force yesterday to have them install the turbo kit. Meanwhile, I'm working on the '98 Formula and assembling the engine for the '69. Stuff I enjoy working on.

Summary: Don't rag on other people just because YOU see things differently. To me, any 8-second car is impressive. An 11-second home built one barely turns my head anymore. A home-built 8-second car is more impressive, but I am happy to check out any fast car, no matter where it came from. Back when I was a broke college kid and was forced to work on my own stuff, I never ragged on the check-writers. I guess some of us have a little more common sense and understand the reasons of other people. Some of you might try and learn that.

Very Good post Tony.

You are what you are so be it.Meaning that you pay when you have become bored with medial tasks.But you still are capable of doing it yourself .I commend you and understand your position.The biggest problem that I have with "shop car owners"Is ALOT of them like to make you believe that they were capable of building it themselves but would rather pay someone .Some can.....most cant .That is why this thread will lead to no end because ego's will not let oneself admit The truth. There are a shitload of impressive cars out there ,people should just give credit where credit is due. Shop cars =shops and employees Homebuilt =the owner or builder. :bang:

Very good post by Tony as usual, well put. someone like you that has 5 projects on the plate at all times i will never fault for outsourcing some of it, i can hardly keep up with my ONE car's constant issues and still have a life, i couldn't wrap my mind around multiple ones.

BUT, like Sikora/z8's said this thread got going really b/c of egos, not much else.

Guys like me,timmy,sikora we get worked up sometimes b/c its just a natural reaction due to the fact that for every 5 shop built car owners we meet out there, 3 of them talk about the car like they built it and give NO credit to who actually put the car together, so I guess its force of habit to get kind of riled up when this subject comes up. no biggie.

Does SOMEONE need a hug? Come see me at RSD on the 23rd.

I thought of another version of "check-writer". I know a few guys that do not physically turn the wrenches on their cars, but they have the knowledge to do so. They are the guys that spec out all of their own parts and products, and have a hand in the overall design or build of the car. Things are built to their ideas, using parts they have selected. That way, when the car is completed, it truly is their own build.

I really don't think I could ever buy someone's completed project and call it my own. It would always be seen as "their car" instead of yours. For example, if someone bought Dave Underwoods yellow Camaro, it would still be seen as Dave's car. If you have no time to wrench, be like the guy I described above, and at least be involved in the build. That way when young ego dudes approach you with questions at the track or car show, you know the answers ;)

I think sometimes you need to build it yourself to apreciate it. yes there are hundreds of 10-11 sec home built cars out there, mine included. however, the feeling of making a pass in something you built yourself far outweighs a faster shop built car in my opinion. yes a high 8 low 9 second car is nuts, that's why i'm staring at a bare ls2 block in my dorm right now that will soon be a home built 9 sec car. notice how I said bare block, not a short. because the feeling of doing everything yourself makes it worth it. even if the car goes 9.9 with what i'm planning i'll still be happy.

Gonna "revive" this thread in honor of BradWS6's 9.88@137 run. Those of you who are impressed with a 10-11 second garage home built special, should really appreciate Brad's accomplishment. Brad this post is for "YOU"!