Dynamometer Results & Comparisons - Highest torque from stock 346 (NA) on pump gas?? Post up if you make 430+

I have been curious about this and I havent found a post about it (only HP) so post them up. If you make over 430 ft-lbs and meet the following:

-Stock 346 bottom end
-Pump gas (no race gas, or mix, just strait pump gas no octane boosters either, if you dynoed with race gas, dont post)
-No power adders, just NA cars

then post the following info:

-dyno graph (SAE #'s only)
-compression ratio
-fuel octane
-setup description (cam, heads, intake, ect)

I know we have a lot of setups making good torque and it seems to thin out at 430 ft lbs, I just would like to see how different setups are doing.

450 rwtq....oh wait, nevermind

way to screw up a thread you ass lol, here is my car...

-AFR 205's at 61cc (-0.6 cc relief)
-0.040" gaskets
-11.4:1 CR
-93 octane
-230/232 on a 112+4
-Ported FAST (by Mamo, noone else touches my shit lol)
-Ypipe setup with cutout

smoothing is at zero because if I didnt do that, the loss of the rpm signal gives me a peak of 598 or something lol

441 rwtq

436 rwtq (old setup)

AFR 205 heads (60cc chamber with 2 cc valve reliefs in pistons)
.045" Cometic gasket
11.3:1 SCR
Thunder Racing TRak Cam 231/234 .643/.598 112LSA +2
FAST 90mm ported by Tony Mamo, Nick Williams TB
Speed Density tuning with no MAF
Open headers
93 octane
http://guerragroup.com/2000TA_SD_dyno2.JPG

Have any of these 430-445 ft lb h/c cars trapped over 125 or 126? At full weight that should be pretty easy to do.

Of course my dyno never reads as high as most out there but I've never seen more than 415rwtq with the big Cam/Head setups yet.
Probly the highest RWTQ was out of my buddies 224 Cam/Home ported head / 11-1 comp setup. He made 435hp/425tq.

I probly could hit a higher TQ # but the cars are 100% street tuned first so there is no detination.I'm sure on the dyno I probly could up the timing to raise torque but it would KR on the street :(

2002 Ws6 Stock bottomend
Home ported 4.8's
226/226 cam
ls6 intake, Hooker headers, dual exhaust...basic stuff really

421rwhp, 420rwtq.....you could really feel the torque in the car, made a heavy car move good for such a mild combo.

Chris

Have any of these 430-445 ft lb h/c cars trapped over 125 or 126? At full weight that should be pretty easy to do.

Jeff,
I agree 100%, any of these high rwhp cars should lay down some serious MPH.
Phil :)

I will hopefully have some track time in about 1.5 months.

I should also mention that my tune I dynoed on was a tune strait off the road, was not touched on the dyno and I get no KR on the street.

Not trying to pee in your cheerios or anything, but Id like to see you make some passes, a 100% pass should trap 127 or so at full weight Id say

Hell Fireballs stock bottom end, runof the mill ported 5.3 heads/Trex cam trapped 128 or 129 a few times and went 10.40s at 3400+lbs on 460 rwhp/410lbft. Some of these cars should be able to do that at 3600 Id think

3200 lbs and 500-530+ rwhp Im waiting to see some 135 mph traps. LGs car did it a while ago but far far from setup to go fast

My former mild mannered 346 build routinely made 435 RWTQ with a few hail Mary runs in the 440/441 range and consistantly laid down 475 RWHP with a few 480/481 runs in there as well. Impressive for a cam with a wide LSA (114) and only 1 degree of advance (113 ICL)....of course the fact it was only 228/228 helped keep overlap down and the intake closing points were still ideal enough to allow that to happen.

MPH did back the dyno numbers (as they should) with a 3450 lb C5 trapping 124 at an "OK" 1500ish positive D/A.

I'm not surprised Mike's car puts down stupid TQ numbers with all the airflow related mods covered (efficient 205's and ported FAST 90) and a cam that's sizable with a reasonably tight LSA, small split on the exhaust (less overlap), and an early intake closing point because of his chosen installed position (108 ICL). I encouraged him to install it straight up at 112....my best guess is the TQ would have been a little less (433-435), BUT, he would have probably cleared 480 RWHP and the curve would have opened up more after peak power.....I bet a 12-15 HP delta at say 7000 RPM. But lets face it, the strong TQ is really fun on the street and 470+ is still impressive and will pull upstairs with authority.

Again Mike....nice work (when is the big stick going in?.....LOL)

Tony M.

PS...I checked the 440+ on the poll with probably a half dozen runs eclipsing that mark, but the reality is I probably had 50+ runs in the 435-437 range which is what I normally quote. As soon as you put some stick to that car (or back the cam up currently installed), your peak TQ will pay a small penalty but the gains upstairs will make that a very acceptable trade off.

honestly Tony Id expect it to mph a bit more than that, but its hard to compare different cars/tracks/drivers etc I know of a lot of 380-410 hp cars trapping 119-122 at weight, another 60 Id think it go 126 all day

haha, he has to get off the line first, and Mike is scared to break the rear end right now..probably because I have been through 9 of them. He was trapping 93 in the 1/8th before the milled heads and ported FAST with a shitty 60' and shitty track. It's a very strong car, feels a helluva lot stronger with the new tq.

honestly Tony Id expect it to mph a bit more than that, but its hard to compare different cars/tracks/drivers etc I know of a lot of 380-410 hp cars trapping 119-122 at weight, another 60 Id think it go 126 all day
Let's be real for a minute....how many stock displacement H/C cars have gone significantly faster than 124 MPH without even taking D/A into account?? The reality is that not many H/C stock displacement cars see better than 124 (a small percentage) and the few that have usually saw closer to zero D/A....and some of them quite a bit below sea level. It's ALL about the D/A. The former package in my car made excellent power all things considered, did so on a half a dozen different dyno's, and did lay down a respectable MPH at the track.

If I were to have run my car a little bit closer to sea level it would have been banging right on the 126 mark (probably 125 and alot of change). If I had the opportunity to run it at 1000 feet below I would have easily cleared 127 MPH....now everything seems right but the reality is nothing has changed.

The numbers are right where they should be for that weight and power output...many a sliderule and a computer program would back me on that.

A new C6 Z06 with less weight, a 427 cubic inch engine, and more average power (or close to the same) goes typically 125 MPH....once again, about right all things considered.

Tony M.

nhra doesnt say nitrous is a power adder, so 444rwtq @5600 cutting out :), otherwise 320

nhra doesnt say nitrous is a power adder, so 444rwtq @5600 cutting out :), otherwise 320

well this isnt NHRA :jest: once you add n2o to the game, thes numbers sky rocket.

Let's be real for a minute....how many stock displacement H/C cars have gone significantly faster than 124 MPH without even taking D/A into account?? The reality is that not many H/C stock displacement cars see better than 124 (a small percentage) and the few that have usually saw closer to zero D/A.
Tony M.

Id say 40% of the h/c cars around here that get raced regularly (I know of 5)have been 124-126 around that weight on some good days and most are your average 430 hp cars. Add 60 hp in the mix and Id hope an average day it traps 125+

All I know is that 450 on our dyno at 3600-3700 lbs traps 126-128 as weve done a few times, and Im sure some of these 480 hp cars could make 450 on ours

Not to muck up the thread here. Granny, I have seen some of the cars you speak of first hand and will say they are quick, but I think a lot has to do with where you guys are located. Even with a high DA, you guys still have better air then most of us. Combine that with a down hill track, and there is your ET's. ;) While keeping up with the thread, I have no dyno numbers, but a 3600lb car that runs 11.5's @ 121 in a M6. I'll take that over dyno numbers anyday.

PS - Ask Larry about the down hill tracks.

While keeping up with the thread, I have no dyno numbers, but a 3600lb car that runs 11.5's @ 121 in a M6. I'll take that over dyno numbers anyday.



I agree, not to be mistaken here. If the car dynoed 300 hp but ran 11.0, thats all that matters. My intention here was to see how different setups were working. So far, all these cars arent even radical setups, yet run just as hard, if not stronger, than some other more radical setups with bigger cams and high compression. Not to mention the mid range makes driving the car around daily a hell of a lot more fun :) haha

Lets be honest here. there are alot of Bs dyno numbers on this board. Tons of guys claim 450 + rwhp and can never back it up. In the last month I have raced from a roll 40mph - 140mph 2 450+ hp cars 1 from a sponsor on this board with a 395ci stroker and and 1 from a big sponsor from the corvette board. I pulled on the stroker and was dead even with the other....

Btw I have a A4 car that makes 365rwhp unlocked..... Suprise Suprise

Oh yea and ofcourse I layed both cars out big time from dead stop......

There is always a some m6 guys that only makes 400 rwhp and run 11.5 @120 at a regular track night and stock rims all around. Not at a special winter rental with extra prepand staging with there rear tires...ITs hard to explain but there are more tricks flying around these days than ever.

I think most of us know some shops always dyno much higher than others and there own pkgs always make the most power,, Real numbers or not

ok lets get back onto topic

Lets be honest here. there are alot of Bs dyno numbers on this board.

agreed 100%, esp when you ask people to post up more information and they are not willing to, or "disappear" for weeks. Most being the shady sponsors, go figure :eyes:

I agree with the above statement. We race at many different tracks, none are faster than the other. On my dyno in a auto car 450 traps 128, 420 traps 125-126 in a 3600 lb car that works right, its a pretty consistant thing.

DA pretty much evens the playing field its pretty close when you correct to zero DA

so who posted 450-454, but didnt post their results?

and how does the correction for DA work? Is there some sort of calculator for it?

I just voted in the 455+ as my engine did 455 flat ;)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/miami993c297/dynocompare.jpg

Christian

I don't know where you get this 450RWHP is supposed to trap 127 or 128 because down here in mississippi with 500-550RWHP @3600 lbs will net you 127-131MPH and 400RWHP-420RWHP will net you 115-118 in a 3600 lb car.

I don't know where you get this 450RWHP is supposed to trap 127 or 128 because down here in mississippi with 500-550RWHP @3600 lbs will net you 127-131MPH and 400RWHP-420RWHP will net you 115-118 in a 3600 lb car.

That is what I am more used to seeing here as well, and C6 Z's weigh in at 3130 or something like that with 440+RWHP and trap 125-129 being the rare occasion but I think someone on this board got that 129. So, add weight to be more like my full weight car of 3520 with a full tank and no drive I find it hard to believe with that 420RWHP that I would trap 125 or 126. I will have to see it.

Back on topic, let's see some more high horsepower/torque H/C NA #'s.

I don't know where you get this 450RWHP is supposed to trap 127 or 128 because down here in mississippi with 500-550RWHP @3600 lbs will net you 127-131MPH and 400RWHP-420RWHP will net you 115-118 in a 3600 lb car.

My exact thinking, as well.

I don't know where you get this 450RWHP is supposed to trap 127 or 128 because down here in mississippi with 500-550RWHP @3600 lbs will net you 127-131MPH and 400RWHP-420RWHP will net you 115-118 in a 3600 lb car.

I think he means to say that 450= 127-128 in HIS area. The air quality, gas, DA all effect performance and it varies widely across the US. I watched my brothers X4 cam only car trap 121 and some change but yet the car only put down 422/371(ls6 intake, typical bolt ons) which is unusual for shitty AZ conditions. How? Luckily got a decent DA, gears and a proper suspension in a car that weighs 35-3600lbs. So again, there's always a lot of different variables.

I just voted in the 455+ as my engine did 455 flat ;)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/miami993c297/dynocompare.jpg

Christian

Amazing set-up. Very well thought out.

What rear is that through?

Amazing set-up. Very well thought out.

What rear is that through?

Hi Louie83,

The drivetrain is OEM except the clutch for obvious reasons.

Stock MN12
Stock Differential
Stock tire size 295/35/18 mounted on OEM rims. (to change soon now!!!)

Thank you for the compliment...
Christian

Vengeance Racing recently made 521/464 through my 03 ZO6.Here's the link.http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=661579

Vengeance Racing recently made 521/464 through my 03 ZO6.Here's the link.http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=661579

Yeah but thats questionable IMO and others. The cylinder pressure required to make that torque, you would need to run race gas. Things just dont add up in that combo to beable to do that on a 346" motor.

Yeah but thats questionable IMO and others. The cylinder pressure required to make that torque, you would need to run race gas. Things just dont add up in that combo to beable to do that on a 346" motor.93 octane.Believe it, it's true. AFR ,ECS and ETP are all making similar numbers so where have you been?

Question the results all you want.... Thats typical... People have always questioned shops when they take things to the next level.... It has happened with Cartek, LG, Futral.... now it is our turn.... Funny thing is, we arent the only ones making these #s.... We made a whopping 15 more ftlbs than a home built combination and our #s are questioned.... LOL

The results will speak for themselves.....

Ron



Yeah but thats questionable IMO and others. The cylinder pressure required to make that torque, you would need to run race gas. Things just dont add up in that combo to beable to do that on a 346" motor.

I think he means to say that 450= 127-128 in HIS area. The air quality, gas, DA all effect performance and it varies widely across the US. I watched my brothers X4 cam only car trap 121 and some change but yet the car only put down 422/371(ls6 intake, typical bolt ons) which is unusual for shitty AZ conditions. How? Luckily got a decent DA, gears and a proper suspension in a car that weighs 35-3600lbs. So again, there's always a lot of different variables.

GrannySS has a mustang dyno and it seems to be a little on the low side to most other dyno's I've seen.

So 450 on his would be 480-490 on most dynojets.

We race at more than 1 track and more than 1 area.

my car ran within .1 from our local track in MD. to the track in Memphis :judge:

Ron@vengence I call BS until any of those 500hp monsters run mid 10's@130 :)

Thats understandable.... Ill call BS on your mid 9s in street trim until I see it in some Ga air ;)




GrannySS has a mustang dyno and it seems to be a little on the low side to most other dyno's I've seen.

So 450 on his would be 480-490 on most dynojets.

We race at more than 1 track and more than 1 area.

my car ran within .1 from our local track in MD. to the track in Memphis :judge:

Ron@vengence I call BS until any of those 500hp monsters run mid 10's@130 :)

Is memphis close enough ? Check out the video in my sig. Most Legit Street car at the PGD's :)

I make my own atmosphere buddy :devil:

Yea, I watched the video... About 50 60ft passes and one shot of the entire 1/4 ;) Most be a one shot wonder :D :D :D

Yea, I watched the video... About 50 60ft passes and one shot of the entire 1/4 ;) Most be a one shot wonder :D :D :D


:jest: Ya must be

2,500lbs dynojet rollers are much easier on cars :gtfo:

Try keeping the weather station on your dyno jet away from the bullet heater :judge:

Ron@vengence I call BS until any of those 500hp monsters run mid 10's@130 :)

How are you gonna call BS on numbers? its a dyno result, a dyno is a machine to simulate driving conditions and output the power compariable. They have provided a ligit graph with a more than impressive curve. When the car goes to the track and puts up a timeslip, then you can say what you want. Until till then you cant say anything negative about the numbers the car is putting out with the combo chosen and the tune...

Ahhh good call on the weather station!!! I will do that


Meanwhile, go take that pressurized atmosphere out of your car and see what that MOTOR runs ;)

My lil 347 is only a few tenths back from you and Im ALL MOTOR :D :D


:jest: Ya must be

2,500lbs dynojet rollers are much easier on cars :gtfo:

Try keeping the weather station on your dyno jet away from the bullet heater :judge:

How are you gonna call BS on numbers? its a dyno result, a dyno is a machine to simulate driving conditions and output the power compariable. They have provided a ligit graph with a more than impressive curve. When the car goes to the track and puts up a timeslip, then you can say what you want. Until till then you cant say anything negative about the numbers the car is putting out with the combo chosen and the tune...

Dynos are easily manipulated and some are more generous than others.

Most Dynojets have a 2500lb roller, so unless your car is 2500lbs. your not getting a true HP number to the wheels :)

This doesnt need to start a war if you believe the numbers thats great I just said I'm doubting them til I see some track times.

Ahhh good call on the weather station!!! I will do that


Meanwhile, go take that pressurized atmosphere out of your car and see what that MOTOR runs ;)

My lil 347 is only a few tenths back from you and Im ALL MOTOR :D :D

Put 800lbs back in your race car and see what it runs :jest:

How are you gonna call BS on numbers? its a dyno result, a dyno is a machine to simulate driving conditions and output the power compariable. They have provided a ligit graph with a more than impressive curve. When the car goes to the track and puts up a timeslip, then you can say what you want. Until till then you cant say anything negative about the numbers the car is putting out with the combo chosen and the tune...


How do you consider the graph legit? It produced near 390tq @ 3000rpm and still managed to pull off 520+hp @ 6500. Those two don't go together on a 346. You can throw a 240/244 cam at a 346 and make high HP all day long, but you don't get the bottom end to go with it. There isn't no secret parts here. It's ported heads, a XE-R cam, and a ported intake. Same thing that has been going on for years now, but some how, this one achieves the impossible. Best of both worlds. Stroker like tq and 500+hp figures.

... my point being, many are calling BS and until the results show at the track, we are going to continue to.

800lbs and a bottle and I will still be quicker/faster than you ;)

FWIW, All DynoJet 224x Drums weigh the same. That being said, if this Z06 made 300 stock and 450 with our package on it nobody would second guess it. We broke new barriers and people do not think it is true... Simple concept. I would be a doubter myself if I hadnt seen it with my own eyes several times now.


Put 800lbs back in your race car and see what it runs :jest:

How do you consider the graph legit? It produced near 390tq @ 3000rpm and still managed to pull off 520+hp @ 6500. Those two don't go together on a 346. You can throw a 240/244 cam at a 346 and make high HP all day long, but you don't get the bottom end to go with it. There isn't no secret parts here. It's ported heads, a XE-R cam, and a ported intake. Same thing that has been going on for years now, but some how, this one achieves the impossible. Best of both worlds. Stroker like tq and 500+hp figures.

... my point being, many are calling BS and until the results show at the track, we are going to continue to.

Just to clairfy, what exactly are you calling BS on? The dyno? The numbers? The printer for the graph? I understand the doubt with the range but come on man, have some faith...


Well Ron, i think they finally must have figured out the the graphs are hand drawn. :)

How do you consider the graph legit? It produced near 390tq @ 3000rpm and still managed to pull off 520+hp @ 6500. Those two don't go together on a 346. You can throw a 240/244 cam at a 346 and make high HP all day long, but you don't get the bottom end to go with it. There isn't no secret parts here. It's ported heads, a XE-R cam, and a ported intake. Same thing that has been going on for years now, but some how, this one achieves the impossible. Best of both worlds. Stroker like tq and 500+hp figures.

... my point being, many are calling BS and until the results show at the track, we are going to continue to.not just this one ignorant.AFR ,ETP and others are getting the same numbers. So, you're just making yourself look foolish here. :eyes:

wow, this thread started off great, everyone talking about their setups and posting dyno graphs in accordance with the title. Now it's gone completely off topic and "calling BS" on everyone's setups.

Can we get back on topic here? I'm interested in heads/cam combos that make big torque....

Sport SideHow do you consider the graph legit? How do you consider it falsified?It produced near 390tq @ 3000rpm and still managed to pull off 520+hp @ 6500.Your point? Those two don't go together on a 346.Why, because you have not seen it posted on the internet before? You can throw a 240/244 cam at a 346 and make high HP all day long, but you don't get the bottom end to go with it. Again, what is your thought process on this?There isn't no secret parts here.Isnt no secret parts here.... Are you sure ;) It's ported heads,No, actually they are TrickFlow Cylinder heads with a 13.5* Valve angle with better MID LIFT flow #s than other heads out there thus producing more power UNDER THE CURVE than your typical combination. Pair that with LG longtubes which are proven to make more torque and the result may surprise you. a XE-R cam Are you sure? Do you know the lobes/cam profile?, and a ported intake.Yea, we all port the FAST the same, no big secrets there ;) Same thing that has been going on for years now, but some how, this one achieves the impossible.Impossible because you say so or because it hasnt been done yet? I remember when 400rwhp cam only was "impossible" Best of both worlds. Stroker like tq and 500+hp figures.Hmm, most strokers I have seen tend to produce 500 ftlbs..... I guess all of those dyno results were falsified also ;)

... my point being, many are calling BS and until the results show at the track, we are going to continue to I would expect nothing less. Look at what Cartek and LG had to go through for years when they were producing some of the highest #s out there. It took people years to figure out Cartek was using a Raised runner floor in the LS6 heads to make the #s they were.... Still turned out to be legit.

It is nice to know people would rather sit around on the net and call "BS" than support the guys who are pushing the envelope. I guess if it were up to some of you, we would all have B1/T1 camshafts and make 375rwhp ......

:cheers:

I just voted in the 455+ as my engine did 455 flat ;)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/miami993c297/dynocompare.jpg

Christian
very nice set up, solid roller im assuming?

It is nice to know people would rather sit around on the net and call "BS" than support the guys who are pushing the envelope. I guess if it were up to some of you, we would all have B1/T1 camshafts and make 375rwhp

Ron, what are you talking about? Obviously I would support it if I felt it was realistic. I don't however. So now, I'm just sitting on the internet not supporting you for pushing the envelope? Whether all of my points are moot or not, going against your results doesn't make me wrong... I just don't believe it. Simple as that.

Here's another reason why, and it could actually be related back to the 'torque' part of this thread.

My main point is that this car is making 390 tq @ 3000 rpm w/ a 240 cam. What would happen if this particular car had a 220 cam in it? What sorta torque would it produce then? Upwards of 400? That sounds legit to you? Big torque is possible out of any setup. It's just to achieve this, it becomes very hard to grab that big HP number on the other end. That's my concern.

800lbs and a bottle and I will still be quicker/faster than you ;).

Prove it!

Until you've been faster than me you have'nt
UD LUZE! :devil:

FWIW, All DynoJet 224x Drums weigh the same. That being said, if this Z06 made 300 stock and 450 with our package on it nobody would second guess it. We broke new barriers and people do not think it is true... Simple concept. I would be a doubter myself if I hadnt seen it with my own eyes several times now

I know they weigh the same thats why we chose a Mustang dyno it simulates the true weight of the car.

I guess your 2,500lb roller works good for your gutted tin can race car though :turd: :eyes:

Prove it!

Until you've been faster than me you have'nt
UD LUZE! :devil:



I know they weigh the same thats why we chose a Mustang dyno it simulates the true weight of the car.

I guess your 2,500lb roller works good for your gutted tin can race car though :turd: :eyes:

Gettin touchy I see... LMFAO!!!

Gettin touchy I see... LMFAO!!!

:jest: Right


Dont you have some sick whips to build?
I mean 12 second 500hp monsters :hail:

:gtfo:

:jest: Right


Dont you have some sick whips to build?
I mean 12 second 500hp monsters :hail:

:gtfo:

Now just because we havent ran 10s, doesnt mean we are going to run 12s... Dont be a hater man, we cant all run 9s on nitrous.... O wait, I was doing that 3 years ago in a SIX SPEED STREET CAR with FULL INTERIOR and exhuast... I guess your glory isnt as "glorified" as you thought :D :drive: :chug:

I just find it funny. When I am asked questions about a setup, I answer them all. I dont get on here trying to change the subject and playing middle school games. Bottom line is if you know how cams work and what makes torque, it is hard to believe. We have asked to see cranking compression numbers, and I have seen nothing on it yet. For a cam that size to make the cyl pressure at 3k rpm for that torque, it would kill the top end. This is what everyone in the racing world fights against. Give us the info and maybe some doubts will go away. Seeing as the other thread was deleted though, I am sure there were just some questions you did not want to answer.

There are a lot of "uninformed" people on this board who believe everything they see. Then there are the people that understand motors a little more and want to know the details when they see results that are unusual in comparison to others. Like I said, give us the information we ask for and you could sell a lot more of these packages if the information is true. I honestly wish I had the money to buy the package from you and test it on my own. I have not seen any independent installs AND dynos. Repeatable is believable, and until that happens people will always doubt it.

There are a lot of "uninformed" people on this board who believe everything they see. Then there are the people that understand motors a little more and want to know the details when they see results that are unusual in comparison to others. Like I said, give us the information we ask for and you could sell a lot more of these packages if the information is true. I honestly wish I had the money to buy the package from you and test it on my own. I have not seen any independent installs AND dynos. Repeatable is believable, and until that happens people will always doubt it.


Great post!


Ron@vagrancy ...I dont care what your gutted terd ran 3 years ago.
Stop lying and post up some facts to back up these numbers.

very nice set up, solid roller im assuming?

Hi SSilverSSurfer,

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/miami993c297/dynocompare.jpg

No this is still on Hydraulic...

But not cheap...
I have the MOREL's
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/miami993c297/MorelBilletHydraulicLifters.jpg

The push rods are the Three Pieces Pro-Series Heavy Wall

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/miami993c297/ThreePiecePro-SeriesHeavyWall8.jpg

The valve springs are the FTI PS4 Valve Spring upgrade

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/miami993c297/ETP215withFTIPS4ValveSpringUpgrade.jpg

And my Rockers are the Hrland Sharp upgrade modification

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/miami993c297/ROCKERMODHARLANDreadytogo.jpg

Plus mainly the Camshaft was design by Ed Curtis with lobes that could achieve a 7400rpm, reving without any Valve Float on Hydraulic...look like the ultimate step versus the known technology about springs and steel !!!

But better will come, just a matter of time and of Industry Research...

Here is a video of how the engine in reving (high) in board, it was a 77° Florida day, I start in second, thanks it was sticky enough and we were two in the car:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYhRh7XZ8Gw

Regards
Christian

Christian,

Those are some good looking parts :D

Here in DFW we just ask for another dyno from another shop.... in our case it didnt turn out so well....... :hijack:

Here's another reason why, and it could actually be related back to the 'torque' part of this thread.

My main point is that this car is making 390 tq @ 3000 rpm w/ a 240 cam. What would happen if this particular car had a 220 cam in it? What sorta torque would it produce then? Upwards of 400? That sounds legit to you? Big torque is possible out of any setup. It's just to achieve this, it becomes very hard to grab that big HP number on the other end. That's my concern.
I should probably steer clear of this thread by a 100 yards but none the less feel the need to say something because I have probably bitten a hole in my lip keeping quiet so long.

I agree with the point Sportside is bringing up....any motor can make big POWER with the right set-up and enough RPM but TQ is mainly a function of displacement and compression....the camshaft ultimately determines where that TQ will be maximized and how long it will hang on with RPM.
Of course an engine with good heads will make more TQ (and HP) but this discussion already assumes we are looking at the results of engines equipped with the better flowing heads....take a look at my flowthread....the differences at this level in a cathedral port design is a very narrow playing field.

Im getting off track here however....understanding that TQ is limited (not HP) by mainly displacement and CR, I also find it hard to swallow that at 3000-3500 RPM's, this engine produces 30-50 more ft/lbs than other similar displacement engines with similar CR ratio's and similar sized camshafts. It simply looks like there is a 4" arm in that engine when you look at the curve. A 346 with 11ish to 1 CR and a 240+ cam is simply NOT an efficient air pump at 3000 RPM's and as such won't make enough cylinder pressure at that RPM to put up a big TQ number. A larger engine could but only based on its displacement and the fact it wouldn't be technically as "over-cammed" at the same RPM. Every big HP graph I have seen posted on this board and others (cars in the high 400's and low 500's) all make from 320-360 RWTQ at that RPM range.....exactly what you would expect a small engine with a big cam to do at that RPM. The difference between a 485 HP set-up and a 510 HP set-up was simply how well the TQ upstairs carried....thats where camshaft, headflow, and the rest of the set-up is going to make a difference. You could have a 370 CFM LS7 head on a 346 CID engine and if you have 11 ish CR with a 240+ cam its going to be a pooch at the low RPM's. The engine hasn't even begun to tap into the cylinder head at that low an RPM.....even a weaker flowing head wouldn't pose a restriction yet.

Consider that even set-up's designed for TQ would have a hard time making close to 400 RWTQ at that low an RPM. Patrick G's for example....obviously an optimized set-up....good heads...ported FAST....small cam with a tight LSA installed with advance....everything condusive to a big number early only musters 350 and 385 RWTQ at 3000 and 3500 RPM's respectfully. Look around if you think I'm BS'ing.....most every N/A 346 you see wont make big TQ at the low RPM's....its fighting the laws of physics to do so, but especially the larger cammed 346 CID builds....those are really at a disadvantage because the camshaft timing is not condusive to cylinder pressure that early in the power curve.....in fact its a detriment to cylinder pressure in those RPM's by nature of its valve timing events. Thats just the way it is....

Before this post gets as long as something J-Rod might write (sorry J.....LOL) I am going to try and wrap it up. I know some of you might just casually dismiss what I am saying as propaganda to promote my product and pick apart the results of another but that is not the case here. I take a very scientific approach to everything I do and have a pretty good handle on engine theory, cylinder head design, and things directly related to this conversation. It's what I've focused and dedicated the better part of my life to in fact (I turn 45 this year btw). As such I am analytical about all the results, mine notwithstanding. Note that on the combo I just posted big numbers with (510 RWHP) at the RPM's in question (3-3.5K) our engine mustered 350 RWTQ and considering the size of the cam (close to 240) I was pretty pleased with that all things considered. It's what I expected to see in the lower portion of the curve....and Dennis's car is extremely optimized with the same headers as well (the LG Pro). Technically a larger cammed similar combination should have actually made a little less TQ....the CR was identical with 58 cc heads. So in a nutshell, the TQ figures posted early in the curve lead me to question all the numbers....it would only be logical to feel that way. Engines aren't magic....their basically airpumps and very mathmatical if anything....thats how very good computer software can usually get you pretty close to the correct results if you know the right figures to input into the equation.

Now that everyone not taking the blue pill is already throwing tomato's (or worse) at me I will respectfully bow out of this thread. I do ask anyone with an open mind to look around at other results, big cammed or not, and take a look at the low RPM TQ typical of a 346 CID pump gas engine.....if you dont come up scratching your heads with questions here then you must have taken someone else's pill and have your blinders on. I mean no disrespect to Ron or any of the Vengeance crowd....they seem to be working hard trying to push the envelope and make a name for themselves and I can appeciate that, but I do question why they didn't find the low RPM TQ figures this aggressive combination produced a little strange as well.

Bottom line is I am probably going to get flamed no matter what, but feel better knowing what I had to say is off my chest....some more info for you guys to digest I guess. If I have some time I will look around for some of the bigger producing 346 combo's to back what I have been trying to convey in this thread. I'm sure all eyes will be on this car as it finally makes it to a dragstrip....LOL (not too much pressure for the driver right :eek2: )

Regards,
Tony M.

I should probably steer clear of this thread by a 100 yards but none the less feel the need to say something because I have probably bitten a hole in my lip keeping quiet so long.

I agree with the point Sportside is bringing up....any motor can make big POWER with the right set-up and enough RPM but TQ is mainly a function of displacement and compression....the camshaft ultimately determines where that TQ will be maximized and how long it will hang on with RPM.
Of course an engine with good heads will make more TQ (and HP) but this discussion already assumes we are looking at the results of engines equipped with the better flowing heads....take a look at my flowthread....the differences at this level in a cathedral port design is a very narrow playing field.

Im getting off track here however....understanding that TQ is limited (not HP) by mainly displacement and CR, I also find it hard to swallow that at 3000-3500 RPM's, this engine produces 30-50 more ft/lbs than other similar displacement engines with similar CR ratio's and similar sized camshafts. It simply looks like there is a 4" arm in that engine when you look at the curve. A 346 with 11ish to 1 CR and a 240+ cam is simply NOT an efficient air pump at 3000 RPM's and as such won't make enough cylinder pressure at that RPM to put up a big TQ number. A larger engine could but only based on its displacement and the fact it wouldn't be technically as "over-cammed" at the same RPM. Every big HP graph I have seen posted on this board and others (cars in the high 400's and low 500's) all make from 320-360 RWTQ at that RPM range.....exactly what you would expect a small engine with a big cam to do at that RPM. The difference between a 485 HP set-up and a 510 HP set-up was simply how well the TQ upstairs carried....thats where camshaft, headflow, and the rest of the set-up is going to make a difference. You could have a 370 CFM LS7 head on a 346 CID engine and if you have 11 ish CR with a 240+ cam its going to be a pooch at the low RPM's. The engine hasn't even begun to tap into the cylinder head at that low an RPM.....even a weaker flowing head wouldn't pose a restriction yet.

Consider that even set-up's designed for TQ would have a hard time making close to 400 RWTQ at that low an RPM. Patrick G's for example....obviously an optimized set-up....good heads...ported FAST....small cam with a tight LSA installed with advance....everything condusive to a big number early only musters 350 and 385 RWTQ at 3000 and 3500 RPM's respectfully. Look around if you think I'm BS'ing.....most every N/A 346 you see wont make big TQ at the low RPM's....its fighting the laws of physics to do so, but especially the larger cammed 346 CID builds....those are really at a disadvantage because the camshaft timing is not condusive to cylinder pressure that early in the power curve.....in fact its a detriment to cylinder pressure in those RPM's by nature of its valve timing events. Thats just the way it is....

Before this post gets as long as something J-Rod might write (sorry J.....LOL) I am going to try and wrap it up. I know some of you might just casually dismiss what I am saying as propaganda to promote my product and pick apart the results of another but that is not the case here. I take a very scientific approach to everything I do and have a pretty good handle on engine theory, cylinder head design, and things directly related to this conversation. It's what I've focused and dedicated the better part of my life to in fact (I turn 45 this year btw). As such I am analytical about all the results, mine notwithstanding. Note that on the combo I just posted big numbers with (510 RWHP) at the RPM's in question (3-3.5K) our engine mustered 350 RWTQ and considering the size of the cam (close to 240) I was pretty pleased with that all things considered. It's what I expected to see in the lower portion of the curve....and Dennis's car is extremely optimized with the same headers as well (the LG Pro). Technically a larger cammed similar combination should have actually made a little less TQ....the CR was identical with 58 cc heads.

Now that everyone not taking the blue pill is already throwing tomato's (or worse) at me I will respectfully bow out of this thread. I do ask anyone with an open mind to look around at other results, big cammed or not, and take a look at the low RPM TQ typical of a 346 CID pump gas engine.....if you dont come up scratching your heads with questions here then you must have taken someone else's pill and have your blinders on. I mean no disrespect to Ron or any of the Vengeance crowd....they seem to be working hard trying to push the envelope and make a name for themselves and I can appeciate that, but I do question why they didn't find the low RPM TQ figures this aggressive combination produced a little strange as well.

Bottom line is I am probably going to get flamed no matter what, but feel better knowing what I had to say is off my chest....some more info for you guys to digest I guess. If I have some time I will look around for some of the bigger producing 346 combo's to back what I have been trying to convey in this thread. I'm sure all eyes will be on this car as it finally makes it to a dragstrip....LOL (not too much pressure for the driver right :eek2: )

Regards,
Tony M.

10/4, loud and clear, copy that...
:hail:
Christian

Damn!

That pretty much sums it up.

Everyone is thinking it and only a few have the balls to say it.

:hail: Tony

The matrix is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work, when you go to church, when you pay your taxes. When you read the crazy dyno numbers on LS1tech.It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes, to blind you from the truth. :jest:

I'll gladly pull my car apart, put the heads/rockers and cam you want into it and give independent results. When things are done, I'll pull it all back off and send everything back to you. I have all the supporting parts to go along with the build already as I just got done doing a H/C build on it. This way it might shed some light for some of us wondering how it is possible.

There was a post on their L92 results. I guess now it's all in question. :eyes:

There was a post on their L92 results. I guess now it's all in question. :eyes:

Oh, S**T, ya dunn did it now!!

Hi SSilverSSurfer,


No this is still on Hydraulic...

But not cheap...

The push rods are the Three Pieces Pro-Series Heavy Wall


The valve springs are the FTI PS4 Valve Spring upgrade

And my Rockers are the Hrland Sharp upgrade modification


Plus mainly the Camshaft was design by Ed Curtis with lobes that could achieve a 7400rpm, reving without any Valve Float on Hydraulic...look like the ultimate step versus the known technology about springs and steel !!!

But better will come, just a matter of time and of Industry Research...

Here is a video of how the engine in reving (high) in board, it was a 77° Florida day, I start in second, thanks it was sticky enough and we were two in the car:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYhRh7XZ8Gw

Regards
Christian

appreciate you getting that in detail. thats is very nice, well thought out set up. how driveability with that. sorry to get this off topic

appreciate you getting that in detail. thats is very nice, well thought out set up. how driveability with that. sorry to get this off topic

Hi SSilverSSurfer,

Yes my set-up is pretty picky and I tried to make the final assembly in the same spirit than the "famous Tony MAMO recipe" from two years ago... I just choose at some point different components all well balanced together minus an EWP and more flowing catback.

I opened a thread on my engine in this section, just click on the link below:

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=648228

You can check the video about drivability directly here if you don't go to my thread (informative I guess):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PL7h3QvOUFs

Christian

You can check the video about drivability directly here if you don't go to my thread (informative I guess):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PL7h3QvOUFs

Christian

Cool video, I guess it drives well then huh? lol

sounds wicked :devil:

Tony Mamo,

do you think at this point in time it is almost necessary to have multiple dyno's prior to posting results on this board. We had a case in DFW where a sponsor posted some amazing results that was later proved to be inflated or operator error. It this is the case, one would assume that the same will be expected from AFR as well in the future.

Not trying to stab at anyones integrity.... but I think that if someone comes up with an unbelievable result, is it not prudent to ask for a second confirming dyno (think of it as a medical second opinion :judge: )???

Mike

I dont think it is a question of having the same shop, install the same setup, putting the car on another dyno, it is waiting to see the product in customers hands and seeing what they do with it, IMO.

Tony Mamo,

do you think at this point in time it is almost necessary to have multiple dyno's prior to posting results on this board. We had a case in DFW where a sponsor posted some amazing results that was later proved to be inflated or operator error. It this is the case, one would assume that the same will be expected from AFR as well in the future.

Not trying to stab at anyones integrity.... but I think that if someone comes up with an unbelievable result, is it not prudent to ask for a second confirming dyno (think of it as a medical second opinion :judge: )???

MikeI don't know if that's necessary if the dyno is known for giving accurate numbers. Honestly, the chassis dyno is primarily a tuning mechanism and the real valuable info is the delta it gives you of the before/after modifications.

But alas, many companies use their dynos as marketing tools...and if higher numbers generate greater sales, then there's going to be a major push to put out the highest dyno numbers possible...it's just the nature of the beast.

Cool video, I guess it drives well then huh? lol

sounds wicked :devil:

It drives very well in any circonstances, and I guess you know very well my tune...

Christian :)

I don't know if that's necessary if the dyno is known for giving accurate numbers. Honestly, the chassis dyno is primarily a tuning mechanism and the real valuable info is the delta it gives you of the before/after modifications.

But alas, many companies use their dynos as marketing tools...and if higher numbers generate greater sales, then there's going to be a major push to put out the highest dyno numbers possible...it's just the nature of the beast.


and as a great engine builder once said, "more and more dynos will be inflated with big giant fans, no air filters, open TB's, open exhausts, no belts, and more and more uncalibrated dynos....... just to inflate dyno numbers for marketing purposes"

this was paraphrased of course. :)

and as a great engine builder once said, "more and more dynos will be inflated with big giant fans, no air filters, open TB's, open exhausts, no belts, and more and more uncalibrated dynos....... just to inflate dyno numbers for marketing purposes"

this was paraphrased of course. :)

this is true. Like Patrick said a dyno is good to see changes. I went from 424/411 to 473/441 with milled heads, longer pushrods and ported fast, for a gain of 49/30 is enough to make me happy lol

and I guess you know very well my tune...

Christian :)

this is true :D

Plus mainly the Camshaft was design by Ed Curtis with lobes that could achieve a 7400rpm, reving without any Valve Float on Hydraulic...look like the ultimate step versus the known technology about springs and steel !!!

But better will come, just a matter of time and of Industry Research...



Kind of the poin me and Tony were trying to make... we are turning hyd roller stuff to 8200 rpm. Given a set cubic inches and a "pretty" set achievable VE.. hp you can make by makig that VE higher up in the rpm band. Now how you make tons more torque ar 2800 rpm and more hp than anyone else at 6900, I have yet to figure out how to do that myself, unless there is a VTEC button on the our cams somewhere that Im missing. :jest:

All joking aside, those are some serious numbers. I hope you guys realize those numbers dont add up in peoples mind unless unless the car traps 136 at 3200 lbs easily. My cam only car made 410 and went an EASY 122 at 3500 lbs, take away 100 lbs and add 50 hp and a 3400 lb car here went 129, take away anoher 200 lbs and 65-70 hp and id think 7 or so more would be attainable. At least 133, pretty stout for sure :drive:

Hi Ron, Hows it goin over there on that side of the fence? Being on the doubted side can take its toll. Hang in there, Time will tell as your product get out there in the hands of more and more people. My customers make more power with my products than we do in some cases.

Im skeptical, but Im skeptical of everything, It makes us work harder :) No wait, Im not skeptical, its the headers :D

Who has dynoed a car that has made VERY good rwtq number on a djet for example chassis dyno, where the same motor has been on an engine dyno and true VE numbers were recorded?

For years 395-405 ft lbs was about the max anyone put down, some just held on to it longer than others. Guys are making 16% better VE now? thats just silly!:)

GrannySShifting

Is memphis close enough ? Check out the video in my sig. Most Legit Street car at the PGD's :)

I make my own atmosphere buddy :devil:

So if your car is that quick whats that silver SS with black stripes running that i see in a couple of your clips.. Are they a member on here?

So if your car is that quick whats that silver SS with black stripes running that i see in a couple of your clips.. Are they a member on here?

He is cant remember his name he went 9.5 also .. his is a 408 on spray

OK, everyone is talking about how great the torque is on TFS heads, but lets look at a stellar hp/torque number outside of Vengeance's shop. This is Jeffstar's dyno. Notice the shape of the power and torque curve. Almost identical to the Vengeance dyno numbers (running very similar cams and compression), but his low rpm numbers are right in line with what other 346s are putting out.
http://www.jeffstar.org/images/Z28/Sledge%20Hammer%202/Dyno/dyno_vsstock.gif

To add even more to the conversation, let's look at my setup. It was purpose built with low and mid range torque in mind (short duration, narrow LSA, high compression). I have so much low speed torque that my cranking compression is 250 psi!! :eek: Notice how strong my low and mid-range torque is (355 tq at 3,000 rpm), but it comes nowhere close to 390 tq at 3000 of the Vengeance setups.
http://guerragroup.com/image001.gif

Here's a couple more graph comparisons. This 346 LS1 is has 58cc AFR 205 heads, LG long tubes, cats, high 230s/low 240s cam, port FAST yada yada:
http://www.lifeinwidescreen.com/siihp/Dennis%20Dyno%20Gragh.JPG

Compared to a 346 with comparable compression, cam, headers (no cats):
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k176/VengeanceRacing/scan0001-2.jpg
Again, the motors make similar peak power and torque, but look at the torque difference at 3500 rpm. Vengeance is on to something. :hail:

While we are posting graphs I will add a few to the mix... Granted, all of these graphs are from our dyno, but lets look at them for comparison sake....


This first one is our latest Heads/cam pckage that made 521 Vs a recent Z06 that got the same package. The difference in combinations is the 521rwhp car has more compression( 58cc Vs 61cc),a Spec lightweight clutch and flywheel/Mezierre electric waterpump, and Bullit catback Vs the other car having a stock waterpump/Heavyass Textralia clutch kit and a (I believe) Borla Catback.
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k176/VengeanceRacing/BradVSJimmy.jpg

I, as well as anyone else can see the torque difference @ 3200rpm.... Could this be the lighter driveline, LG Headers,tuning, added compression, or hell the way we hit the gas/sample button on the dyno... Any LEGIT explanation is welcome. .....



This next graph is the Z06 that is making 521 rwhp... There are 3 pulls to show.. The first one is the first pull the car made with the package installed. Pull #8 is after all of the tuning has been completed and the vehicle had a 10 minute cool down. Pull #9 (521/464) is with stock Z06 wheels/tires and a 10 minute cool down also. This pull was made the following morning. We borrowed a set of OEM Z06 wheels/tires to replace the heavy Repro wheels that the customer had. This was mainly done to make the comparison to our other Z06 a lil more equal, as he runs OEM Z06 wheels as well.

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k176/VengeanceRacing/JimmyHunter3pulls.jpg


The following graph is a comparison of our TrickFlow headed Fbody Vs this particular Z06. This F body has our VRX1 239/242 Vs the 240/244 in the Vette....

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k176/VengeanceRacing/SSVSSZ06.jpg

good graphs and comparison there, I would like it if I could make that torque at 3k rpm, maybe some will come back after the exo skel goes in.

Looking at the overlay, I don't the the 521 car is actually making but about 10 more flywheel hp, if that. The biggest reason for the higher torque numbers is the lowerweight of the flywheel, clutch, etc. What wheels did each one have on, Ron?

Would haved loved see this on an engine dyno, instead of a chassis.

My $.02

Let's be real for a minute....how many stock displacement H/C cars have gone significantly faster than 124 MPH without even taking D/A into account?? The reality is that not many H/C stock displacement cars see better than 124 (a small percentage) and the few that have usually saw closer to zero D/A....and some of them quite a bit below sea level. It's ALL about the D/A. The former package in my car made excellent power all things considered, did so on a half a dozen different dyno's, and did lay down a respectable MPH at the track.

If I were to have run my car a little bit closer to sea level it would have been banging right on the 126 mark (probably 125 and alot of change). If I had the opportunity to run it at 1000 feet below I would have easily cleared 127 MPH....now everything seems right but the reality is nothing has changed.

The numbers are right where they should be for that weight and power output...many a sliderule and a computer program would back me on that.

A new C6 Z06 with less weight, a 427 cubic inch engine, and more average power (or close to the same) goes typically 125 MPH....once again, about right all things considered.

Tony M.
I've seen 127+mph in a full weight (+ rollbar) cam only Z06. I think my rwtq was about 389 at that time.

I've seen 127+mph in a full weight (+ rollbar) cam only Z06. I think my rwtq was about 389 at that time.

What was your DA though? That is an important part to compare numbers. You say full weight like its a lot :D (wish my car was close to a Z's weight :()

My car is the 505 rwhp car it had HEAVY 18x10.5 Chrome Reproduction Z06 wheels on it.

My car is ready for the track sunday. Yesterday I changed out the clutch fluid and put the skinny's and slicks on. I'm crossing my fingers for a 6.9xx @ 100 +. This is the first time I've really run this car besides 2 passes when it was bone stock.

Brad,

forgot you had chromies.... damn.... Good call on that one... Hey, do you happen to have the graph from the shop in ALABAMA where you made more power than you did here at Vengeance? I think the results from over 200 miles away might say something about your car!!!!

Goodluck Sunday man.. We are ALL counting on you :)

I do have the graph right here in front of me. But the wife is out of town with the girls and has the digital camera.

can you post your track results in this thread as well, I am interested to see how it does :)

Sure will! You guys wish me luck!!

cool man, have fun and good luck!

Damn. I still remember fords crate 385HP/350TQ 351W.

It was not the best deal, but a pretty good one. Back then on the ford side we where happy to have 300rwhp@5500 out of 302 cubic inches and if you had about 340rwhp for a 351W it was considered pretty good.

But 520rwhp/460rwtq out of 346 cubic inches, and 500rwhp being made by 6200 RPM is really showing how much technology has come. Consider this. TQ at every point on the curve is greater than the T1/B1 camshaft days.

The bar on the 402-427 is still 500rwhp for the most part, with a "good" one making about 530-550rwhp.

The new 346

800lbs and a bottle and I will still be quicker/faster than you ;)

FWIW, All DynoJet 224x Drums weigh the same. That being said, if this Z06 made 300 stock and 450 with our package on it nobody would second guess it. We broke new barriers and people do not think it is true... Simple concept. I would be a doubter myself if I hadnt seen it with my own eyes several times now.
BS! If its easy why has not 1 of your cars ran a legit number. we are not fools here. This graph is straight from a 400" motor or your dyno lies! :eyes:

Sport SideHow do you consider the graph legit? How do you consider it falsified?It produced near 390tq @ 3000rpm and still managed to pull off 520+hp @ 6500.Your point? Those two don't go together on a 346.Why, because you have not seen it posted on the internet before? You can throw a 240/244 cam at a 346 and make high HP all day long, but you don't get the bottom end to go with it. Again, what is your thought process on this?There isn't no secret parts here.Isnt no secret parts here.... Are you sure ;) It's ported heads,No, actually they are TrickFlow Cylinder heads with a 13.5* Valve angle with better MID LIFT flow #s than other heads out there thus producing more power UNDER THE CURVE than your typical combination. Pair that with LG longtubes which are proven to make more torque and the result may surprise you. a XE-R cam Are you sure? Do you know the lobes/cam profile?, and a ported intake.Yea, we all port the FAST the same, no big secrets there ;) Same thing that has been going on for years now, but some how, this one achieves the impossible.Impossible because you say so or because it hasnt been done yet? I remember when 400rwhp cam only was "impossible" Best of both worlds. Stroker like tq and 500+hp figures.Hmm, most strokers I have seen tend to produce 500 ftlbs..... I guess all of those dyno results were falsified also ;)

... my point being, many are calling BS and until the results show at the track, we are going to continue to I would expect nothing less. Look at what Cartek and LG had to go through for years when they were producing some of the highest #s out there. It took people years to figure out Cartek was using a Raised runner floor in the LS6 heads to make the #s they were.... Still turned out to be legit.

It is nice to know people would rather sit around on the net and call "BS" than support the guys who are pushing the envelope. I guess if it were up to some of you, we would all have B1/T1 camshafts and make 375rwhp ......

:cheers:


I would lean mor towards math and science telling me these numbers are false! :)

Damn!

That pretty much sums it up.

Everyone is thinking it and only a few have the balls to say it.

:hail: Tony

The matrix is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work, when you go to church, when you pay your taxes. When you read the crazy dyno numbers on LS1tech.It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes, to blind you from the truth. :jest:


:eek2: :)

BS! If its easy why has not 1 of your cars ran a legit number. we are not fools here. This graph is straight from a 400" motor or your dyno lies! :eyes:

There are only 3 packages out there making this kind of power that we have built.... Or can you not read that part?? Also, down here in Ga all tracks have been closed up until a week or so ago... Brad JUST posted he is going to the local 1/8 mile track this weekend.... You GB children really need to give it a rest.....

There are only 3 packages out there making this kind of power that we have built.... Or can you not rear that part?? Also, down here in Ga all tracks have been closed up until a week or so ago... Brad JUST posted he is going to the local 1/8 mile track this weekend.... You GB children really need to give it a rest.....


Rear what part? :)

You lying Sponsors need to give it a rest. If you want i can go to the shop and print out any motor you want making whatever power you want by messing with the config file for the dyno. We have had a problem with another local shop doing just this. hell the mustang dyno out of the box had my brothers 226 cam with a ls6 intake making 430 hp threw an unlocked auto until we recalibrate it correctly.

the probelm is 90% of the sponsors here are awsome stand up guys and actually help by posting and helping guys(can't say the same for some of the "old school" parts manufacturers) but the nonsense from other sponsors drives them away.

Ron i don't care what kind of cam super logic you have. the internal combustion engine is still just an air pump and unless the dyno's calibration is off there is no way to put up those numbers on both ends. I will say this we used to use a dynojet and sometimes it would cut the run off down low and we asked the tech why and he said if you snap the wheels the dyno will adjust and cut that off the graph. maybe yours does not have that function. or maybe it has more than 346" 's :gtfo:

You lying Sponsors need to give it a rest.

LMFAO... Since there isnt enough room for both of us to be immature bitches on here, Ill take the high road and leave that comment alone ;)

Actually drag strips in Georgia have been open for several weeks. Have you considered having your dyno checked and recalabrated? :|

LMFAO... Since there isnt enough room for both of us to be immature bitches on here, Ill take the high road and leave that comment alone ;)


LMFAO .... leaving it alone would mean you wouldnt post some gay shit like that. Looked more like the low road to getting the last word in to me. :eyes: :judge:


UD LUZE !

. Have you considered having your dyno checked and recalabrated? :|


Hahaha ..... just struck me as funny :jest:

Well dragstrips in Huntsville, AL haven't been open til this weekend http://www.huntsvilledragway.com/schedule.html

I'm going sunday .. I will post results ASAP!

BS! If its easy why has not 1 of your cars ran a legit number. we are not fools here. This graph is straight from a 400" motor or your dyno lies! :eyes:Damn ,shitzu or whatever your name is,who riled your feathers?take it easy man,it's just a little ole' 346ci causing all this fuss.

LMFAO... Since there isnt enough room for both of us to be immature bitches on here, Ill take the high road and leave that comment alone ;)

It is a shame that you can't go forward in this industry without everyone standing up and calling you a liar.

Ron, I think you should post up some of the graphs that you have of the "budget" LS6 castings that had the rocker pads break off making 420 RWHP on the same dyno, or some of our 5.3 heads that make 440 RWHP and have all over the country. The packages these guys are putting together are real, and if you were wise you would not call BS on them until you had SOME kind of proof. Mike from Vengeance just told me this week that a year ago if someone walked in their shop and asked for a 500 RWHP package he would tell them that it can't be done, and that statement was coming from someone who has literally installed HUNDREDS of head/cam packages and tested every head known to man.

I talked to the guys at East Coast Supercharging, the first set of TFS heads they tested made over 500 RWHP and more torque then they had ever seen. THEY ALSO SAID THE MOST THEY HAD EVER GOT FROM ANY OTHER LS HEAD IS 48X. They are some of the best guys in the industry and they have a stellar reputation on the Corvette Forum, and don't even try to sell to F-Body guys...wonder why...

The guys at Vette Doctors tested a set on a Z06 with a stock Z06 intake (CrazeeZ06) and it made 498 RWHP, they just did the exact same package with a different head and it made 20 RWHP LESS POWER.

There is far more going on with the TFS head then simple flow numbers on a flowbench, and if some of these testimonies don't prove it, then you have blinders on.

Im getting off track here however....understanding that TQ is limited (not HP) by mainly displacement and CR, I also find it hard to swallow that at 3000-3500 RPM's, this engine produces 30-50 more ft/lbs than other similar displacement engines with similar CR ratio's and similar sized camshafts. It simply looks like there is a 4" arm in that engine when you look at the curve.

Regards,
Tony M.

I would also like to bring up a dyno graph of our 5.3 heads vs a set of our hand finished LS6 heads that THESE GUYS AT VENGEANCE DID IN 2004 WHEN THEY WORKED AT SOMEONE ELSE'S SHOP! The graphs are both of 5.7 engines with LS6 intakes, the biggest difference IS JUST THE HEADS. The lower graph of the 5.3 heads ran VERY low 11's at 121 MPH in a full weight Camaro, so the numbers are REAL.

Did we learn something back then....YES. The problem is simply lack of experience with MANY different cylinder heads. These guys were testing all kinds of stuff for us WAY back then, and we ALL learned something. Am I going to tell all? Not a chance...is Vengeance going to tell all...not a chance. It's called competitive advantage, and it is what keeps this industry going....carry on...

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h290/Brian_Tooley/2.jpg

Ah Ha One of my old graphs. Now Brain where in the hell did you drag that up. Yeah we have tested tons of stuff and YES we do not reveal all of it and why would we. We do keep some things to ourselves. Bottom line in the next few months I am sure we will build a few more all out cars and we are also sending complete part setups all over the country for people on their car. IMO the car we did the other day that made 480RWHP AUTO stock bottom end with 2.5 TFK TEA head (Guess??? what THAT IS) BRAIN T better BE QUIET!!! :) Now that was the most impressive thing we have built in a long time in my mind. Anyway I will now sit back and eat some more popcorn.



I would also like to bring up a dyno graph of our 5.3 heads vs a set of our hand finished LS6 heads that THESE GUYS AT VENGEANCE DID IN 2004 WHEN THEY WORKED AT SOMEONE ELSE'S SHOP! The graphs are both of 5.7 engines with LS6 intakes, the biggest difference IS JUST THE HEADS. The lower graph of the 5.3 heads ran VERY low 11's at 121 MPH in a full weight Camaro, so the numbers are REAL.

Did we learn something back then....YES. The problem is simply lack of experience with MANY different cylinder heads. These guys were testing all kinds of stuff for us WAY back then, and we ALL learned something. Am I going to tell all? Not a chance...is Vengeance going to tell all...not a chance. It's called competitive advantage, and it is what keeps this industry going....carry on...

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h290/Brian_Tooley/2.jpg

I wouldnt dare call BS on anyone here but some track times from these 500+ cars would be nice. Shit I am still waiting for some track times from all the 470+ hp dyno from another big name brand head..... Seems like most of the fast guys still run ported stock castings. Whats up with that.

IMO the car we did the other day that made 480RWHP AUTO stock bottom end with 2.5 TFK TEA head (Guess??? what THAT IS) BRAIN T better BE QUIET!!! :) Now that was the most impressive thing we have built in a long time in my mind. Anyway I will now sit back and eat some more popcorn.

Damn, who in the world was this??? :) I'll bet that one is gonna run the number.

The lower graph of the 5.3 heads ran VERY low 11's at 121 MPH in a full weight Camaro, so the numbers are REAL.

Ron, I think you should post up some of the graphs that you have of the "budget" LS6 castings that had the rocker pads break off making 420 RWHP on the same dyno, or some of our 5.3 heads that make 440 RWHP and have all over the country.

True enough. I was one of those TEA 5.3L 1.5 heads(THREE YEARS OLD)/(small)cam guys. 346" motor did 460/424. 11:1 CR. 400rwtq @ 3500, and was still making 400rwtq at 6500.... through an M6, steel DS, 12 bolt/4.56's on a 28" slick.

No BS.

How do I know? Car was dyno'd at threee different shops. DynoLab in Marrietta, GMMG, and the infamous Vengeance dyno. Car made within 5rwhp on ALL THREE drums.

Car went 11.44@124 at 3850 lbs. in ATL. Not too shabby for a fat STREET car w/a little itty bitty 228/230 cam. Wish I could get this graph scanned.... real fat curve....very pretty. Maybe Ron can dig it up and post it-(RunFile_004.drf-2/13/06 for reference)

It's ok though..... even though the numbers are fake and they are liars. http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=88394&stc=1
With that said, I'm stoked about my Vengeance 415" L92/TFS build in progress right now http://www.importatlanta.com/forums/images/smilies/super.gif

TRACK numbers coming SOON http://www.importatlanta.com/forums/images/smilies/bump.gif

Damn, who in the world was this??? :) I'll bet that one is gonna run the number.


God forbid we post that up. Don't worry that guy is nothing but a 3000lbs race car. Let us see what it runs but that will be in the DRAG RACING section not the dyno section. I am betting 10.3-10.5 but who knows.

Okay back to the popcorn :chug:

It is a shame that you can't go forward in this industry without everyone standing up and calling you a liar.

Ron, I think you should post up some of the graphs that you have of the "budget" LS6 castings that had the rocker pads break off making 420 RWHP on the same dyno, or some of our 5.3 heads that make 440 RWHP and have all over the country. The packages these guys are putting together are real, and if you were wise you would not call BS on them until you had SOME kind of proof.


I believe that is a BS thing to say. :eyes: Brian,why is it you always have to attack others to try and make your products look better?After years of reading the post from you,Ron and Mike,I don't believe a damn thing that is posted here.All of a sudden, Vengence comes out with this magic cam (240-244 .605 - .612 112+4 that has bad P/V ,but was probably never checked),magically ported Fast intake,and the ringer TFS heads and posted these made up on the keyboard dyno results.Hey Ron, 3 years ago called ,they want their XRE lobes back .Seriously Ron,who do expect will believe you can pick up 40 rwhp by adding 2 degrees of duration on each side.If 500+ rwhp setups were this common it would have already been available from more knowledgable R&D shop.

I believe that is a BS thing to say. :eyes: Brian,why is it you always have to attack others to try and make your products look better?After years of reading the post from you,Ron and Mike,I don't believe a damn thing that is posted here.All of a sudden, Vengence comes out with this magic cam (240-244 .605 - .612 112+4 that has bad P/V ,but was probably never checked),magically ported Fast intake,and the ringer TFS heads and posted these made up on the keyboard dyno results.Hey Ron, 3 years ago called ,they want their XRE lobes back .Seriously Ron,who do expect will believe you can pick up 40 rwhp by adding 2 degrees of duration on each side.If 500+ rwhp setups were this common it would have already been available from more knowledgable R&D shop.

Where do you get 40rwhp?

So.... Tony Mamo gets 510/442 with less head/cam( http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=660917 ) and everyone's sucking his left nut.... (no offense Tony... keep up the great work! :) )

VRD ups it by a lousey 11rwhp/19rwtq, and it's utter and complete BS? Yeah.... I can see that :eyes:

More "knowledgable" R&D shop? :zzz:

As smart as you guys are, I'm suprised you haven't done it yet :cry:

You guys should be on TV :)

Where do you get 40rwhp?

So.... Tony Mamo gets 510/442 with less head/cam( http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=660917 ) and everyone's sucking his left nut.... (no offense Tony... keep up the great work! :) )

VRD ups it by a lousey 11rwhp/19rwtq, and it's utter and complete BS? Yeah.... I can see that :eyes:

More "knowledgable" R&D shop? :zzz:

As smart as you guys are, I'm suprised you haven't done it yet :cry:

You guys should be on TV :)


I don't believe Tony M thread either. I think both of them are marketing their products all little on the make believe side of things. This reminds me of the fantasy land threads from LG and cartek from a few years ago.

That's kewl. I can respect your opinion. It's just that. An opinion :)

I believe that is a BS thing to say. :eyes: Brian,why is it you always have to attack others to try and make your products look better?After years of reading the post from you,Ron and Mike,I don't believe a damn thing that is posted here.All of a sudden, Vengence comes out with this magic cam (240-244 .605 - .612 112+4 that has bad P/V ,but was probably never checked),magically ported Fast intake,and the ringer TFS heads and posted these made up on the keyboard dyno results.Hey Ron, 3 years ago called ,they want their XRE lobes back .Seriously Ron,who do expect will believe you can pick up 40 rwhp by adding 2 degrees of duration on each side.If 500+ rwhp setups were this common it would have already been available from more knowledgable R&D shop.hey pooterz28,good guess on that lift but no cigar! :)

The TFS heads have made power on other dynos from other shops and from home-builders. So, I think it's legit that it's a good head.

Further, AFR heads have made good power for a number of years now with a number of shops/individuals building up AFR-headed cars.

ET heads have had some valvefloat problems, but there are plenty of big number cars out there built by shops and individuals.

And that's the key - if individuals can build the combo then take it for a dyno tune somewhere and make 90% of the shops, then you have a good head.

As far as making that kind of torque, I think a wide LSA to hold the power uptop and a very high compression ratio to boost the low-end can make something pretty similar.

An example, a 240/244 114+1 camshaft with a 50-degree ramp rate (generic) from .006" to .050" could run with 12.75:1 CR giving a DCR of 8.95:1 DCR. Can you run that on pump gas? Yep, I do in Florida heat with a 383... gotta have very efficient double-quench heads and one helluva tune + cooling system.

What does that give you? A shitload of power everywhere and a cam that would power well into the high RPMs and act as a very good intake crutch for the FAST LSX. Moreover, it would give you power even down low at 3k RPM. Would it give 400rwtq? I don't know, with a small enough runner and the right exhaust it might.

I know Patrick's combo has been brought up, but he has short Kooks headers and the AFR 225s. Neither one of those contribute to record breaking low-end power on a 346. Give him LG Pro headers or QTP HVMC and some 205s that flow past .650" and you'll see close to 400rwtq with considerably less DCR.

Am I skeptical? Yes, to a degree. But, I'd like to see the Vindicator cam in a 402 with some TFS 225 heads to see if a 550/520 number could be hit (with good street manners and less CR than I was talking about earlier). I'd rather have that than an L76/L92 combo.

Do you think that the roughly equal length kooks are that much of a handicap over the 31-40" LGs? I'd imagine that the equal length header would perform better because each cylinder is tuned to the same RPM while the other side is all over the place... some tuned high rpm, some tuned low rpm.
Phil

I believe that is a BS thing to say. :eyes: Brian,why is it you always have to attack others to try and make your products look better?After years of reading the post from you,Ron and Mike,I don't believe a damn thing that is posted here.All of a sudden, Vengence comes out with this magic cam (240-244 .605 - .612 112+4 that has bad P/V ,but was probably never checked),magically ported Fast intake,and the ringer TFS heads and posted these made up on the keyboard dyno results.Hey Ron, 3 years ago called ,they want their XRE lobes back .Seriously Ron,who do expect will believe you can pick up 40 rwhp by adding 2 degrees of duration on each side.If 500+ rwhp setups were this common it would have already been available from more knowledgable R&D shop.

More knowledgable R&D shop? You don't know these guys, you don't know who they are, you don't know their background, you don't know squat about them, but yet you think you are a authority on what they know? I brought up the budget LS6 heads because they have made 420 RWHP on numerous dyno's, as the have on the Vengeance dyno. I brought up our 5.3 heads because they average 440 RWHP on numerous dyno's, and have made upwards of 460 RWHP WITH AN LS6 INTAKE. So then take that combo from 3-4 years ago, add a Fast 90/90, more compression, a much bigger cam (that's back when we thought a 228/230 was a big cam), and now a trick new head with rolled over valve angles, wicked details in the design, and flows 20+ cfm more air from .300"-.600", TOP NOTCH TUNING (which most people overlook) and you have yourself a recipe for a 500 RHWP package.

You do understand an individual named "Jeffstar" installed these heads in his garage, bought a cam from ECS, tuned it himself and made 498 RWHP don't you? Are you going to go to him and call BS on him also? Are you going to call BS on ECS and Vette Doctors also? Vengeance was the first shop to buy multiple set of these heads so they have a head start on the other "top shops", a lot of other "top shops" have not even tested a set.

BTW, there are no "ringer" TFS heads, the entire intake port and chamber are completely untouched by human hands, if you so much as take a sand roll to them they will flow less air and make less power, so much for your "ringer" idea.

I still don't think you read my first post above, if top shops like ECS has made over 500 RWHP FOR THE FIRST TIME ON A STOCK SHORTBLOCK WITH TFS HEADS, then doesn't that account for something? Don't you think they have tested every head known to man?

The Vette Doctors made 498 RWHP WITH AN LS6 INTAKE, and have never had a stock shortblock car come close to making 500 RHWP with ANY HEAD?

Like I keep saying, there is far more going on with this head then what you may think. Every batch that comes through gets tweaked just a little more, and I think that is what contibutes to the power that all of these other TOP SHOPS are seeing.

Am I skeptical? Yes, to a degree. But, I'd like to see the Vindicator cam in a 402 with some TFS 225 heads to see if a 550/520 number could be hit (with good street manners and less CR than I was talking about earlier). I'd rather have that than an L76/L92 combo.

Stand by :)

Every batch that comes through gets tweaked just a little more, and I think that is what contibutes to the power that all of these other TOP SHOPS are seeing.That's an interesting comment Brian. Can you explain more? Are you saying that once the head comes off the CNC machines, your staff goes in and does a little fine tuning or romancing to the valve job and ports? Or is does this mean that every head gets a little more ongoing R&D? Your comment caught my eye and is perhaps one of the big reasons why TFS heads are punching the big numbers. Please elaborate if you can.

Do you think that the roughly equal length kooks are that much of a handicap over the 31-40" LGs? I'd imagine that the equal length header would perform better because each cylinder is tuned to the same RPM while the other side is all over the place... some tuned high rpm, some tuned low rpm.
Phil

On all of our other heads that we used to do, we saw the Kooks make as good or better power than the LG's. The exhaust port on this new TFS head is a bigger departure from any LS head we have done in the past. Casey from SAM told us what they had found, we tried it, and it seemed to work. We had never tested it with the LG headers and assumed this exhaust port with its 1.575" exhaust valve would act like all of our other heads. The only time we had seen the LG headers perform better was with an AFR head that has a 1.60" exhaust valve, which we feel is too big for a 5.7 engine N/A. So it seems the TFS head may perform better with the LG header, and the only way to know for sure is to test it back to back, like we have seen other shops do for us. What header are you running Phil?

More knowledgable R&D shop? You don't know these guys, you don't know who they are, you don't know their background, you don't know squat about them, but yet you think you are a authority on what they know?

THAT is a fact. The "new" kids on the block aren't so new, and current/future product will show the results to be no fluke. No pixie dust here-

That's an interesting comment Brian. Can you explain more? Are you saying that once the head comes off the CNC machines, your staff goes in and does a little fine tuning or romancing to the valve job and ports? Or is does this mean that every head gets a little more ongoing R&D? Your comment caught my eye and is perhaps one of the big reasons why TFS heads are punching the big numbers. Please elaborate if you can.

The more I explain, the more I educate my competition. The tweaks are all done with the CNC programming, not by hand, the CNC will do things for us that we can not do by hand.

We have tweaked the valve job to death, and it did change from the first few sets of TFS heads that were shipped, ala John Norris...sorry John.

I believe that is a BS thing to say. :eyes: Brian,why is it you always have to attack others to try and make your products look better?After years of reading the post from you,Ron and Mike,I don't believe a damn thing that is posted here.All of a sudden, Vengence comes out with this magic cam (240-244 .605 - .612 112+4 that has bad P/V ,but was probably never checked),magically ported Fast intake,and the ringer TFS heads and posted these made up on the keyboard dyno results.Hey Ron, 3 years ago called ,they want their XRE lobes back .Seriously Ron,who do expect will believe you can pick up 40 rwhp by adding 2 degrees of duration on each side.If 500+ rwhp setups were this common it would have already been available from more knowledgable R&D shop.

I will comment on your post above as soon as I can figure out what the hell you just said....

If you think the crew at Vengeance is just getting into this market, think again ;)

I have said it 16 times and I will say it again.

Vengeance Racing- 504/440s /... 521/460s.... 513/450s.....
JefftStar-498/450s BUILT IN HIS GARAGE
ECS-500s/450s
AFR-510/440s
and on and on and on and on......

Notice in the graph above from Brian Tooley that we were making 400 ftlbs @4000rpm over 2 years ago on INDEPENDENT DYNOS

Keep that lil B1 from 5 years ago and let the times pass you by my friend.... Technology and "magic ported FAST intakes" are moving ahead :D :D :D

:jest: :corn: :cheers:

I will comment on your post above as soon as I can figure out what the hell you just said....

Get off the internet and finish my damn motor :judge:

Get off the internet and finish my damn motor :judge:


Motor to come soon Mike now get back to slapping these fools around for me will ya.

And Brain T (YOU ARE THE MAN!!!). Bottom line if somebody made a better head I would have to lose Brain T's number. JK Brain :)

Guys stuff is real get over it hell what are you going to do when 10 more of these cars hit the street in the next few months. LOL :eek2:

Bottom line is these peoples combo's are outdated...and someone else is making more power than they are...and thats just not fair! :cry:


Guys keep busting out the cars...dont worry about these internet racers. Me and Mikey will take care of them
(looks like the SS pitbulls are gettin loose :devil:)


Everyone is talking about the cars "running the number". Has anyone ever thought that maybe the owners cant drive for shit and never will be able to? i mean hell...i happen to be one of those kinds of owners :jest:

Bottom line is these peoples combo's are outdated...and someone else is making more power than they are...and thats just not fair! :cry:


Guys keep busting out the cars...dont worry about these internet racers. Me and Mikey will take care of them
(looks like the SS pitbulls are gettin loose :devil:)


Everyone is talking about the cars "running the number". Has anyone ever thought that maybe the owners cant drive for shit and never will be able to? i mean hell...i happen to be one of those kinds of owners :jest:

It is true some guys can't hit the # at the track I can't either but we will see a sign of the powa' in the trap speed I should think.

Everyone is talking about the cars "running the number". Has anyone ever thought that maybe the owners cant drive for shit and never will be able to?

thats sooooooo true :)

thats sooooooo true :)

i mean i had a 530+rwhp 408 that trapped 120s+ but i couldnt get it lower than a 11.60 on some shitty tires/60fts...

but the damn thing had 10s written all over it...:)

On all of our other heads that we used to do, we saw the Kooks make as good or better power than the LG's. The exhaust port on this new TFS head is a bigger departure from any LS head we have done in the past. Casey from SAM told us what they had found, we tried it, and it seemed to work. We had never tested it with the LG headers and assumed this exhaust port with its 1.575" exhaust valve would act like all of our other heads. The only time we had seen the LG headers perform better was with an AFR head that has a 1.60" exhaust valve, which we feel is too big for a 5.7 engine N/A. So it seems the TFS head may perform better with the LG header, and the only way to know for sure is to test it back to back, like we have seen other shops do for us. What header are you running Phil?

Ah, is that why you told me it may be best to experiment with a few exhaust combinations? I'm actually split between the QTP HVMC and Kooks Stepped headers for the 402 with the TFS 225s. I'm sure both would work well.

Do you think that the roughly equal length kooks are that much of a handicap over the 31-40" LGs? I'd imagine that the equal length header would perform better because each cylinder is tuned to the same RPM while the other side is all over the place... some tuned high rpm, some tuned low rpm.
Phil

I've seen numbers that seem to indicate that equal length doesn't really seem to matter for an exhaust. In fact, consider the firing order. If a set of headers were created based off of firing order and cam timing, you could optimize and tune each length and diameter of pipe to produce every last drop of power. It may only be worth 1rwhp or it could be worth a ton, but either way it would be expensive for custom one-off headers that would be designed based on each individual engine.

Anyway, I don't think equal length is going to give you a ton. Intake manifolds do not provide airflow exactly the same to all cylinders (hence why if you look at A/F at each cylinder, they are all different by sometimes crazy amounts). Even looking at a carb-type intake, the inner runners get a straighter shot of air than those at the corners.

The LGs are pretty damn close to being equal length, though. I thought all the runners were about 32" give-or-take a slight bit. With the Vette, the exhaust is easier to make symmetrical with an equal length from merge to X-Pipe and so-forth. The F-Body is stuck with a Y-Pipe that's longer on the driver side to the merge than the passenger side.

If you read David Vizard and A. Graham Bell, you'll get some theories and formulas for exhaust tuning.

Vengeance Racing give me a chance and ill put your combo to 10.0-10.2s

i still havent gone full potential w/ my setup. im looking for 10.9s w/ my 236 cam

-brandon

I will be posting up new AFR 205's and 236 .651 lsk#'s in the next month.

Ah, is that why you told me it may be best to experiment with a few exhaust combinations? I'm actually split between the QTP HVMC and Kooks Stepped headers for the 402 with the TFS 225s. I'm sure both would work well.



I've seen numbers that seem to indicate that equal length doesn't really seem to matter for an exhaust. In fact, consider the firing order. If a set of headers were created based off of firing order and cam timing, you could optimize and tune each length and diameter of pipe to produce every last drop of power. It may only be worth 1rwhp or it could be worth a ton, but either way it would be expensive for custom one-off headers that would be designed based on each individual engine.

Anyway, I don't think equal length is going to give you a ton. Intake manifolds do not provide airflow exactly the same to all cylinders (hence why if you look at A/F at each cylinder, they are all different by sometimes crazy amounts). Even looking at a carb-type intake, the inner runners get a straighter shot of air than those at the corners.

The LGs are pretty damn close to being equal length, though. I thought all the runners were about 32" give-or-take a slight bit. With the Vette, the exhaust is easier to make symmetrical with an equal length from merge to X-Pipe and so-forth. The F-Body is stuck with a Y-Pipe that's longer on the driver side to the merge than the passenger side.

If you read David Vizard and A. Graham Bell, you'll get some theories and formulas for exhaust tuning.

Measure the LGs and let me know each runner length. I bet you find 8-9 inches difference in the shortest and longest.
Phil

Well guys I made it out to the track today. My car is the 02 Z06 that made 505rwhp 443 rwtq from Vengenace Racing.

I didn't have to hot of a day at the track this was the first time out in this car (besides 2 passes when it was bone stock) and first time I ran at the track in 2 years.

I made 4 passes 2 of the I missed a gear the other 2 were OK at best.

First pass: missed gear aborted run

2nd pass (I bogged the hell of the car)
60 ft 1.77
1/8 mile 7.35
mph 100.20

3rd pass missed gear aborted run

4th pass ( Little better launch I got excited and shifted 1-2 at 6000 rpm.)
60ft 1.62
1/8 mile 7.0
mph 101.40

All in all not to bad for the first time out. But this car has got a 6.7 @ 103+ launched and shifted right.

Still on stock 3.42 gears and rearend.

That mph in the 1/8 is awsome. my mph with 441 rwhp is 94.8 but in a 3700 lb race weight. You are showing that the numbers are backed up by mph

Congrats man!!! THANK YOU for hitting the track :) 101 in the 1/8 SHOULD make most of these guys believers... Esp on a soft 60ft like that and POSITIVE DA....


Congrats again man.

Well guys I made it out to the track today. My car is the 02 Z06 that made 505rwhp 443 rwtq from Vengenace Racing.

I didn't have to hot of a day at the track this was the first time out in this car (besides 2 passes when it was bone stock) and first time I ran at the track in 2 years.

I made 4 passes 2 of the I missed a gear the other 2 were OK at best.

First pass: missed gear aborted run

2nd pass (I bogged the hell of the car)
60 ft 1.77
1/8 mile 7.35
mph 100.20

3rd pass missed gear aborted run

4th pass ( Little better launch I got excited and shifted 1-2 at 6000 rpm.)
60ft 1.62
1/8 mile 7.0
mph 101.40

All in all not to bad for the first time out. But this car has got a 6.7 @ 103+ launched and shifted right.

Still on stock 3.42 gears and rearend.

Well guys I made it out to the track today. My car is the 02 Z06 that made 505rwhp 443 rwtq from Vengenace Racing.

I didn't have to hot of a day at the track this was the first time out in this car (besides 2 passes when it was bone stock) and first time I ran at the track in 2 years.

I made 4 passes 2 of the I missed a gear the other 2 were OK at best.

First pass: missed gear aborted run

2nd pass (I bogged the hell of the car)
60 ft 1.77
1/8 mile 7.35
mph 100.20

3rd pass missed gear aborted run

4th pass ( Little better launch I got excited and shifted 1-2 at 6000 rpm.)
60ft 1.62
1/8 mile 7.0
mph 101.40

All in all not to bad for the first time out. But this car has got a 6.7 @ 103+ launched and shifted right.

Still on stock 3.42 gears and rearend.

I assume you will post the slips :) When you gonna try a 1/4 mile?

I assume you will post the slips :) When you gonna try a 1/4 mile?

Its just never enough is it.... LMFAO.....

I got a video If I can ever get it off damn camera

Hey man, good results. I am in the same boat as you, I need more seat time at the track lol. Keep us updated if you get it down any lower.

I did go a 6.96 @ 101.5 w/ 1.59 60ft last sunday.. Still only shifting at 6400/6500 instead of 7000 and 15 psi in the et streets instead of 10/11 psi, trying to save my stock rearend.

If I try to shifting at 7000 the tranny doesn't want to go into gear at all.

great run man

Not to down on anyone's parade (who has been putting down these "amazing", "unbelievable", and "magical" 500+whp 346 cars) but DemonicBird00 (Black TA with stock heads) has gone as fast as 7.071 @ just over 98mph with his new 245/250 cam.


Stock (241 castings) heads, unported on his car, 6 speed with a aproximate weight of 3200lbs, and lowering springs.

With some good heads, it would be expected to gain, what probably 40-50whp over stock castings (never been ported, so he tells the world) and thats easily good for another 1-2 mph at least. That puts him right in the ballpark of these cars, and more backup for the fact that these cars are not putting down "magical" numbers, and they are for real.


Vengeance, TFS, AFR, keep doing what you guys do best, make power (and with that comes doubters, always) and speed.

lmfao where did all the haters go suddenly??? the track results were posted and now everybody shut the fuck up??? ROTFLMAO!!!!! :jest:


Brian tooley, if i had the money you would have another set of TFS heads sold :drive:

lmfao where did all the haters go suddenly??? the track results were posted and now everybody shut the fuck up??? ROTFLMAO!!!!! :jest:


Brian tooley, if i had the money you would have another set of TFS heads sold :drive:


Sorry but I did not see anything special ET or MPH wise out of these 500+ cars.

Cars that make 60 less HP on our dyno trap the same or better at a heavier weight so instead of calling BS on every post they make I just let it go.

This place is the matrix, you believe what you want to believe. If its posted here it must be true. :jest:

What does your 408 run?

Sorry but I did not see anything special ET or MPH wise out of these 500+ cars.

Cars that make 60 less HP on our dyno trap the same or better at a heavier weight so instead of calling BS on every post they make I just let it go.

This place is the matrix, you believe what you want to believe. If its posted here it must be true. :jest:

What does your 408 run?


shitty... its slow :devil:



realistically though... the track is closed here for a couple more weeks. Then we will see what it will do. new dyno numbers will be had this saturday :devil:

shitty... its slow :devil:



realistically though... the track is closed here for a couple more weeks. Then we will see what it will do. new dyno numbers will be had this saturday :devil:


Dyno racing is gay just so you know :gtfo: :jest:

Good luck with it! :drive:

Dyno racing is gay just so you know :gtfo: :jest:

Good luck with it! :drive:


haha yeah... i know..... thats why i said, the track is closed and i havent had a chance :D


i ran 12.01 @ the track in wendover but i missed 4th gear thanks to my POS hydraulics... (keep in mind our elevation is 4000 feet up here) :bang: put down 480 RWHP with the old LS6 intake/ 19" chrome wheels and a fucked up exhaust valve :jest:

haha yeah... i know..... thats why i said, the track is closed and i havent had a chance :D


i ran 12.01 @ the track in wendover but i missed 4th gear thanks to my POS hydraulics... (keep in mind our elevation is 4000 feet up here) :bang: put down 480 RWHP with the old LS6 intake/ 19" chrome wheels and a fucked up exhaust valve :jest:


So these Vengence guys are putting 40+ hp over your 408 with stock cubes :eek2: :jest:

Better hurry up and order up a vindicator, violator or what ever it is. :mullet: :)

So these Vengence guys are putting 40+ hp over your 408 with stock cubes :eek2: :jest:

Better hurry up and order up a vindicator, violator or what ever it is. :mullet: :)



lmfao :jest: :jest: :jest: :jest: :jest: dude you got me chucklin pretty loud on that one hahahha

lmfao :jest: :jest: :jest: :jest: :jest: dude you got me chucklin pretty loud on that one hahahha


:buttkick: :swing: :rotflmao:


:jest: :)

:buttkick: :swing: :rotflmao:


:jest: :)

Man, for a guy who thinks dynos are so gay you sure spend alot of time in the dyno section :secret2: :mullet:

Man, for a guy who thinks dynos are so gay you sure spend alot of time in the dyno section :secret2: :mullet:

YEAH!!! :gtfo: ATV racer!!!


:jest: :jest: :jest:

Dynos are a great toll when used properly.

Dyno racing or "box top" racing is gay FYI :poke:

Dynos are a great toll when used properly.

Dyno racing or "box top" racing is gay FYI :poke:

I couldnt agree more... I dont think you have seen anyone from Vengeance come on here and say "my car is faster than yours cause it made more on the dyno" :D :D :D We have simply posted results in a forum provided to us to share information with others...

Even though a dyno is "gay" there is more to drag racing than saying "O that car made 520 on a dyno it will trap 120 in the 1/8"..... Getting a car down the 1320 for maximum ET takes more than just horsepower.. I think we all know that. Our Vette than made 503rwhp trapped 102 with a guy who had never had his Z06 down the 1/4 and it was short shifted all the way down the track.... Just because it went 102 doesnt mean it wont go faster once he gets it dialed in.....

:cheers:

I couldnt agree more... I dont think you have seen anyone from Vengeance come on here and say "my car is faster than yours cause it made more on the dyno" :D :D :D We have simply posted results in a forum provided to us to share information with others...

Even though a dyno is "gay" there is more to drag racing than saying "O that car made 520 on a dyno it will trap 120 in the 1/8"..... Getting a car down the 1320 for maximum ET takes more than just horsepower.. I think we all know that. Our Vette than made 503rwhp trapped 102 with a guy who had never had his Z06 down the 1/4 and it was short shifted all the way down the track.... Just because it went 102 doesnt mean it wont go faster once he gets it dialed in.....

:cheers:


I have to agree with you, Vengence has not done that.... the nutswingers have tho. :jest:

We use the dyno to test cams, intakes, heads , blah blah blah. And the Mustang that we use will get us really close to a good tune up for the track.

My guess is there is a little left on the table from a Dynojet only tune. Tuning at the track will get you to the finish line quickest because it the car will have the TRUE load on it. Not that Vengence doesnt know that but I bet there are alot of people on here that dont.

Good luck with the shop, you guys seem to be turning out some nice cars :drive: :)

Every shop has nut swingers... Trust me, they arent on the payroll ;)

I couldnt agree more than track tuning is where it counts... We plan to make as many events this year as possible to support our customers at the track... If we had some hardcore drag racers down here in Ga like you GB guys we would have already been there ;)

Thanx for the props on the shop. I honestly enjoy seeing cars like OffAxis GTO 1200 miles away making 480s missing quite a few bolt ons more so than the ones we are building here.
I have to agree with you, Vengence has not done that.... the nutswingers have tho. :jest:

We use the dyno to test cams, intakes, heads , blah blah blah. And the Mustang that we use will get us really close to a good tune up for the track.

My guess is there is a little left on the table from a Dynojet only tune. Tuning at the track will get you to the finish line quickest because it the car will have the TRUE load on it. Not that Vengence doesnt know that but I bet there are alot of people on here that dont.

Good luck with the shop, you guys seem to be turning out some nice cars :drive: :)

its all bullshit anyway

Well, welcome to LS1Tech ;)

Most recent dyno, after new thinner head gaskets my new 346 ci rwtq numbers are 445.6

After adding the ported 90/90 combo I am looking fwd to a few more.

I have to agree with you, Vengence has not done that.... the nutswingers have tho. :jest:

Dude the shop nutswingers are all over this site, I remember a thread a few weeks ago that put a not so great light on TSP and every TSP nutswinger that bought a cam from them jumped all over that and just talked shit. The same thing also happened with a thread about a Vengeance cam, the vengeance nutswingers came in and talked shit until teh vengeance guys came in and cleared up the issue.

I accidently put down 461ft lbs my last Dyno Run.

Blake

Had to repost, currently making 455.8 rwtq in my lil ole 346

Had to repost, currently making 455.8 rwtq in my lil ole 346

Hi allngn_c5,

Congrat on your new numbers.

Post a graph when you have a chance, I would like to see if your engine can beat those 390 ft-lbs of RWTQ @ 3200 rpm from Vengeance.

Christian

Hi allngn_c5,

Congrat on your new numbers.

Post a graph when you have a chance, I would like to see if your engine can beat those 390 ft-lbs of RWTQ @ 3200 rpm from Vengeance.

Christian


I am going to go look. I think I am very close.

Hi allngn_c5,

Congrat on your new numbers.

Post a graph when you have a chance, I would like to see if your engine can beat those 390 ft-lbs of RWTQ @ 3200 rpm from Vengeance.

Christian


Nope..... :eyes:

eh, mine is close. 375 rwtq @ 3200 rpm. Although, that is through a 9" and 4.30's which lost 19 ftlbs @ 3200. Doesnt help dynoing on a low dyno either :D

eh, mine is close. 375 rwtq @ 3200 rpm. Although, that is through a 9" and 4.30's which lost 19 ftlbs @ 3200. Doesnt help dynoing on a low dyno either :D

Hi WS6FirebirdTA00,

You'r closing the gap in low range with a very nice combination certainly very drivable....but no one seems to reproduce the low torque of the "Vengeance package" PLUS the max power on the top!!!with a 346ci...

Have fun
Christian

I may be wrong, but the cars I have seen have mostly been on stock gearing. That would put me at 395 ft lbs @ 3200 rpm and 495 rwhp. Put this on a dyno that reads more with the average results on here and that is another pickup across the board that would put me near 510 rwhp and 465 ft lbs (I know these losses because I did back to back testing).

Not to mention I am doing this with a 230/232 cam ;)

In the end, there is a lot that can play a factor, and the rear and dyno play the biggest role. You cant really compare numbers without having a reference (which is why I base lined on the other dyno) I went 473/441 to 456/426 just changing dynos, then 449/414 after rear end and EWP. Either way, they have a nice package and without a doubt are paying attention to these small details to pull every pony across the board :)

I made 430RWH/415RWT SAE corrected 3350lbs and ran a 10.89@124 threw an A4...

>700 ftlbs rwtq, stock inch ls1

;)

>700 ftlbs rwtq, stock inch ls1

;)

Hi Frost,

In the tittle of this thread:

from stock 346 (NA) on pump gas?? Post up if you make 430+
Are you still in? :eek2:

Christian

Hi Frost,

In the tittle of this thread:

from stock 346 (NA) on pump gas?? Post up if you make 430+
Are you still in? :eek2:

Christian

not with that turbo he has :D

Had a car we did about two years ago that made 430rwhp and 425rwtq with FAST 90/90, F13, and a Stage II 241 casting ported heads on a Mustang Dyno. Yank 4000rpm, 3.73:1 gear. At 3500rpm had 380rwtq.

Vengeance Racing recently made 521/464 through my 03 ZO6.Here's the link.http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=661579

Some news about this exceptional ZO6 346 Ci. na 521rwhp/464rwtq:

The ex owner just sold her for really cheap (as it was advertised...) because he had personnal problems.
The new buyer made an amazing good deal.
The car had for $40,000.00 in modification and he drove her only 2000 miles since the dyno time (according to the owner)
The shame is that he never got the opportunity to bring those huge numbers to the strip...

RON@VENGEANCE just bought her back and the shop is owning her since few days...

Ron, are we going to have some E.T. from the drag strip soon on this car, do you plan to race her?

Christian

TrickFlow Cylinder heads with a 13.5* Valve angle with better MID LIFT flow #s than other heads out there thus producing more power UNDER THE CURVE than your typical combination.

TonyM modified PatrickG's new AFR 205 heads for better MID LIFT air flow #s by opening chambers to 4" bore and shaving heads for good DCR. Would Patrick gain more more torque @3000 rpm by simply bolting on shaved Trick Flow heads (same DCR as AFR setup) and optimizing the setup with tuning using the same dyno/weather conditions of course? That is the question!

ENCORE ENCORE

Tread title should have been:
"Highest torque @3000 rpm" from stock 346 (NA) on pump gas?? Post up if you make 430 or higher peak HP.




----------------------------------------------------------------

It isnt necessarily that the heads are SO MUCH superior.. its the cam profile that vengeance is taking advantage of which maximizes the heads flow potential.

:lurk: :funny:

Tread title should have been:
"Highest torque @3000 rpm" from stock 346 (NA) on pump gas?? Post up if you make 430 or higher peak HP.




----------------------------------------------------------------


I will agree here...but will had to not forget the top end power :wavey:

EXCUSE ME...Tread title should have been:
"Highest torque @3000 rpm" from stock 346 (NA) on pump gas?? Post up if you make "500 or higher peak HP".

I have been curious about this and I havent found a post about it (only HP) so post them up. If you make over 430 ft-lbs and meet the following:

-Stock 346 bottom end
-Pump gas (no race gas, or mix, just strait pump gas no octane boosters either, if you dynoed with race gas, dont post)
-No power adders, just NA cars

then post the following info:

-dyno graph (SAE #'s only)
-compression ratio
-fuel octane
-setup description (cam, heads, intake, ect)

I know we have a lot of setups making good torque and it seems to thin out at 430 ft lbs, I just would like to see how different setups are doing.

Hello Mike,

There are some interesting info all along this thread you initiated a while ago, hope it will stay round...

I saw that now 11 (eleven) votes are in the 455 rwtq, I couldn't make the exact inventory of them...did you?

Christian

I voted just to see the results, but I dont' have 455+ like I voted for.

What has developed with this car?!!! Has a time slip ever been put up for this car (521/464) that correlates to the power? Has the car been dynoed else where to confirm the results? Has vengance been able to put together another car just like this one that was as good or better? Or was it a fake like everyone thought.

It's the most impressive dyno I've ever seen for an NA engine of any size. Those results are better than most FI results.

Any one with some info please post up and fill me in on how this all ended. Thank you.
Russ

It's the most impressive dyno I've ever seen for an NA engine of any size. Those results are better than most FI results.

Now that you say that.. very interesting proposition.

I voted just to see the results, but I dont' have 455+ like I voted for.

What has developed with this car?!!! Has a time slip ever been put up for this car (521/464) that correlates to the power? Has the car been dynoed else where to confirm the results? Has vengance been able to put together another car just like this one that was as good or better? Or was it a fake like everyone thought.

It's the most impressive dyno I've ever seen for an NA engine of any size. Those results are better than most FI results.

Any one with some info please post up and fill me in on how this all ended. Thank you.
Russ

Lol... the only people who thought it was fake were the guys on the internet... All of the locals who either saw it or got their ass handed to them by it knew it was legit.... The car was on our dyno, another dyno in Marietta Georgia and ANOTHER dyno in Elberton Georgia... All three were within 5rwhp/4rwtq..... Have we duplicated this package?? No, not as extreme as this particular car.. Have we broken 500/450... Yes, 3 times now... It takes EVERY bolt on, a strong shortblock, high compression, spot on tuning.... Our package ranges from 475/420 to 500/450 depending on the car and supporting modifications....

As for the car now, the customer has had some financial difficulties so it was posted on CorvetteForum for sale... Nobody had enough interest to come forward so we bought the car and it is sitting in our shop. It will get ran in the fall when its not 100+ degrees outside

That's great to hear, I can't wait to see what the results are. Glad you got the car back, that's an incredible set up.

Thanks,
Russ

Finally I can put my munbers up.
HP 441 TORQ 397.

Finally I can put my munbers up.
HP 441 TORQ 397.
Why did you post that? The thread is for 430+ TORQUE .

Lol! ^

Perhaps I missed it but did Ron ever run the vette in the fall?

I'd like to know what it ran also...

Sorry for not posting up guys... I get a lil scatter brained from time to time. I did run the car @ Carolina Dragway this past fall. Best pass was a 10.76@ 133.7mph. 60ft was a high 1.6..... I wasnt really driving the car TOO hard since I drove it to the track and needed it to take me home :)

Ill see if I can dig up the timeslip for you guys. Its a strong Z06 to say the least!!!

holy shit that is IMPRESSIVE.

I love that mph for a n/a 346 totally insane.

holy shit that is IMPRESSIVE.

I love that mph for a n/a 346 totally insane.


Thanks!!! You should be in the low 130s yourself with the power you are making... Get out there and drive it like you stole it :D :D

Do you go to that track alot?

me?? As time allows... I wish i could be there ALOT more but between the shop/family/new home I dont make it as much as I would like.....

Let me know next time a bunch of the vengeance cars head out there. I'd like to see some of them run. It's only about an hour from me. And did you get my computer yet?

I have a 2002 Trans Am WS6, 205 AFR 66cc heads Comp Cams XR275HR Cam(.566/.568 222/224 112) PS Long tube headers ORY Flow master cat-back 85mm MAF.

436hp and 430torque

I dont understand something. ... RON@vengeance just put out a combo with similiar numbers to MIAMI933c297.

Everyone is calling poopoo on RON, but no one doubts MIAMI. I dont understand this. Why is that?


p.s. I am not doubting either of you, and i dont mean to call into question MIAMI's results. just curious about the contradiction.

I'll take a stab at that.

Ron is in the business of making money.
A great business to be in.

Miami is not - he is strictly bragging rights.

Understand now?

Viper nailed it on the head. If we post results that big we are inflating the #s to sell packages. If a customer posts the same results they get(well deserved) respect!!!

Funny thing is our packages have not only backed up their dyno #s all over the country, but they have run the # time and time again ;)

Anyone see this months GMHTP with Project Pinkenstein featured? 10.90s @ 3400lbs with a shit converter.... TFS 215s/Vindicator camshaft ;)

BTW, Im not taking ANYTHING away from Miami #s. We KNOW it can be done because we have done it several times ourselves.

Also, we are in the business of making money. BUT, this business is reputation based. If people see your stuff isnt legit or isnt running the # then they will go elsewhere so fudging dyno results will only get you so far.

I dont understand something. ... RON@vengeance just put out a combo with similiar numbers to MIAMI933c297.

Everyone is calling poopoo on RON, but no one doubts MIAMI. I dont understand this. Why is that?


p.s. I am not doubting either of you, and i dont mean to call into question MIAMI's results. just curious about the contradiction.

It's all about the Haterade. Too many people are drinking it.

Ron,
Have seen the graphs and they are REALLY impressive to a relative Newb such as myself. It is great to see you guys making this kind of power, and I think that it is pretty typical (and expected) for everyone to doubt it. Especially since many of them, myself included, simply already did our package. MY question is why not just take each of the customer's cars and to get corresponding numbers from say 3 different independent dynos? At around $60/session, that would be roughly $180 per vehicle, or around $540 altogether (assuming you guys couldn't get discounts which i am sure you could). This would be money well spent (almost like advertising). It would definately end any doubts that the nay sayers have. Anyway, keep up the good work and I look forward to seeing more great numbers from your shop!

Been there done that... Posted a 500rwhp Vette on three different dynos. Had another CUSTOMER post his 503 graph from 2 different dynos. Had a 440 Z06 we built on 4 different dynos with ours being the lowest @ 609rwhp... It made as much as 622 on another dyno... Aside from dynos, our cars have run the # at the track ;)

Been there done that... Posted a 500rwhp Vette on three different dynos. Had another CUSTOMER post his 503 graph from 2 different dynos. Had a 440 Z06 we built on 4 different dynos with ours being the lowest @ 609rwhp... It made as much as 622 on another dyno... Aside from dynos, our cars have run the # at the track ;)

I imagine the 6.5 foot decrease in sea level, .8 degree drop in temp, and alignment of saturn in relation to the earth would all have been reasons why people complained about your test. They seem to find any reason to doubt numbers. Doesnt make sense to me, even coming from a very well proven and respected sponser.

I dont understand something. ... RON@vengeance just put out a combo with similiar numbers to MIAMI933c297.

Everyone is calling poopoo on RON, but no one doubts MIAMI. I dont understand this. Why is that?


p.s. I am not doubting either of you, and i dont mean to call into question MIAMI's results. just curious about the contradiction.

Hi Johny GTO and everyone,

I find funny to see this thread coming up regularly...everything has been said and debated, at least I guess.

And NO, the results that Vengeance obtained with their mentioned ZO6 are very different of the results obtained from my engine, read the graphs:

-From 3100 rpm to 3600 rpm the Vengeance engine is producing 390 RWTQ
-From 3700 rpm to 4000 rpm you will read 400 + RWTQ, already very impressive
-Going over 450 RWTQ at 4400 rpm!!!!!!! That is simply magic with a 346 cid if you still make power at 6900 rpm and consider the car is still streetable!!!!!

With the power developed by this special engine between 6000 rpm and 7000 rpm plus the amount of torque down low, it has been very difficult for a lot of persons to admit that at Vengeance they could extract from a small cid what a lot of engine builders are not able to create with bigger cubes.

At the end, the results of my engine are exposed inside this forum in a detailed and documented thread (pics/vids/graphs/prices/facts and measurements) to inform any member interested, and not to argue or fight against I don't know who for complete obscur reasons...for me...

Have fun
Christian

EDIT: Nevermind.... The car trapped 133mph and it is still "questionable" lmao..... Put it to bed guys.

You bunch of dyno racers need to let this thread die already.

There was no box on the poll for me.
I made 405rwtq when my heads/cam 03 Zo6 ran a best 132.8 mph.
Stock weight/suspension.

There was no box on the poll for me.
I made 405rwtq when my heads/cam 03 Zo6 ran a best 132.8 mph.
Stock weight/suspension.

Hi robz*,

I guess with 405rwtq your max power was around 475/480rwhp....

Then from where are coming those almost 133mph?
-Track conditions
-Density Altitude
-Tuning
-Drivetrain choice/ratio/tires
-Driver Ability and Skills.

BTW what was your max revs crossing the line?
Christian

You bunch of dyno racers need to let this thread die already.

:judge::werd::stupid:

:hijack:

Hi robz*,

I guess with 405rwtq your max power was around 475/480rwhp....

Then from where are coming those almost 133mph?
-Track conditions
-Density Altitude
-Tuning
-Drivetrain choice/ratio/tires
-Driver Ability and Skills.

BTW what was your max revs crossing the line?
Christian

You are correct on the rwhp #'s.
I'm going thru the traps around 6900.
To trap 130+ with a strong ET and 60'(N/A) alot needs to come together including all the things you mentioned above.
I have about 20 timeslips trapping over 130mph.
I also have a few videos from 2005 showing 130mph trap speed with slicks and a good 60' time.(approx. 463whp/404wtq) Typically my car traps about 1-2 mph faster with drag radials.
There are alot of things claimed in this thread that I find very hard to believe.

You are correct on the rwhp #'s.
I'm going thru the traps around 6900.
To trap 130+ with a strong ET and 60'(N/A) alot needs to come together including all the things you mentioned above.
I have about 20 timeslips trapping over 130mph.
I also have a few videos from 2005 showing 130mph trap speed with slicks and a good 60' time.(approx. 463whp/404wtq) Typically my car traps about 1-2 mph faster with drag radials.
There are alot of things claimed in this thread that I find very hard to believe.

robz*,

The certitudes I had about the relation between the RWHP and the TRAP SPEED are now falling appart...big news, at least for me and from what I did learn here inside this forum

Following your real world results:

- You only need ~480rwhp in a 2003 ZO6 to trap 133mph
- You only need ~460rwhp in a 2003 ZO6 to trap 130mph

This is giving some new light to this thread...interesting.

Other thoughts/results from drag racers?

Christian

robz*,

The certitudes I had about the relation between the RWHP and the TRAP SPEED are now falling appart...big news, at least for me and from what I did learn here inside this forum

Following your real world results:

- You only need ~480rwhp in a 2003 ZO6 to trap 133mph
- You only need ~460rwhp in a 2003 ZO6 to trap 130mph

This is giving some new light to this thread...interesting.

Other thoughts/results from drag racers?

Christian
I agree with the above and it's been done but you will need near ideal conditions and to be spot on with your shifting(timing/shift points/powershifts)

Most people discard the fact that driver also strongly influences mph.
I've seen differences of 6+ mph between two diffrenent drivers-same car/same day.

Keep in mind:
I'm specifically talking about manual transmissions.
These are best runs over many, many passes.
Vettes tend to mph higher than other cars for their respective ET's
These were all on slicks(dr's would likely have been slightly higher)

Also
124+mph with 396 rwhp
127 mph with 420 rwhp

robz*,

The certitudes I had about the relation between the RWHP and the TRAP SPEED are now falling appart...big news, at least for me and from what I did learn here inside this forum

Following your real world results:

- You only need ~480rwhp in a 2003 ZO6 to trap 133mph
- You only need ~460rwhp in a 2003 ZO6 to trap 130mph

This is giving some new light to this thread...interesting.

Other thoughts/results from drag racers?

Christian
I agree with the above and it's been done but you will need near ideal conditions and to be spot on with your shifting(timing/shift points/powershifts)

Most people discard the fact that driver also strongly influences mph.
I've seen differences of 6+ mph between two diffrenent drivers-same car/same day.

Keep in mind:
I'm specifically talking about manual transmissions.
These are best runs over many, many passes.
I have some video showing mph.

Most people discard the fact that driver also strongly influences mph.
I've seen differences of 6+ mph between two diffrenent drivers-same car/same day.




Now there is the BEST answer for differences.

Seat time and skill will beat Mods and dyno numbers EVERY TIME.

Now there is the BEST answer for differences.

Seat time and skill will beat Mods and dyno numbers EVERY TIME.

yup the guys going fast and then people claiming that MPH for watever setup are really beating on their cars. Thats the perfect pass, perfect shifts and perfect launch at near limiter. I know the deal, I power shift too but I feel for the tranny LOL.

1.5 60 and perfect shifts will lead to all the times people claim.
I hope do it in a few weeks. :devil:

so what is the highest torque ever from a NA 346/7 ?

Have any of these 430-445 ft lb h/c cars trapped over 125 or 126? At full weight that should be pretty easy to do.

Thats the one problem I have w/the internet dyno reporting. LOTS OF HP, NO MPH.

430 torque mobs in below.

matt,
with a torque number like that, i am surprised you didnt get a higher hp number. I dont see an intake manifold on your mod list. i would have to say your stock manifold is choking off your High RPM powah.

well can any of you guys trap over a hundred with less than a hundred hp... i didn't think sooo... 1969 bug!!!

Thats the one problem I have w/the internet dyno reporting. LOTS OF HP, NO MPH.

I have trapped a best of 138+mph with around 425-430 rwtq in a c5Z with some weight removal.

I have trapped a best of 138+mph with around 425-430 rwtq in a c5Z with some weight removal.

:engarde: I have read about your car. Though I have to question data coming from Atco (it all seems faster than most I see), I'll give your ride credit it deserves. A lot of the guys on this forum report legit data, just sometimes I have to scratch my head at what I read and the combo.

BTW, does your engine always backfire like that on shifts?

:engarde: I have read about your car. Though I have to question data coming from Atco (it all seems faster than most I see), I'll give your ride credit it deserves. A lot of the guys on this forum report legit data, just sometimes I have to scratch my head at what I read and the combo.

BTW, does your engine always backfire like that on shifts?

Usually, because of the 2 step.
Atco gets great air in the fall and we have alot of competitive racers in this area. I also report legit times.

I have trapped a best of 138+mph with around 425-430 rwtq in a c5Z with some weight removal.


No you havent n/a..your other post about it was closed and locked due to false claims. and they normally backfire a bit due to the hidden n20 kit on the car.

No you havent n/a..your other post about it was closed and locked due to false claims. and they normally backfire a bit due to the hidden n20 kit on the car.

mine backfires like that between shifts down the track sometimes, so that means i have a hidden nitrous kit?

No you havent n/a..your other post about it was closed and locked due to false claims. and they normally backfire a bit due to the hidden n20 kit on the car.



Let me get a seat and some popcorn. I want to see how this one ends up!! Them theres fighting words LOL :)

ive seen a lot of hi compression n/a cars backfiring like that, maybe he said "hidden" because he was there in person to check out his car?

I have less than 370 rwtq in an a4 ms3 car and trap 124.... pretty sweet.

:engarde:

I have less than 370 rwtq in an a4 ms3 car and trap 124.... pretty sweet.

:engarde:

Strong runner automatic, that and you have a good amount of hp to accelerate you.:nod:

I have less than 370 rwtq in an a4 ms3 car and trap 124.... pretty sweet.
:engarde:

380trq here and pull 118mph with 3700lbs raceweight

455 plus

455 plus

care to elaborate?

care to elaborate?

Hi Demonicbird00,

This one has been BANNED...

Christian

ahhh ok got it christian!!

I make 590 rwtq, with m6, 70mm STS rearmount, with meth, and air to air front intercooler, on a stock bottom end.

No you havent n/a..your other post about it was closed and locked due to false claims. and they normally backfire a bit due to the hidden n20 kit on the car.
The thread wasn't locked for false claims... it was locked b/c of personal attacks towards RobZ from people trying to discredit him.

No you havent n/a..your other post about it was closed and locked due to false claims. and they normally backfire a bit due to the hidden n20 kit on the car.


Care to admit you were wrong on all 3 accounts?

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/performance-results/2286229-congrats-robz-featured-in-gmhtp.html