View Poll Results: Which Bolt-on Forced Induction Kit
ATI Procharger
23
58.97%
MagnaCharger
4
10.26%
Turbo Technology
6
15.38%
Ohio Forced Induction
4
10.26%
Speed Inc.
0
0%
Other
2
5.13%
Voters: 39. You may not vote on this poll
Best true bolt-on FI Kit?
10-14-2006, 08:32 AM
#1
Best true bolt-on FI Kit? I just bought a 2002 Trans Am with an A4. The car only has 15K miles on it so I don't want to tear into the motor yet. I have looked at several kit offered by vendors, each one having strong points and weak ones. My goal is 450-500whp. I want this install with very little or no relocation or cutting of the factory parts. I don't need a complete kit since I have a fuel system and HP Tuner programmer. I know I have to will obtain the needed support parts for each type like headers/y-pipe for the superchargers. I also plan on installing a water/alky kit to keep the engine knock down. So here are the choices with their faults for my goals.
ATI Procharger P-1SC or D-1SC
8-rib requires ATI Damper Upgrade
Some cutting required to fit intercoolers
MagnaCharger M112
Requires cutting of hood and under windshield sheetmetal for clearance
Turbo Technology Single T-76
Requires cutting of sheetmetal near window wash tank and a smaller tank
Requires tapping into engine oil system
Aluminzied steel exhaust tubing
Ohio Forced Induction Single T-76
Requires tapping into engine oil system
Exhaust tubing routed high around engine with high underhood temps
Speed Inc. Coming soon Twin GT35R DBB Turbo
Requires to purchase a tubular K-member
Highest cost
Requires tapping into engine oil system
STS
I don't like it. So this is a kit I don't want to hear about.
Custom In-house Installs
This car is with me in Germany so I will have to do the install.
If there are other recommendation, I will here them out. I would need either a website or e-mail address to get more info on the recommendation.
ATI Procharger P-1SC or D-1SC
8-rib requires ATI Damper Upgrade
Some cutting required to fit intercoolers
MagnaCharger M112
Requires cutting of hood and under windshield sheetmetal for clearance
Turbo Technology Single T-76
Requires cutting of sheetmetal near window wash tank and a smaller tank
Requires tapping into engine oil system
Aluminzied steel exhaust tubing
Ohio Forced Induction Single T-76
Requires tapping into engine oil system
Exhaust tubing routed high around engine with high underhood temps
Speed Inc. Coming soon Twin GT35R DBB Turbo
Requires to purchase a tubular K-member
Highest cost
Requires tapping into engine oil system
STS
I don't like it. So this is a kit I don't want to hear about.
Custom In-house Installs
This car is with me in Germany so I will have to do the install.
If there are other recommendation, I will here them out. I would need either a website or e-mail address to get more info on the recommendation.
10-14-2006, 08:41 AM
#2
TECH Fanatic
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Easiest all around kit for install/tuninig & bang for the buck IMHO is the ATI P-1SC or D-1SC series ProCharger. I did alot of research myself before starting my last project and found the ProCharger was the best route for me. At the time so many people were getting screwed by all the promises from these "turbo" companies.
Finally it looks like there may be some light at the end of the tunnel with some respected companies building these kits but if done right it can be quite a bit more fab work and pretty $$$ compared to the SC route...ATI has been around for a very long time and makes a quality product...JMO
Finally it looks like there may be some light at the end of the tunnel with some respected companies building these kits but if done right it can be quite a bit more fab work and pretty $$$ compared to the SC route...ATI has been around for a very long time and makes a quality product...JMO
10-14-2006, 09:39 AM
#4
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No cutting with the ATI unless you do a FMIC. The stock twins bolt up to the bottom just fine! Unless you are planning to run big amounts of boost the 6-rib set-up will work for most applications under 10 psi. Are you going to tune it yourself?
Trending Topics
BOSS APPROVED!
10-14-2006, 09:02 PM
#9
Don't kid yourself, there is no such thing as bolt on FI unless you stay low boost (5psi or less). If you are really going to stay low boost, you might as well just go n/a (stroker, heads, cam). Any more boost and you need fuel, tuning, intercooler, pcv mods, and other stuff I'm not thinking of right now. Just do your research and decided how much stuff you want to pay for and do. If you don't know alot about FI going in, you better be ready to learn or pay someone who does...
Oh yeah, the ATI kits are probably the easiest most straight forward bolt ons except for tapping the oil pan. That is not hard to do either.
Oh yeah, the ATI kits are probably the easiest most straight forward bolt ons except for tapping the oil pan. That is not hard to do either.
10-14-2006, 10:36 PM
#11
Originally Posted by enginjoe
Oh yeah, the ATI kits are probably the easiest most straight forward bolt ons except for tapping the oil pan. That is not hard to do either.
10-14-2006, 10:37 PM
#12
Here is a list of items that I recently put together for building up the chassis prior to adding the horsepower. People are always asking the question of whether to go with a head and cam package, or go with a supercharger or turbocharger. There is no way you are to match the power of an ATI ProCharger with a head and cam package unless you use a pretty radical camshaft. Nitrous oxide could be used instead of going the forced induction route, with very good results at a fraction of the cost. A cold air kit would be required if you elect to use nitrous oxide instead of going the forced induction (ATI ProCharger) route. The ATI ProChargers come with a K&N cone filter. With forced induction, such as the ATI ProCharger, the power is always going to be there when you want it, with no nitrous bottles to constantly refill. A turbocharger could be used instead of an ATI ProCharger, but I am not convinced that the turbo kits currently out on the market will stand the test of time. TurboChargers go through extreme heat cycles, which can fracture the turbo housing mounts.
With the items listed below, your car would be quite capable of routinely running low eleven second 1/4 mile times, or faster, when combined with the M/T Street radial rear tires.
Everyone has their opinions on what is the best package, and here is mine.
1. Subframe Connectors - Absolutely necessary to keep your F Body from twisting and stretching. I have seen too many of these cars lose their door to fender gaps from having gone too long without subframe connectors. Subframe connectors will make the car handle better, you'll get fewer squeaks and the car will get better traction.
2. Torque Arm - BMR, Global West and Spohn all make torque arms that relocate the front mount off of the transmission by relocating the front mount back behind the transmission. The relocation of the front mount relieves the stress from the tailshaft of the transmission that the torque arm places on it, as a result of trying to contain the rear-end and it's rotational stresses. The stock torque arm is a stamped piece of sheetmetal that has broken apart for many people, and it sometimes takes out the driveshaft with it when it goes. By relocating the front mount of the torque arm behind the transmission, the geometry of the rear suspension becomes much better and really aids in hooking up the rear suspension. While replacing the torque arm, check the transmission mount, as the stock torque arm places a huge load on the mount, and the mount breaks quite often when using the factory torque arm. The adjustability of these aftermarket torque arms allows the user to adjust the pinion angle of the rear suspension which aids in finding traction.
3. Moser 12 bolt or 9 inch - Sooner or later the weak 7.5" Chevy S-10 derived 10 bolt is going to break. I wouldn't waste any money into attempting to build up the 10 bolt, it just doesn't work. There isn't one strong point to the stocker. For those of you with a six speed transmission, the 10 bolt has broken on many M6 cars with stock power. Expect the worse to happen... 3:73 gears in the Moser rear-end is a good compromise, especially when adding a lot of power to the engine. I prefer the Moser 9 inch as the way Moser has the torque arm bolted to the rear-end is much better. The Moser 12 bolt uses four short bolts to fasten the torque arm. These bolts have to be loc-tited, and they still must be checked frequently to make sure they stay tight. The Moser 9 inch uses the OEM way on using two long bolts to fasten the torque arm, and they stay tight.
4. Driveshaft - The stock GM driveshaft have broken for many enthusiast, both the steel and the 3.0" aluminum GM driveshafts are fairly weak. I recommend an aftermarket 3.5" aluminum driveshaft with a 1350 Yoke with a 1350 U Joint. Combined with the Moser 12 bolt or 9 inch with their supplied 1350 yoke, you will have a strong drivetrain. I sell the PST 3.5" aluminum driveshaft, which has a 1200hp rating. I have not seen one break.
5. Clutch and pressure plate - I recommend the Spec Stage 3 clutch and pressure plate, or the newer Spec Stage 3+. Expect some chatter for the first 500 miles, then it will be pretty smooth. I would also add the '01-'02 slave cylinder for the older models, and do the "drill mod" to the master cylinder. Do a search for the drill mod, and you will see what it entails.
At this point I believe the suspension is capable off supporting a lot of horsepower, and you can go straight to item 14.
For those of you who are dragstrip bound, I would also add a few additional items.
6. Adjustable lower control arms - The aftermarket lower control arms are much stouter, and will not flex like the factory lower control arms. Going with adjustable ones will allow the user to center the rear end in the wheelwell. The stock rear end position from the factory tends to be .5" towards the rear of the car. You really won't notice it until larger diameter tires are installed.
7. Lower control arm relocation brackets - Lower control arm relocation brackets are meant to be used when the car has been lowered, which alters the angle of the lower control arms. We have found that the relocation brackets also help in getting traction in non lowered cars. We use the weld on style that BMR offers.
8. Panhard bar - The factory pan hard bar is pretty flimsy and additional traction can be found by replacing the factory pan hard bar with a heavier duty aftermarket bar. The rear in these cars tends to sit closer to the right side, and by purchasing an adjustable pan hard bar, the rear-end can be centered in the body.
9. Strut Tower Brace - Eliminate flexing in the front end by adding an aftermarket strut tower brace. You will also notice that the car will handle better with a strut tower brace.
10. Battery box relocation - By relocating the battery to the trunk, you will remove a lot of weight off the front of the car and place the weight behind the rear-end, where it will aid in traction. The car will also be able to handle better with the weight relocation.
11. Rear coil spring air bags - By experimenting with adding more air to the right air bag than to the left one, better off the line traction can be found.
12. Adjustable shocks and front coil over springs - We use the Hal QA1 12 way adjustable shocks on our cars. It is easy to adjust these shocks for street use, and then readjust them for strip use by simply rotating the 12 way adjustable dial. The Hal QA1 front coil over springs allows the front end height to easily be adjusted.
13. K member - By replacing the front K member and upper and lower control arms with light weight aftermarket tubular ones, a lot of weight is removed from the front suspension. Since front end weight is removed, better off the line traction and better handling will occur. We have had good success with the BMR parts, and combined with the Hal QA1 shocks and coil over front springs, gives the car a much better chance of getting traction on the starting line.
14. Headers and cat back exhaust - Everyone has their favorites, but we have grown very fond of Hooker and Kooks headers, and the Hooker and Magnaflow Cat Back exhaust systems.
Hooker ceramic coated headers and the Kook's stainless steel headers fit very well, with excellent ground clearance. The ceramic coatings go a long way towards keeping the exhaust temps in the pipes, keeping the engine bay cooler and improving internal exhaust scavenging. These two brands of headers will give you 2.5" more in ground clearance compared to SLP headers. I recommend the Kooks headers for max effort cars. They cost more, but they will produce more horsepower.
The Hooker and Magnaflow cat back exhaust systems give these cars a good muscular sound that will not drown out your stereo while driving down the road. The exhaust tubing is larger than the stock tubing and is mandrel bent, for better exhaust flow.
For those of you who want it loud. If you are looking for an exhaust system that will annoy everyone around you, the two above exhaust systems are not for you. The SLP "Loud Mouth" cat back is a good system for those of you who want to be noticed. When we have one of these cars on my dyno with a loud mouth exhaust system, everyone around our area can hear the car!
15. ATI ProCharger D-1SC eight rib supercharger - Simply the best and easiest way to get 450 to 500 rwhp out of your car in my opinion, when combined with headers and a good cat back exhaust system. The car will still see great part throttle gas mileage, overall driveability will still be excellent, and the power is always there when you want it. At 8 pounds of boost, the car will be very dependable, and with the twin high flow air to air intercoolers, unleaded premium is all you need to use. I recommend the ATI ProCharger D-1SC "tuner" kit, as the D-1SC can handle future mods much better than the P-1SC. You will need 42 lb or 60 lb fuel injectors, a 255 litre HP in tank fuel pump, and chassis dyno tuning with the "tuner" kit.
Hopefully this list will help you in your quest for having a quick car! Bob
With the items listed below, your car would be quite capable of routinely running low eleven second 1/4 mile times, or faster, when combined with the M/T Street radial rear tires.
Everyone has their opinions on what is the best package, and here is mine.
1. Subframe Connectors - Absolutely necessary to keep your F Body from twisting and stretching. I have seen too many of these cars lose their door to fender gaps from having gone too long without subframe connectors. Subframe connectors will make the car handle better, you'll get fewer squeaks and the car will get better traction.
2. Torque Arm - BMR, Global West and Spohn all make torque arms that relocate the front mount off of the transmission by relocating the front mount back behind the transmission. The relocation of the front mount relieves the stress from the tailshaft of the transmission that the torque arm places on it, as a result of trying to contain the rear-end and it's rotational stresses. The stock torque arm is a stamped piece of sheetmetal that has broken apart for many people, and it sometimes takes out the driveshaft with it when it goes. By relocating the front mount of the torque arm behind the transmission, the geometry of the rear suspension becomes much better and really aids in hooking up the rear suspension. While replacing the torque arm, check the transmission mount, as the stock torque arm places a huge load on the mount, and the mount breaks quite often when using the factory torque arm. The adjustability of these aftermarket torque arms allows the user to adjust the pinion angle of the rear suspension which aids in finding traction.
3. Moser 12 bolt or 9 inch - Sooner or later the weak 7.5" Chevy S-10 derived 10 bolt is going to break. I wouldn't waste any money into attempting to build up the 10 bolt, it just doesn't work. There isn't one strong point to the stocker. For those of you with a six speed transmission, the 10 bolt has broken on many M6 cars with stock power. Expect the worse to happen... 3:73 gears in the Moser rear-end is a good compromise, especially when adding a lot of power to the engine. I prefer the Moser 9 inch as the way Moser has the torque arm bolted to the rear-end is much better. The Moser 12 bolt uses four short bolts to fasten the torque arm. These bolts have to be loc-tited, and they still must be checked frequently to make sure they stay tight. The Moser 9 inch uses the OEM way on using two long bolts to fasten the torque arm, and they stay tight.
4. Driveshaft - The stock GM driveshaft have broken for many enthusiast, both the steel and the 3.0" aluminum GM driveshafts are fairly weak. I recommend an aftermarket 3.5" aluminum driveshaft with a 1350 Yoke with a 1350 U Joint. Combined with the Moser 12 bolt or 9 inch with their supplied 1350 yoke, you will have a strong drivetrain. I sell the PST 3.5" aluminum driveshaft, which has a 1200hp rating. I have not seen one break.
5. Clutch and pressure plate - I recommend the Spec Stage 3 clutch and pressure plate, or the newer Spec Stage 3+. Expect some chatter for the first 500 miles, then it will be pretty smooth. I would also add the '01-'02 slave cylinder for the older models, and do the "drill mod" to the master cylinder. Do a search for the drill mod, and you will see what it entails.
At this point I believe the suspension is capable off supporting a lot of horsepower, and you can go straight to item 14.
For those of you who are dragstrip bound, I would also add a few additional items.
6. Adjustable lower control arms - The aftermarket lower control arms are much stouter, and will not flex like the factory lower control arms. Going with adjustable ones will allow the user to center the rear end in the wheelwell. The stock rear end position from the factory tends to be .5" towards the rear of the car. You really won't notice it until larger diameter tires are installed.
7. Lower control arm relocation brackets - Lower control arm relocation brackets are meant to be used when the car has been lowered, which alters the angle of the lower control arms. We have found that the relocation brackets also help in getting traction in non lowered cars. We use the weld on style that BMR offers.
8. Panhard bar - The factory pan hard bar is pretty flimsy and additional traction can be found by replacing the factory pan hard bar with a heavier duty aftermarket bar. The rear in these cars tends to sit closer to the right side, and by purchasing an adjustable pan hard bar, the rear-end can be centered in the body.
9. Strut Tower Brace - Eliminate flexing in the front end by adding an aftermarket strut tower brace. You will also notice that the car will handle better with a strut tower brace.
10. Battery box relocation - By relocating the battery to the trunk, you will remove a lot of weight off the front of the car and place the weight behind the rear-end, where it will aid in traction. The car will also be able to handle better with the weight relocation.
11. Rear coil spring air bags - By experimenting with adding more air to the right air bag than to the left one, better off the line traction can be found.
12. Adjustable shocks and front coil over springs - We use the Hal QA1 12 way adjustable shocks on our cars. It is easy to adjust these shocks for street use, and then readjust them for strip use by simply rotating the 12 way adjustable dial. The Hal QA1 front coil over springs allows the front end height to easily be adjusted.
13. K member - By replacing the front K member and upper and lower control arms with light weight aftermarket tubular ones, a lot of weight is removed from the front suspension. Since front end weight is removed, better off the line traction and better handling will occur. We have had good success with the BMR parts, and combined with the Hal QA1 shocks and coil over front springs, gives the car a much better chance of getting traction on the starting line.
14. Headers and cat back exhaust - Everyone has their favorites, but we have grown very fond of Hooker and Kooks headers, and the Hooker and Magnaflow Cat Back exhaust systems.
Hooker ceramic coated headers and the Kook's stainless steel headers fit very well, with excellent ground clearance. The ceramic coatings go a long way towards keeping the exhaust temps in the pipes, keeping the engine bay cooler and improving internal exhaust scavenging. These two brands of headers will give you 2.5" more in ground clearance compared to SLP headers. I recommend the Kooks headers for max effort cars. They cost more, but they will produce more horsepower.
The Hooker and Magnaflow cat back exhaust systems give these cars a good muscular sound that will not drown out your stereo while driving down the road. The exhaust tubing is larger than the stock tubing and is mandrel bent, for better exhaust flow.
For those of you who want it loud. If you are looking for an exhaust system that will annoy everyone around you, the two above exhaust systems are not for you. The SLP "Loud Mouth" cat back is a good system for those of you who want to be noticed. When we have one of these cars on my dyno with a loud mouth exhaust system, everyone around our area can hear the car!
15. ATI ProCharger D-1SC eight rib supercharger - Simply the best and easiest way to get 450 to 500 rwhp out of your car in my opinion, when combined with headers and a good cat back exhaust system. The car will still see great part throttle gas mileage, overall driveability will still be excellent, and the power is always there when you want it. At 8 pounds of boost, the car will be very dependable, and with the twin high flow air to air intercoolers, unleaded premium is all you need to use. I recommend the ATI ProCharger D-1SC "tuner" kit, as the D-1SC can handle future mods much better than the P-1SC. You will need 42 lb or 60 lb fuel injectors, a 255 litre HP in tank fuel pump, and chassis dyno tuning with the "tuner" kit.
Hopefully this list will help you in your quest for having a quick car! Bob
10-15-2006, 01:49 AM
#13
Why is it everytime I ask a specific question or opinionon this forum, I get talked to like I am a frickin' newbie. If you look at my sig, this is not my first rodeo. If you knew my setup before, I was running 11.6s and dynoing 464whp on a stock motor with 150 shot of nitrous. I just got sick of the bottle running out. You are also assuming that I am going to use this setup for drags which I didn't state what I was going to use it for. I know that other components need to be installed to car to support the goals I want. I even stated that in the first part of this thread. I am aircraft technician by trader and a gearhead by hobby. I don't need everything Mister Know-It-All come to these threads and "honor" me by giving their bountiful knowledge. I have done my homework and research on everything I need to do. I just wanted to hear from the guys that have done the installs on these kit and have their opinions.
I am sorry for the harsh response, but I am tired of being talked to like I am a dumbass, idiot, newbie, or punk kid (I am 29 BTW.)
I am sorry for the harsh response, but I am tired of being talked to like I am a dumbass, idiot, newbie, or punk kid (I am 29 BTW.)
10-15-2006, 06:59 AM
#14
ATI Procharger P-1SC or D-1SC
8-rib requires ATI Damper Upgrade
Some cutting required to fit intercoolers
I'm sorry, I had no idea you had the experience you do. When you posted that cutting is required to fit the intercoolers, I assumed you were a novice. Bob
8-rib requires ATI Damper Upgrade
Some cutting required to fit intercoolers
I'm sorry, I had no idea you had the experience you do. When you posted that cutting is required to fit the intercoolers, I assumed you were a novice. Bob
10-15-2006, 07:25 AM
#15
Staging Lane
Join Date: Jul 2006
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all turbo systems will require tapping into oil system get the ati its alot better than the vortech . DONT use hooker headers i just put a set on a trans am and i had to cut the factory k member so the driver side would even bolt up in my opinion they are junk. and to what exotic said im wandering why you need to use lower control arm relocators if you have an adjustable torque arm
10-15-2006, 07:46 AM
#16
Originally Posted by STP
all turbo systems will require tapping into oil system get the ati its alot better than the vortech . DONT use hooker headers i just put a set on a trans am and i had to cut the factory k member so the driver side would even bolt up in my opinion they are junk. and to what exotic said im wandering why you need to use lower control arm relocators if you have an adjustable torque arm
We have found that by lowering the point that the lower control arm mounts to the rear-end greatly helps the car to plant the tires. Bob
10-15-2006, 08:45 AM
#17
Gold Phoenix,
There is no "best" setup, no matter what anyone says. Like you said, each setup has high points and low points, which must all be considered with the owners goals in mind. With that said, and looking at the goals you posted, I would say the Magnacharger would work perfectly in your application, and meet your desired goals. Yes, it does require cutting to the underside of the hood, and the underside of the cowl, but the cutting is minor, and if you like can be made completely invisible with a little body work.
I have as much experience as anybody with all forms of F/I cars, and N/A cars(literally thousands of cars) and for street performance/stoplight to stoplight acceleration, the Magnuson cars have proven over and over again that they are one of the best choices out there.
I noticed you're in Indy, why don't you skip all of the sales pitches, and personal opinions, and take a ride to Decatur to see for yourself? you're welcome to come up and drive my car anytime you like
** Sorry, just re-read that you and the car in question are in Germany, but the offer stands, if you have a buddy or somebody you trust here in Indiana, send them my way**
Ed
There is no "best" setup, no matter what anyone says. Like you said, each setup has high points and low points, which must all be considered with the owners goals in mind. With that said, and looking at the goals you posted, I would say the Magnacharger would work perfectly in your application, and meet your desired goals. Yes, it does require cutting to the underside of the hood, and the underside of the cowl, but the cutting is minor, and if you like can be made completely invisible with a little body work.
I have as much experience as anybody with all forms of F/I cars, and N/A cars(literally thousands of cars) and for street performance/stoplight to stoplight acceleration, the Magnuson cars have proven over and over again that they are one of the best choices out there.
I noticed you're in Indy, why don't you skip all of the sales pitches, and personal opinions, and take a ride to Decatur to see for yourself? you're welcome to come up and drive my car anytime you like
** Sorry, just re-read that you and the car in question are in Germany, but the offer stands, if you have a buddy or somebody you trust here in Indiana, send them my way**
Ed
10-15-2006, 09:55 AM
#18
Originally Posted by Exotic Performance Plus
ATI Procharger P-1SC or D-1SC
8-rib requires ATI Damper Upgrade
Some cutting required to fit intercoolers
I'm sorry, I had no idea you had the experience you do. When you posted that cutting is required to fit the intercoolers, I assumed you were a novice. Bob
8-rib requires ATI Damper Upgrade
Some cutting required to fit intercoolers
I'm sorry, I had no idea you had the experience you do. When you posted that cutting is required to fit the intercoolers, I assumed you were a novice. Bob
headers.