parish8

iTrader: (6)

right now i am running 850 comp lifters, 921springs, stock rockers and some kind of hardened pushrods. at a little over 20psi i seem to be geting valve float and from what i understand that is to be expected with the parts that i have.

my cam specs are 595/590 234/232 115+1 and i have afr225heads.

i am looking to upgrade my valve train. Twn TrboCE posted this in another thread.

"I spin my hydr. motor to 7800 with no valve float. That's at 27+ psi and with more timing than your running. When we ran the 921 springs they had to be shimmed to get enough seat and open pressure. I'm now running a dual gold spring that TEA uses. No shimming needed.
Another issue might be the stock lifters. There not designed for high rpm and high spring pressure (boost). They might be bleading down. We were told that they could collapse in these conditions. I run Morels right now."

would this be a good way to go? morels and the TEA springs? are stock rockers ok with that? i dont really want to spend $2000 on valvetrain. what are the TEA dual gold springs? if not those springs what is a good spring for what i want to do?

what about a solid lifter. what are the benifits? what are the drawbacks?

while i am in there should i consider a diferent cam? i dont know much at all about cams. i dont want to kill the low end or make it much more lumpy than it is so should i stick with what i have?

qqwqeqwrqwqtq

Cam seems -ok-, I've been running between 180-200lbs closed and 400-430 open on hyd roller turbo LS1/LT1 motors seeing 7,400+ with stock lifters (and stock rockers on the LS1's).

parish8

iTrader: (6)

with how much boost? from what you are saying i might get away with just some springs? is there a spring that i can throw in there and get those presures?

parish8

iTrader: (6)

here are the specs on the 921's that i have. they probably have 10k miles on them and at least 100 track passes. are they posiably just wore out?

O.D.: 1.300
I.D.: 0.655
Seat Load: 135@ 1.770
Open Load: 400 @ 1.220
Coil Bind: 1.040
Rate(lbs./in.): 408
TitaniumRetainer: 754
SteelRetainer: N/A
Cup/Seat: 4695
Shims: 4753

anyone know the specs on the patriot golds? i have a brand new set of them laying here.

nick97ta

iTrader: (3)

I would say you need new springs, you seat and open pressures are low. you need to think about if you pushing 20 psi into the engine and you valve has 2" of surface area, that would be 40 psi less spring pressure holding the valve closed. that would make your springs act like thay only had 95lbs at seat and your valve could bounce. but to tell you what spring to go with I don't know.

V6 Bird

iTrader: (15)

180psi on the seat is what you need to shoot for. Alot of folks shoot for shimming the spring til its within .050 of coil bind, if memory serves me correctly thats the numbers used. Someone correct me if im wrong. Its early!

TwnTrboCE

iTrader: (43)

I would start by shimming the springs you have. I had to with my 921's. Cheapest and easiest way to possibly solve your problem.
I got the heads done by TEA. I'm not sure whos they are but they needed no shimming. There gold duals.

qqwqeqwrqwqtq

We use an upgraded spring (upgraded from a 921), that we get from AFR. Up to 24psi boost so far.

IMO it is not effected by boost pressure as the compression cycle is starting as the intake valve is closing, easily eclipsing intake pressure. I believe the exhaust valve bounces from backpressure,as the intake cycle is starting as the exhaust valve is closing and with the intake pressure being much lower than backpressure it does little to help close the exhaust valve.

parish8

iTrader: (6)

this is my getto valve spring tool. this is a new patriot gold at 1.77" wich is the closed rating for the comp 921's. the factory rating for the 921's is only 135lbs at the height. i cant wait to get a couple of the used 921's off the head to do the same test on.

nothing would make me happier than to just slap a set of springs on here and be able to get another 500rpm and 2-3psi out of it.

NA$TY-TA

iTrader: (21)

Parish FYI when we thought we had valve float in my car it wasnt the springs.. it was the back pressure.... not saying thats your problem... my point is i had thought it was springs at first so we pulled my patriot doubles..... ordered a set of 921's..... had them both tested by two different shops not telling them the brands and the Patriot Golds came out a better spring at both shops.....more seat and open.

Kyle

nick97ta

iTrader: (3)

the intake valve closing is just after BDC start of compression stroke, before any pressure is created. if it did not then you could get flow going back in the intake, I would think. I may be wrong?


I see what you mean on the exhaust because it can be 3x the intake pressure.but if I am correct on the intake side than both can have a chance to bounces from pressure on the back of the valve?

parish8

iTrader: (6)

i am going to start a thread about valve springs in the internal section i think. i am confused.

i measured the installed spring height on of the 225's. i also checked a stock 6.0 head. they are both 1.90" thats from the head to the bottom of the retainer. the bottom cup is .055" and there was a shim on the 921's at .025 so that puts the actual spring right at 1.820

if i compress the 921's to that height i end up with 112lbs.

i have a set of slightly used patriot golds. if i compress one of them to that height i end up with 121lbs(remember this is with a .025 shim)

from playing around with my getto spring compresor it looks like i would need about .200(total) shim to get to 180lbs of seat presure with the 921's

if the coil bind of the 921's is 1.04 and i shim so full lift is within .06 of that my min spring height would be 1.10. my current spring height is 1.82", deduct .600 for lift and i am at 1.22" that leaves me with a max of 0.12" more shim or a total of 0.145" shim.

that wont get me to 180lbs of seat presure. maybe 160lb's.

am i doing this right?
is there a set of springs i can just buy and toss in there and have what i need?
doesn't 180lb's of seat presure seem like a lot considering i only have 112 now?
what kind of spring life and other valve train parts life am i looking at if i bump up the seat presure that much?
would the extra 9lbs from the patriots be worth slaping in there?

since the patriots did test out a little better than the 921's i am considering something a little more moderate. maybe a .050-.075shim with the patriots. that would probably get me up around 140lbs of seat presure. only problem here is i dont know the coil bind height on the patriots. i guess i could try and fully compress one and see where it is at.

i need more help!

NA$TY-TA

iTrader: (21)

Well im at least glad you could use the info i gace ya...... i really dont know either........

Ill keep an eye out in that section or post up your findings back in here....

Kyle

parish8

iTrader: (6)

i just tried the patriots with an extra .060 shim. that other shim was really a .030 so it is a total of .090shim. that took the seat presure to 143lb's.

thats a prety big step up from the 112 i had with the other springs. i am going to give it a try and if it still floats then shim them right up to the bind limit.

parish8

iTrader: (6)

i went ahead and checked all of the slightly used patriots. with the shim they check at between 139lbs and 145lbs. i kept them in order so i know wich are stronger. should the stronger springs be on the intake or exhaust side?

i also compresed one down to 1.16" (1.82" old spring height - .060 for shim - .600 for lift) and there is 2 spaces of .075" between the widest coils. from what i under stand that is pleanty of space to not worry about coil bind?

obZidian

iTrader: (2)

huh? lol

well, it would seem logical to have the stronger springs on your intake side since you have both higher lift and duration. But the difference seems quite small also, compared to your cam specs, but to have a peace of mind, i would, at least, put those on the intake side...

nick97ta

iTrader: (3)

from what INTMD8 has posted I would put the stronger springs on the exhaust.

qqwqeqwrqwqtq

145lbs is an improvement, but still rather weak.

parish8

iTrader: (6)

i could shim them more but i have some people telling me the stock style lifters wont hold 180lbs of seat presure. i also have a couple of people telling me if i shim to the point of only .05 from bind that the spring life will be very short.

if this doesn't get me the extra 500rpm and 2psi that i want then i will step up to the morels and whatever spring it takes to get me right where i need to be.

qqwqeqwrqwqtq

[QUOTE=parish8]i could shim them more but i have some people telling me the stock style lifters wont hold 180lbs of seat presure. i also have a couple of people telling me if i shim to the point of only .05 from bind that the spring life will be very short.
QUOTE]

Well, if a stock lifter can take 400+ open loads I see no reason why 180 on the seat would hurt it. IMO high spring pressure and a valvetrain that's under control is more reliable than weak springs and valvefloat/bounce that hammers everything.

I've been running nearly 200lbs seat pressure on stock lifters this entire season without failure, though I was advised by many that it wasn't a good idea so maybe I should just consider myself lucky.