Gears & Axles - 9 vs dana 60

im in tough possition im about to get a rear end but cant really decide on what to go with the ford 9 inch or the new dana 60 what is the big difference on them i herd that the 9 is a little sronger is it true, my car is a camaro ss m6 cam, bolts on ,nitrous im thinking on going to the track probably twice a month and leave hard off the whole every time help me please :engarde:

The 60 is a little bit heavier than a 9" but is definitely stronger. If I ever get a rearend I'm getting a 60.

i'm in the process of getting a rear too, i'm going to get the dana 60 as well

The Dana 60 is stronger, the both use close to the same amount of power to drive even though the Dana is heavier. 9" is easy to change ratios on and can be built on a bench, have more than one center ready (one track, one street), and there are tons of ratios. Drag only and with a set ratio the 60 is hard to beat, all around the 9" is a great choice.

thanxs mzoomora for the info, are they both easy to install do they just bolt in or am i going to weld or do other things im planing on puting it my self anyone has other opininon about this 2 rear end need a lot off info on then cause plan on getting one by this week thanxs 4 the info

No welding is required on a Moser 12 bolt or 9 inch. The Moser 9 inch is a very tough rear, and is ready to ship two days after the order is taken. Bob

my s60 was a direct bolt in, very easy install, had it for about 1k miles and love it.

same here except i've had mine about 200 miles.

No welding is required on a Moser 12 bolt or 9 inch. The Moser 9 inch is a very tough rear, and is ready to ship two days after the order is taken. Bob


Also the 9 inch ships in 2 pieces that cust down on shipping. There is just more options for the 9 inch right now, but that doesn't mean that there won't be for the dana in the future.

I have helped with a couple of dana's now and they are O.K. The 9 inch is just easier to work on. Just my .02

thanxs everyone u guys did help me alot i dint no nothing about the dana 60, with ur help i could choose rear end to get cause i could get the dana way cheaper than the 9 same warranty and everything thanxs

The D60 is the same basic design as the 12 bolt, and even the 7.5" stocker. It's just a bigger version of the same. I like (and just installed) the Ford 9 because it's a totally different design with alot aspects that are better. I built mine from scratch, learning as I went, and every step of the way I was thinking "huh. . . I wonder why the other guys didn't do that." Build one yourself and you'll understand. . .

Mike

so mike how do u like ur 9 inch sofar do u regret it or ur happy with it

Had a couple of Dana's years back for a big block car. Strong as hell. Have 9 inch now on my F-Body. Don't think you can go wrong either way.

so mike how do u like ur 9 inch sofar do u regret it or ur happy with it

I really like it so far. Once I sorted through the 3 channel ABS (fab'd my own), u-joint issues (1310 x Ford Special), and gear issues (had a faulty set of gears) ahead of time, I assembled it and it bolted right in and worked perfectly from the test drive on. This rear end is so easy to work on, I was kinda' dissappointed that the experience didn't last longer. . .

Mike

You guys need to contact Danny Miller at (636-861-3900) he has one of the baddest 9" housing and deals going they. Not that the 60 is'nt a good choise but it is a lot heavier rotating mass will kill ET more than just average weight.

Thats true, but a 9" is less efficient so it is almost a wash.

You guys need to contact Danny Miller at (636-861-3900) he has one of the baddest 9" housing and deals going they. Not that the 60 is'nt a good choise but it is a lot heavier rotating mass will kill ET more than just average weight.

His shop is 5 minutes from my house. I stopped in one day to ask about pricing, and ended up getting a 30 minute shop tour.

hey ss camaro 993 whats the nam eof the shop

Driveline Solutions

You guys need to contact Danny Miller at (636-861-3900) he has one of the baddest 9" housing and deals going they. Not that the 60 is'nt a good choise but it is a lot heavier rotating mass will kill ET more than just average weight.


The heavy rotating mass on a D60 is really a non-issue, I am a mopar guy & have alot of exp with the D60 & 8 3/4 mopar rear. Even though the D60 is very heavy and the mopar 8 3/4 is pretty efficient there is absolutely no ET difference between the two rears, on the same car, on the same day. There have been a couple of back to back tests done on this and the D60 actually showed a very slight mph advantage in the 1/4mi. In other words the D60 is extremely efficient, & it happens to be the strongest common rear-end that is still light enough to be practical in a car.

thanxs alot u guys, u guys been help full now i no either or will b good right? well thanxs and ill let u guys no what i got cause i could get the d60 like 300 dollars cheaper than the 9, same warranty and everything and they both just bolt in just that they say that with the d60 im going 2 need to weld the sway bar is it true or doest bolt in. do they both just bolt in ?

thanxs alot u guys, u guys been help full now i no either or will b good right? well thanxs and ill let u guys no what i got cause i could get the d60 like 300 dollars cheaper than the 9, same warranty and everything and they both just bolt in just that they say that with the d60 im going 2 need to weld the sway bar is it true or doest bolt in. do they both just bolt in ?

I would have said you would have to get sway bar brackets welded in (or at least get the Spohn kit that bolts on), but after opening up my Strange 12-bolt package today, I found that Strange had already welded the sway bar brackets in place. I don't know if they are doing the same for the S60, but I was pleasantly surprised. Hopefully they extend the courtesy to those rears as well.

thanxs alot meentss02 hope they come weld it but if not fuck it ill just get the spohn kit that bolts on. hey one more thing DOES THE ALLUMINUM COVER HELPS OUT THE REAR END HERD SOME ONE SAID THAT TRUE OR JUST 4 LOOKS THANXS

My Strange S60 had everything in place. I ordered mine with the backing plates on and everything. Add fluid and bolt it. I helper would have been nice as that thing was fucking heavy. I actually rolled it of the pallet and onto my floor tranny jack.

One thing that you should know is that the S60 requires a shorter driveshaft than stock. Not sure about the 9". When I priced it against the Strange 12 bolt, the S60 was cheaper but once you figure in the new driveshaft and the extra freight from the weight diffence, it's a wash.

I am happy to say that mine only makes a very faint howl at 65 under no load. Very quiet compared to any aftermarket rear that I have heard. I love it.

One thing that you should know is that the S60 requires a shorter driveshaft than stock. Not sure about the 9".

With the Ford 9" long yoke, you can use the stock driveshaft.

so if the 60 is stronger... and the 9 is used in drag cars all the way up to top fuel... is there really any physical reason besides ease of gear change that differentiates the 2?

is there really any physical reason besides ease of gear change that differentiates the 2?

The 9" has a 3rd bearing on the rear side of the pinion. This supports the pinion on both sides instead of cantilever. The pinion is less likely to flex and separate from the ring gear.

Another advantage of the 9" is the many, many gear ratio's offered. The 9" has probably 3x more ratio's available than the others.

Also, there's more than just the removable center that makes gear changes easier. . . The shimmed pinion support helps a ton also. No more pressing bearings on and off the pinion to change shims.

so if the 60 is stronger... and the 9 is used in drag cars all the way up to top fuel... is there really any physical reason besides ease of gear change that differentiates the 2?
Top fuel does not use a 9", they use specially designed rears that resembles a 9" in design but is much stronger and larger.
Like engineer mike said, there is no need to remove the pinion bearing to shim the pinion depth, there are no carrier shims- just spanners to adjust, you can build it on the bench instead of under the car or having to remove the complete rear.

i have a strange D60 its a huge rear and i love it other than it howls like a mofo on the highway

With the Ford 9" long yoke, you can use the stock driveshaft.

Very true, but if the car is going to be launching hard, I do suggest a new driveshaft as the stock ones to break on occasion. Bob

Dana 60 are the strongest hands down, but they are tough on the fingers if you build your own. 9" for is more user friendly due to it being modular. and like what was said before, you can have your "street" gear or "strip" gear ready to bolt on if you have two center section built. and they have a HUGE after market.

Dana 60 are the strongest hands down. . .

Are you sure?

Here's an interesting comparison of the 2:

http://www.sunrayengineering.com/nine.html

And another:

http://www.truehi9.com/gears2.html

Cliff's notes:
- Ford 9" pinion is significantly larger than a D60, closer to the size of a D80.
- Ford 9" ring gear is thicker.
- Ford 9" pinion is supported on both sides.
- Ford 9" has greater vertical pinion offset, giving it more teeth in mesh.
- Ford 9" pinion teeth are at a steeper angle, putting more teeth in mesh.
- Ford 9" has thicker teeth.
- Ford 9" is lighter than D60.
- Ford 9" main caps are larger and thicker than D60.

And, all these don't even mention how much easier it is to build and work on a 9".

Mike

The 9" is soundin pretty good.

The 9" is soundin pretty good.

If it wasn't for a potential issue with the torque arm mount interfering with the tunnel, I would have gone this way...the 9" is a stout rear. The posis will still be a weak link, however.

Very true, but if the car is going to be launching hard, I do suggest a new driveshaft as the stock ones to break on occasion. Bob


Wasn't aware they stk length DS could work w/ a 9". That just sold me right there as I want to keep my ACPT CFDS. :D

mine had the sway bar brakets welded on as well

Is anybody running the 9" or the S60 with a lowered car. I heard that you can't run a 9" with a lowered car. Any truth to this rumor?????

Is anybody running the 9" or the S60 with a lowered car. I heard that you can't run a 9" with a lowered car. Any truth to this rumor?????

You can, but you'll need to do some clearancing (the torque arm mount mainly). Go on to Speed Inc's website, and look up INTMD8's car...there is a whole section of the website dedicated to it with pictures. You'll see pics of the underside when it was being painted...pay close attention to the clearancing that was done where the torque arm was interfering.

You can, but you'll need to do some clearancing (the torque arm mount mainly). Go on to Speed Inc's website, and look up INTMD8's car...there is a whole section of the website dedicated to it with pictures. You'll see pics of the underside when it was being painted...pay close attention to the clearancing that was done where the torque arm was interfering.

Thanks!!!!!!

I like both the Strange S60 ($2295) and the Moser 9” ($2400 truetrac) but I think the S60 is getting my vote and will be the one i purchase next week. I think you’re getting a little more for your money with the S60 plus you will be able to use your abs brakes (for us with three channel) with the S60 model. I don’t like the idea of ditching my abs brakes.


Only drawback I can see right now is having to shorten your driveshaft with the S60. The S60 is a bit cheaper then the Moser but with the cost of modifying the driveshaft it should be close to being a wash. I have a bit more research to do but I think I’m going with the s60.

http://www.strangeengineering.net/newprod/2006/NewLateFBodyRearendAD1.html (http://www.strangeengineering.net/newprod/2006/NewLateFBodyRearendAD1.html)

. . .plus you will be able to use your abs brakes (for us with three channel) with the S60 model. I don’t like the idea of ditching my abs brakes. . .

I think we saw earlier in the post that the 9" is superior in many ways, and my 3 channel ABS works great on my 9" and was seriously a piece of cake to hook up.

Mike

what are the differences in axle sizes between the two?

Happy with my 12 bolt but between the 2 I'd go 9 inch.

what are the differences in axle sizes between the two?

9" can be upgraded to 35 spline 1.5" to match the 60. Then again both can be had with gun drilled 40 spline as well....all depends on the $$$ you wanna shell.

It seems that both are very comparable as far as weight, strength, power loss, etc. Only differences are that a 9 inch has removable center section (doesn't matter for most people) and Dana is cheaper (if you are smart, you'll get a new driveshaft with either rearend).

Couple questions though:

1. Which rear end is noisier? That is my major issue with 12 bolts...they are SO loud. I've never heard a quiet one.

2. Would a 9 inch be A LOT easier to work on if it got noisy and needed a little adjustment or new gears or something?

I love the S60 I have in my car, and it was much cheaper than a 9" (who doesn't get a new d/s if they are planning on launching the car hard with some power).

1. my s60 isn't loud, atleast to me I don't really hear it at all.

2. Despite what some people say, how much do you really work on your car all alone and have all the tools? It is easy for those that have done it a few times, or have the time and patience, otherwise a gear change costs like 200-250$ parts/labor (atleast in illinois where I go).

Thanks!

Anyone else want to chime in?

BUT IS THIS APPLYING TO ALL AFTERMARKET 9" REARS? IF SO THEN A MOSER 9 FROM BOB OVER AT EPP IS ON ITS WAY TO ME...

------------------------------------------------------
Cliff's notes:
- Ford 9" pinion is significantly larger than a D60, closer to the size of a D80.
- Ford 9" ring gear is thicker.
- Ford 9" pinion is supported on both sides.
- Ford 9" has greater vertical pinion offset, giving it more teeth in mesh.
- Ford 9" pinion teeth are at a steeper angle, putting more teeth in mesh.
- Ford 9" has thicker teeth.
- Ford 9" is lighter than D60.
- Ford 9" main caps are larger and thicker than D60.

And, all these don't even mention how much easier it is to build and work on a 9".

Mike[/QUOTE]

in one word yes, aftermarket 9"s usually have better stronger components and designs

BUT IS THIS APPLYING TO ALL AFTERMARKET 9" REARS? IF SO THEN A MOSER 9 FROM BOB OVER AT EPP IS ON ITS WAY TO ME...

Yes, those are features inherent to the architecture of the 9".

Mike,

Would you consider duplicating your three channel set-up for someone elses 9 inch? I would prefer a 9 inch, but don't want to lose the ABS, and unfortunately, I am not an engineer. I'm sending you a P.M. Thanks!

Is anybody running the 9" or the S60 with a lowered car. I heard that you can't run a 9" with a lowered car. Any truth to this rumor?????
so do you have to mod anything to fit the d60 under a f-body? tq arm or tunnel? what about that sweet ass cover they sell for it are there any issues with clearance with the phr?

The D60 is the same basic design as the 12 bolt, and even the 7.5" stocker. It's just a bigger version of the same. I like (and just installed) the Ford 9 because it's a totally different design with alot aspects that are better. I built mine from scratch, learning as I went, and every step of the way I was thinking "huh. . . I wonder why the other guys didn't do that." Build one yourself and you'll understand. . .

Mike

High speed prolonged driving with a 9inch will build more heat due to the lower pinion placement and more Worm Gear motion of the 9. However how many of you guys cruise at 100+ mph with a 4.10 ratio ? if not the a 9 is as good as any Dana60 except for the fact that when you add in the brackets for the 9 the wieght difference wi thte 60 is about zero or at least was when i swapped from a 9 to a s60 actually lost 2 lbs but that has to do with the TQ arm bracket and other modifications made when the 60 was installed.

hopefully a 3 channel version can be readily available for the 9". till then ill just wait.

so do you have to mod anything to fit the d60 under a f-body? tq arm or tunnel? what about that sweet ass cover they sell for it are there any issues with clearance with the phr?
im lowered with D60 and the "S" cover on it and the sway bar/ PHR clear fine. My BMR non adj. torque arm did rub on the floorboard a little so I had to put the stock one back on.

the drive shaft should not be a factor, cause if your getting a strong rear you should upgrade the drive shaft also!

I love the S60 I have in my car, and it was much cheaper than a 9" (who doesn't get a new d/s if they are planning on launching the car hard with some power).

1. my s60 isn't loud, atleast to me I don't really hear it at all.

2. Despite what some people say, how much do you really work on your car all alone and have all the tools? It is easy for those that have done it a few times, or have the time and patience, otherwise a gear change costs like 200-250$ parts/labor (atleast in illinois where I go).
how is the s60 cheaper than the 9, the $200 cheaper base price is nice but the new drive shaft takes up the savings? i am having a real hard time dieciding on wich rear to get, any of them im looking at about 3k instaled. but they all have issues, gear noise, leaking, tq arm mount (moser 12) some say the s60 housing is weak? 9 inch you have to bang the shit out of your floor board. i mean all that money and you still cant get a solid performer? they are all stronger than the 10 bolt but all have issues also.

any of them im looking at about 3k instaled. . . . 9 inch you have to bang the shit out of your floor board.

I got mine installed with everything for about $1600. Also, the floor board mod really isn't that bad.

I got mine installed with everything for about $1600. Also, the floor board mod really isn't that bad.
if i could get one for $1600 id do it, form epp $2500 shipped and the rest labor probally around 28 $2900 but you get the point. so the floor board mod isnt to bad then? someone posted a link to speed inc's site where there were pics but i cant seem to find them.

if i could get one for $1600 id do it, form epp $2500 shipped and the rest labor probally around 28 $2900 but you get the point.

If you are that concerned with cost, then do it yourself and half the price.

So in summary, you will get slightly higher mph with the s60 over the 9 inch.
The 9 inch you have to modify heavily as in banging the floorboard and such to make work
The s60 is stronger
The s60 is more of a direct fit
The s60 you shorten your driveshaft by 1.675 or something along those lines. Isn't less weight and rotating mass direct with drivetrain loss (granted it's probably not much)

IMO The s60 seems to be a better bet. It's stronger, and quieter. The weight difference doesn't seem to be a huge problem. The 9 inch seems to need some modifications, andthe s60 pops right in.

Let me know if I'm wrong with any ofthat notes, but easy to install, and easy to make fit, seems the s60 is the choice for me.

Oh, and gear ratios who really swaps gear ratios 5 or 6 times anyway. Me, I know I will be buying my 410 gear and being done with it

The 9 inch you have to modify heavily as in banging the floorboard and such to make work

As I said, the floorboard mod really isn't that bad. I could have that done in the amount of time it takes you to jack the car up.

The s60 is stronger

No. My post from page 2:

- Ford 9" pinion is significantly larger than a D60, closer to the size of a D80.
- Ford 9" ring gear is thicker.
- Ford 9" pinion is supported on both sides.
- Ford 9" has greater vertical pinion offset, giving it more teeth in mesh.
- Ford 9" pinion teeth are at a steeper angle, putting more teeth in mesh.
- Ford 9" has thicker teeth.
- Ford 9" is lighter than D60.
- Ford 9" main caps are larger and thicker than D60.

The s60 is more of a direct fit

Again, no. The 9" was no more difficult than installing another stocker.

The s60 you shorten your driveshaft by 1.675 or something along those lines. Isn't less weight and rotating mass direct with drivetrain loss (granted it's probably not much)

I doubt that 1.7" of aluminum driveshaft is even 1 lb of mass. I would actually consider this an advantage of the 9" since I didn't have to modify the driveshaft. Also, if you want to talk about rotating mass, you really should weigh the gears and carrier of the 9" and D60. I bet the D60 rotating assembly is heavier by more than 1 lb.

Thank you for the post, just trying to get my facts straight. I'm another torn member between the 9 inch and ther s60, all I keep hearing though is the s60 is indestructable. I know I don't want a 12 bolt, but the decision of s60 or 9 inch tears me. I don't want to make the wrong choice, but it seems to me that there is no wrong choice in this matter

If it were me, and I didn't want a 12-bolt (which is what I opted for), I'd go with the 9" hands down. IMO, that is the premier high HP rear for these (and most any) cars. In my situation, the 12-bolt was a better deal due to fitment and completeness (everything came assembled, sway bar brackets welded on already...a true bolt-in).

And I guess to expand a little more, just do some quick reading around on here about people that are having problems with their S60 and gear noise. Unless Strange steps up their quality control, I wouldn't factor that in to the equation at all.

I went with a DLS 9".

- Ford 9" pinion is significantly larger than a D60, closer to the size of a D80.
- Ford 9" ring gear is thicker.
- Ford 9" pinion is supported on both sides.
- Ford 9" has greater vertical pinion offset, giving it more teeth in mesh.
- Ford 9" pinion teeth are at a steeper angle, putting more teeth in mesh.
- Ford 9" has thicker teeth.
- Ford 9" is lighter than D60.
- Ford 9" main caps are larger and thicker than D60.



There is a couple of things to keep in mind with what you said. The Dana has a larger ring gear, so the amount of tatal surface mesh is going to be very close. The 9" has a larger pinion, but only in the lower numeric ratios. Because there are no case splits in a 9" the pinion gets considerably smaller as the ratio gets higher. The 9" pinion is supported on both sides, but the D60 has its pinion bearings further apart, that is close to a wash. The head bearing on a 9" isnt tapered so it offers no lateral support, and the other 2 bearings are to close together to give it good support from deflection(which is why the 3rd beairng is there). Also the vertical pinnoin offset and the teeth being at a steeper angle are products of eachother (because the pinion is higher the teeth have to be at a steeper angle, and vice-versa). This is also one of the things that negates the 9" rotating weight advantage, the higher pinion offset makes it less efficient.
If you are buying one already made the 9" is the clear choice and has many advantages. If you are building one yourself the D60 will be cheaper. 35 spline axles are a stock option so you can buy diff units cheaper(Dana power locks and trac locks are very strong and affordable and include the bolts and bearings usually), there is no 3rd member housing to buy, factory dana gear sets are available in many ratios and are reasonably priced and include most of the install pieces. If you were building it yourself you could build a 35 spline D60 for the price it would take to build a 31 spline lower end 9". I worked for a diff manufacturer/wholesaler for almost 10 years, so I know what the stuff costs and what is available. I am not just making stuff up for arguments sake. Most people are not going to build it themselves so the 9" is the better choice, I am just putting the info out there.

The 9" has a larger pinion, but only in the lower numeric ratios. Because there are no case splits in a 9" the pinion gets considerably smaller as the ratio gets higher.

Pic's on these pages seems to indicate differently:

http://www.sunrayengineering.com/nine.html
http://www.truehi9.com/gears2.html

The first shows side-by-side pic's of D60 and 9" in a 5.13 ratio and the 9" pinion is much larger. The second shows side-by-side pic's of the D60 and 9" in a 4.86 ratio and, again, the 9" is much larger than the D60 and about the same size as a D80.

The 9" pinion is supported on both sides, but the D60 has its pinion bearings further apart, that is close to a wash.

Between-bearings is much, much stiffer than overhung in all but the most extreme cases.

If you are building one yourself the D60 will be cheaper.

Hmmm. . . I built my own 9" using a new Moser Housing, new gears, new 31 spline axles, and a new limited slip carrier for about $1600 including everything. I must admit that I'm not sure what you could do the D60 for.

Mike

Pic's on these pages seems to indicate differently:

http://www.sunrayengineering.com/nine.html
http://www.truehi9.com/gears2.html

The first shows side-by-side pic's of D60 and 9" in a 5.13 ratio and the 9" pinion is much larger. The second shows side-by-side pic's of the D60 and 9" in a 4.86 ratio and, again, the 9" is much larger than the D60 and about the same size as a D80.



Between-bearings is much, much stiffer than overhung in all but the most extreme cases.



Hmmm. . . I built my own 9" using a new Moser Housing, new gears, new 31 spline axles, and a new limited slip carrier for about $1600 including everything. I must admit that I'm not sure what you could do the D60 for.

Mike
The 9" is still slightly larger, but you should what a 9" 3.00 or even 3.50 looks like. Even worse you should see what a 6.50 or better looks like, waay smaller than a 4.11. It is still larger, and I do see that, but also looking at those pictures also show you how close the 2 tapered pinion bearings are. The 8" is actually the original version of the 9", and is why the 9" has the improvements it does. The 8" was far less stout but very similar in construction(as were some other rears of that time, like the GM 8.4 that came in old shoeboxes). Also since the pinion housing is seperate it needs the extra bearing even more to add stability because it is not integral to the housing.
Keep in mind also that the factory 9" parts are not nearly as strong as the aftermarket stuff. Compare a factory 2.89 OD housing bearing to a 35 spline 3.25 bearing. Or even the factory pinion bearings to the daytona style bearings.
I know that a 9" can be built cheap, but once you start seeing what prices are for high quality dana parts you will see the difference. 35 spline D60 parts are very cheap in OE and include the bearings, shims etc most of the time.
An aftermarket 9" is a very good rear, I am just putting both points of view out there. If I did one it would be a 9" no doubt, but it is important to give people all the information and both points of view.

http://www.sunrayengineering.com/images/IM000513.jpg
The Dana 60 and 9" are the 2 furthest to the right. The 9" bearings are only about 1/2" apart(seperated only by the small crush sleeve shown). The dana 60 has one bearing all the way at the head of the pinion like the 9", the other goes by the spline past the shoulder on the gear. That is a big difference in stability. Again, the 9" does have the extra bearing, but the D60 really doesnt need it.

my S-60 was a dierct bolt in, no problems, very easy to install. the only thing i had to do was paint it. they sent everything needed to do the swap. mine came with the bracket mounts for sway bar already welded on.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/Lorcinls1/S-601.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/Lorcinls1/S-604.jpg

what also sold me on it was that it only is suppose to have a power loss of 5%. I took the car to the track and I didn't loose anything, if anything the car is hooking better. my best right now is an 11.60 1.5-60' @114 mph on motor

Well, after 3 weeks my S60 has arrived and will be installed Monday. I will try to post feedback soon. :drive:

keep us posted

Well, after 3 weeks my S60 has arrived and will be installed Monday. I will try to post feedback soon. :drive:

Good Luck.


DJ

Numbers published by Evan Smith in National Dragster show that because of the reduced offset between the pinion shaft axis and the axle centerline, the Dana 60 has lower drivetrain losses than either the 12-bolt or the 9-inch:

Dana 60: 5%
GM 12-Bolt: 7%
Ford 9-inch: 10%

Just replaced my Strange 60 with a 9". I doubt that I will see any difference in 1/4 mile MPH but I will post back up when I get back to the track. My SS has over 2500 passes on it and is very consistant.

It has been my experience in the past that driveline losses are overstated by quite a bit. Put a TH400 in my mustang and lost a wopping .5 mph and never worried about breaking it again. Everyone said I'd lose XX amount due to Driveline loss but it only lost .5 mph which was due to the weight of the Th400. Replaced the 8.8 with a 9" and lost nothing in MPH.

Don't get me wrong I like the idea of using a Dana 60, just not a Strange 60. Strange doesn't seem to know why some customers are having problems and others aren't.

After my six month Strange 60 experience I've gone to a 9".


Just my .02
DJ

Just an update:
I went to the track on 12/27 with the new 9" installed. I ran the car with the 9" with more gas in the car making it heavier and it was tapping the rev limiter on both gears changes this time.

The only real change was the gear ratio, I went with the 3.89's in the 9" vs the 3.73's in the Strange 60.

Dana 60 w/3.73:
Car weight 3820lbs
30.15 Baro
Air temp 66
Best pass 11.96 @ 114.68

9" w 3.89:
Car weight 3850lbs
29.95 Baro
Air temp 63
Best pass 11.88 @ 115.39


Both Passes made at same track. For what it's worth, the 9" doesn't appear to use any more HP than the S60 that I installed.

DJ

As I said, the floorboard mod really isn't that bad. I could have that done in the amount of time it takes you to jack the car up.



No. My post from page 2:

- Ford 9" pinion is significantly larger than a D60, closer to the size of a D80.
- Ford 9" ring gear is thicker.
- Ford 9" pinion is supported on both sides.
- Ford 9" has greater vertical pinion offset, giving it more teeth in mesh.
- Ford 9" pinion teeth are at a steeper angle, putting more teeth in mesh.
- Ford 9" has thicker teeth.
- Ford 9" is lighter than D60.
- Ford 9" main caps are larger and thicker than D60.



Again, no. The 9" was no more difficult than installing another stocker.



I doubt that 1.7" of aluminum driveshaft is even 1 lb of mass. I would actually consider this an advantage of the 9" since I didn't have to modify the driveshaft. Also, if you want to talk about rotating mass, you really should weigh the gears and carrier of the 9" and D60. I bet the D60 rotating assembly is heavier by more than 1 lb.



enough with the d60 bashing, we all know you hate it and preach 9 inch like whoa, but the truth is, you simply found a site that wanted to spout off about the D60's supposed weaknesses and highlight the 9 inches strong points....the truth is, the D60 IS stronger then the 9 inch. It uses a better designed system, and is more efficient, and is stronger....MUCH stronger.

enough with the d60 bashing, we all know you hate it and preach 9 inch like whoa, but the truth is, you simply found a site that wanted to spout off about the D60's supposed weaknesses and highlight the 9 inches strong points....the truth is, the D60 IS stronger then the 9 inch. It uses a better designed system, and is more efficient, and is stronger....MUCH stronger.

Not to bash you or anything, but where is your data supporting the D60 being stronger? I haven't seen one thing posted about why it would be stronger, but I've seen lists of why a 9 inch would be stronger. You can't simply say to the guy: "all your facts are stupid, the D60 is stronger" without backing it up

the truth is, the D60 IS stronger then the 9 inch. It uses a better designed system, and is more efficient, and is stronger....MUCH stronger.

That's an awfully bold statement to post, especially with zero data or proof.

Okay, I'll offer a counterpoint. The truth is, the 9 inch IS stronger than the D60. It uses a better designed system, and is more efficient, and is stronger. . . MUCH stronger.

Mike

That's an awfully bold statement to post, especially with zero data or proof.

Okay, I'll offer a counterpoint. The truth is, the 9 inch IS stronger than the D60. It uses a better designed system, and is more efficient, and is stronger. . . MUCH stronger.

Mike



Ok, you want facts or proof without providing anything more then a website that looks like it was created to do nothing but bash the Dana 60 and make the ford 9 inch look like gods gift to the world....


The Ford 9 inch is obsolete, it is out of production, and losing popularity. So is the 12 bolt, but not so much so, yet.

Dana is still in production, used in NUMEROUS applications, and has a track record, just as strong, if not stronger, then fords 9 inch. Your site picks on the main caps, and how small they look compared to the 9 inch. Yet, i see no problems with the Main caps going bad, or breaking....

Then, there is the pinion issue, wow. So Ford put a 2nd bearing on the pinion gear. I guess that was so they could lose efficiency and lower performance, and reduce gas mileage....good work ford. :drive:

Then theres the ring gear tooth size, and thickness of the gear itself. A proper setup rear, with proper diameter ring gear for the application, should see no problems, regardless of thickness, or tooth size.

As for the size of the pinion, i guess Ford was going for the turkey drumstick/club look... :jest:


Many people opt for the lightening of ring gears to reduce weight.


I could go on, but i think ive proven my point....


the 9 inch is not a bad rear, its just had its hay day and is obsolete. I was actually going to get one, until I learned of the S60 from strange....

Well this ought to be fun. . .

The Ford 9 inch is obsolete, it is out of production, and losing popularity. So is the 12 bolt, but not so much so, yet.

Dana is still in production, used in NUMEROUS applications, and has a track record, just as strong, if not stronger, then fords 9 inch.

Did you bother to think about this statement for 2 seconds before posting it? Hey, I know what's better than the D60, 9", and 12 bolt!!! It's the 7.5" 10 bolt!!! They're still in production, plus they've made and sold way more of those than the D60, so it must be better!

Did it ever occur to you that they quit making the 9" becuase it's expensive to produce? Strength isn't the only consideration when OEM's are mass producing axles...

Then, there is the pinion issue, wow. So Ford put a 2nd bearing on the pinion gear. I guess that was so they could lose efficiency and lower performance, and reduce gas mileage....good work ford.

I don't think anyone who knows anything about cantilever versus between-bearings would EVER argue that the extra pinion bearing isn't better.

Then theres the ring gear tooth size, and thickness of the gear itself. A proper setup rear, with proper diameter ring gear for the application, should see no problems, regardless of thickness, or tooth size.

As for the size of the pinion, i guess Ford was going for the turkey drumstick/club look...

So a proper setup rear will fix all the strength shortcomings in D60 in housing geometry??? Explain how "properly setting up the rear" will defy the laws of physics, or even just basic geometry.

I don't think anyone who knows anything about cantilever versus between-bearings would EVER argue that the extra pinion bearing isn't better.


When you a talking about the difference of bearings being 1/2" apart Vs being 3-4" apart the extra bearing is more of a neccesity rather than a benefit. I would bet if you were to actually measure deflection you would see little to no difference. With the bearings spread so far apart on the dana it is plenty stable. I am by no means bashing the 9", but like I said before that part is pretty much a wash. The exta bearing is better if the other 2 bearing have the same spacing, but as close as the 9" bearings are it isnt the great benefit you would think.

Ok, you want facts or proof without providing anything more then a website that looks like it was created to do nothing but bash the Dana 60 and make the ford 9 inch look like gods gift to the world....


The Ford 9 inch is obsolete, it is out of production, and losing popularity. So is the 12 bolt, but not so much so, yet.

Dana is still in production, used in NUMEROUS applications, and has a track record, just as strong, if not stronger, then fords 9 inch. Your site picks on the main caps, and how small they look compared to the 9 inch. Yet, i see no problems with the Main caps going bad, or breaking....

Then, there is the pinion issue, wow. So Ford put a 2nd bearing on the pinion gear. I guess that was so they could lose efficiency and lower performance, and reduce gas mileage....good work ford. :drive:

Then theres the ring gear tooth size, and thickness of the gear itself. A proper setup rear, with proper diameter ring gear for the application, should see no problems, regardless of thickness, or tooth size.

As for the size of the pinion, i guess Ford was going for the turkey drumstick/club look... :jest:


Many people opt for the lightening of ring gears to reduce weight.


I could go on, but i think ive proven my point....


the 9 inch is not a bad rear, its just had its hay day and is obsolete. I was actually going to get one, until I learned of the S60 from strange....

Sorry, but I just don't get where you are coming from. You were arguing that the D60 is MUCH STRONGER, but in your last post, you kept referring to how "it shouldn't matter" and "if only it is properly set up" and stuff like that. Sounds like you are convinced that a 9 inch is stronger and you are simply arguing that a D60, if set up properly, should be just as strong (COMPLETELY different from your previous argument that the D60 is WAY STRONGER).

If you are saying that the D60, if set up correctly, is probably about the same in strength to a 9 inch, then I agree (listening to both sides of the argument and seeing facts supporting the argument).

If you are saying that the D60 is MUCH STRONGER, then you still haven't provided any evidence to back up your claim. I might agree with you if you provide evidence, but as of right now, the 9 inch looks to be superior.

The 9" in stock form is a good rear. The thing that makes it a great rear is the aftermarket. Every aspect pretty much of an aftermaket 9" is improved over a stock unit, except for the gears themselves(and even they are made better, just original design still). The pinion and carrier bearings are larger, the pinion support is improved, the 3rd member itself is stronger, carriers are better, most people run more than 31 spline (most 9" car rears were 28, with the trucks and high end cars getting 31).
To say that the D60 is far stronger is not true when you are comparing aftermarket rears. Stock to stock, maybe, but an aftermarket 9" is almost over engineered for most of the cars here.
I am not really for either rear, I ma just putting out my experience with both rears from selling parts and building rears.

Sorry, but I just don't get where you are coming from. You were arguing that the D60 is MUCH STRONGER, but in your last post, you kept referring to how "it shouldn't matter" and "if only it is properly set up" and stuff like that. Sounds like you are convinced that a 9 inch is stronger and you are simply arguing that a D60, if set up properly, should be just as strong (COMPLETELY different from your previous argument that the D60 is WAY STRONGER).

If you are saying that the D60, if set up correctly, is probably about the same in strength to a 9 inch, then I agree (listening to both sides of the argument and seeing facts supporting the argument).

If you are saying that the D60 is MUCH STRONGER, then you still haven't provided any evidence to back up your claim. I might agree with you if you provide evidence, but as of right now, the 9 inch looks to be superior.


I was referring to the gear setup with my statement about being setup properly and the thickness of the D60 gear vs. the 9'' gear thickness not really meaning anything. its the gring gear diameter that makes the strong gear.

the teeth on the 9'' are thicker because of the angle at which the pinion is set in the rearend to mate with the ring gear. early 9'' had problems because the teeth were too thin to mate with the ring gear and would fail...

the Dana 60 does not have this issue.

Most cars of today, are moving past the Ford 9''. It's out of production because its obsolete, not because its too expensive to make.... you can get a 9'' for a few hundred dollars more then a Dana 60.

Most oval track cars are moving towards Quality Machine quick change rears with Dana 60 pinion and ring gear sets and designs. The 9'' efficiency rating pales in comparison to other rears. That is its downfall....

its the gring gear diameter that makes the strong gear.

It's awfully convenient for you to assert that the 1 thing on the D60 that's bigger than the 9" is the 1 thing you decide "makes a strong gear". The fact of the matter is that every single aspect of the design makes a strong gear. Everything from helix angle, relative positions, materials, housing stiffness, bearing supports, agma quality, tooth thickness, the list is actually very long. . . affects the strength of the gear set.

Most cars of today, are moving past the Ford 9''. It's out of production because its obsolete, not because its too expensive to make.... you can get a 9'' for a few hundred dollars more then a Dana 60.

What, exactly, makes the 9" obsolete? A Pentium 75 is obsolete. You haven't made a single point yet that has a shade of significance pointing toward a 9" being obsolete. Oh yea. . . I built my 9" for $600 less than you can get a D60.

The 9'' efficiency rating pales in comparison to other rears. That is its downfall....

This may be a bit of an overstatement. Some ultra-competitive NASCAR guys found a few tenths of a hp by going to 12 bolt gears in their 9" and so everyone thinks the 9" has poor efficiency. Go re-read RPOWU8's post.

Mike

ive ran dana 60s and ford 9 inches in both of my old rock crawlers and have never broken either of them. the only difference was that the 9" changed gears quicker, but the dana had more ground clearance which is not an issue on an fbody where there will not be any rocks under the car to worry about. anyway, considering the fact that i will probably never break either of them, but i do a lot of high speed highway driving and need the strongest posi unit available as i refuse to run a locker, i will be going with a Dana S60. The 9" vs. D60 argument doesnt even matter because 95% of us wont break one. but i need a new driveshaft anyway, so this is a perfect time to snag one up. wish me luck.

if 9"ford rears are obsolete and bad design and all this hype, then why do multi-million dollar Pro Stock teams run them...exclusively? those teams can have anything they want in their cars... and they all have 9"!

the fact of the matter is simple. the 10 bolt was well under-engineered for the heavy f-body cars. the aftermarket has supplied us with a few choices of replacements.
usually cost being the determining factor, the S60 is by far the best bang for the buck, and works well in the f-bodys with no clearance or ABS issues. the Ford 9" is a awesome rear end, but belongs in track cars, where the drop out design is the best for maintenance, and strength. and unless you're running heads up no power adder, or comp eliminator where strength isnt an issue, the efficency difference is so little, most of our cars will never see a difference.

if 9"ford rears are obsolete and bad design and all this hype, then why do multi-million dollar Pro Stock teams run them...exclusively? those teams can have anything they want in their cars... and they all have 9"!

the fact of the matter is simple. the 10 bolt was well under-engineered for the heavy f-body cars. the aftermarket has supplied us with a few choices of replacements.
usually cost being the determining factor, the S60 is by far the best bang for the buck, and works well in the f-bodys with no clearance or ABS issues. the Ford 9" is a awesome rear end, but belongs in track cars, where the drop out design is the best for maintenance, and strength. and unless you're running heads up no power adder, or comp eliminator where strength isnt an issue, the efficency difference is so little, most of our cars will never see a difference.

actually, most pro stock are starting to use rearends custom built and fabbed by a company called Quality Machine Inc. who bases their design, from the Dana 60.

if 9"ford rears are obsolete and bad design and all this hype, then why do multi-million dollar Pro Stock teams run them...exclusively? those teams can have anything they want in their cars... and they all have 9"!

the fact of the matter is simple. the 10 bolt was well under-engineered for the heavy f-body cars. the aftermarket has supplied us with a few choices of replacements.
Pro stocks do not use a 9". They do use a 3rd member style rear, but it is not a 9". NASCAR does still use them though, one of the main reasons aside from strength, is the ease of changing ratios. They are the ones you can thank for all the different gears that are available, some within 2-3% of each other.
As far as the 10 bolt being under-engineered, thats not exactly true. For a completely stock car with stock tires the rear is fine, that is how the car was desgined. Sure some stock cars have broken rears, but not without a lot of abuse, and I have seen stock mustangs break rears. I do think they should have put a better rear in, especially when they changed to the 4th gen or at least when they started using LS1's. They probably didnt want to use a limited run rear for V8 cars, the car wasnt selling that great anyway.