Drag Racing Tech - racing without an engine belt

now if i have an electrec water pump and my battery was fully charged can i go to the track without an engine belt? the resone is that i can free the load form the cranck :devil:

If you seriously have all the stuff listed in your sig done to your car 5 hp isnt going to matter Id start with some suspension or tire.... just a thought....

i alrady have susp. and i am using neto 555 redials but in at the track i will be using full slicks

a fully charged battery has a reserve capacity of 100 minutes if you were not using any accessories (lights, a/c, etc.)

only if the track is close!

I wouldnt do it. It may free a couple of HP up but when u dont have the alt runnin the car gets ALOT less voltage. I get about 14.0 volts at cruise speed and 13.5 at idle. When the altenator is disconnected i get 11.8 immeaditly and drops off pretty fast. U might get a few minutes outta it at a descent pace but with a big ass pump and all the other electronics that u have ull be draining power REALYL fast. Im not sayin that u will be outta juice before the tracks end im jsut sayin that u wont get the necessary voltage to teh things that need them and u can end up blowin the motor as teh pumps wont pump enough fuel. GL man

John

why not take the belt off at the track, and take a battery charger for between runs?

why not take the belt off at the track, and take a battery charger for between runs?

now thats what am talking about
but with my msd coils, twin welbro intank, aeromutive pro s. inline, boost cooler, flix 4600 cfm fans, and nitrous acc. will the volt. be enough for 1/4 mile?

It wouldn't make enough difference to matter, so I wouldnt bother with it personally.

Power steering would be nice... not to mention make it easer to drive esp if you got out of shape...

:stupid:

You're crazy to try it. You need water flow to remove hot spots throughout
the engine.

By the time you line up, burn out, stage, and make the pass, the engine will
be over temperature, and possibly damaged. It's also a good way to induce
detonation.

now if i have an electrec water pump


You're crazy to try it. You need water flow to remove hot spots throughout
the engine.

By the time you line up, burn out, stage, and make the pass, the engine will
be over temperature, and possibly damaged. It's also a good way to induce
detonation.




:eyes:

now thats what am talking about
but with my msd coils, twin welbro intank, aeromutive pro s. inline, boost cooler, flix 4600 cfm fans, and nitrous acc. will the volt. be enough for 1/4 mile?
I have a toggle switch that kills the field windings on the alternator. Flip the switch and it just free wheels, then on the return road, flip it back, it works great.

It doesn't matter if the electronics are getting 14 volts of 12 in this case. They were designed for 12 volts.

The amperage is what is pushing the power in this case. Don't worry about your ignition system.

However, I would think that the battery weights more than the alternator. Why not try keeping the alternator and putting in the battery just to start it?

so this idea is not worth it? :confused:

:eyes:

Good one, you got me. Not sure how I missed electric water pump on the
first line.

I have a toggle switch that kills the field windings on the alternator. Flip the switch and it just free wheels, then on the return road, flip it back, it works great.

Do you see any ET or MPH difference with the Alt on or off?

Good one, you got me. Not sure how I missed electric water pump on the
first line.
I missed the electric water pump thing as well. DOH!

But seriously, trying to get what maybe 5hp from that? Look for it somewhere else man. You have 2 power adder's, up the boost and/or the pill for the gas.

Peace,
Craig.

It doesn't matter if the electronics are getting 14 volts of 12 in this case. They were designed for 12 volts.

The amperage is what is pushing the power in this case. Don't worry about your ignition system.

However, I would think that the battery weights more than the alternator. Why not try keeping the alternator and putting in the battery just to start it?

if you're pushing a intank pump hard, it matters.
if you're trying to light off a forced induction or large nitrous car, it matters.
just something to think about....

Good one, you got me. Not sure how I missed electric water pump on the
first line.

My guess is that you had trouble discerning what the hell he was trying to say, examples:

now if i have an electrec water pump

i alrady have susp. and i am using neto 555 redials

the resone is that i can free the load form the cranck

twin welbro intank, aeromutive pro s. inline, boost cooler, flix 4600 cfm fans, and nitrous acc.

Not trying to be the grammar police because I know I make mistakes, but holy shit.

Question, by boost cooler do you meen intercooler? Is it an air to air or air to water. Just wondering because there's no way an a2a intercooler draws voltage.

Belt on vs belt off is about 12-15RWHP at 500RWHP with an electric water pump. The power steering is the biggest culprit over 6500 rpm. They cavitate over 6500 and rob power.

You need the battery fully charged, as when voltage begins to drop A/F goes nutty.

Belt on vs belt off is about 12-15RWHP at 500RWHP with an electric water pump. The power steering is the biggest culprit over 6500 rpm. They cavitate over 6500 and rob power.

You need the battery fully charged, as when voltage begins to drop A/F goes nutty.


now compare alternator only (aka electric waterpump and powersteering bypassed or removed)...

ive seen ALOT of cases where the alternator only one is faster...
and anyone running nitrous or forced induction would probly want to make sure they're getting enough voltage to the pumps....

I think the factory alternator could keep up with power demand else the battery would be discharging under racing with factory setup.

You could get the alternator bracket that BMR makes so you can just run a short belt to only power the alternator. I kind of agree that taking away the power steering is a little risky going down the track if things get squirly but that's up to you. But maybe just running a belt to the alternator will allow you to free up some hp but not worry about voltage. In fact running the alternator will allow you to run a smaller battery and save some weight which may make up for the power it takes to turn the alternator.

Power steering would be nice... not to mention make it easer to drive esp if you got out of shape...


power steering doesn't do much when your moving..If you had an electric WP i really dont see any problem with it.

just run a tiny pulley to the alternator and you're golden

Its a twin turbo LS1 with a nitrous kit seriously 15 hp? really dosent make sense to me..If your used to driving a car with power steering and the thing gets all out of shape it might be a challenge to correct it a risk that outweighs the lost hp... Better ask if the car has all the "free mods" too wouldnt want to miss out on 5 more hp..

http://users3.ev1.net/~black_ops/edc/503rwhp.jpg

back to back. Belt on vs belt off. 13-16 RWHP.

i would like to think all of you guys i think that i got the point.
but it was an idea that i wanted to sheare it with you

wow, i hopped in here looking to get a decent answer i could use for a track only carbed car a buddy and i are setting up, and i read thru two pages of shit!...thanks for the dyno j-rod.

just wondering if the hassle of wiring the alternator is worth it on a track only car...

I wouldnt think it is worth the hastle of taking the belt off completely, and worrying about it. Although on my mustang I by-passed the power steering with a shorter belt, and just ran the alternator and water pump with the a/c as a idler pulley as it free spools if the a/c is off.

But I would like to know how the starter of this thread hesham keeps this car together... "2004 gto lg9 6.0l mti stage 2 heads, fast 90/90 zex fogger system 300 hp, and avo twin turbos "

mainly just the 6.0L 300hp fogger system with avo twin turbos? Unless an avo twin turbo set up makes little or no boost? Or that is one incredible engine... Or something is going over my head....

http://users3.ev1.net/~black_ops/edc/503rwhp.jpg

back to back. Belt on vs belt off. 13-16 RWHP.


Belt On, was that only running Alt? or both Alt and Power Steering?
13 to 16 RWHP is a nice gain.

Belt On, was that only running Alt? or both Alt and Power Steering?
13 to 16 RWHP is a nice gain.

thats powersteering + alt..


and id bet that the far majority of that is from powersteering, and that the results would be quite diff for a alt only vs no belt dyno.

thats powersteering + alt..


and id bet that the far majority of that is from powersteering, and that the results would be quite diff for a alt only vs no belt dyno.

Correct

I agree. I've been looking at doing that also.

Belt On, was that only running Alt? or both Alt and Power Steering?
13 to 16 RWHP is a nice gain.
Is it just me or are the correction factors for each run different? 0.98 for run #3 and 0.99 for run #1. Or am I misinterpreting the pulls? If the CF is not the same the results need to be trashed.

But I would like to know how the starter of this thread hesham keeps this car together... "2004 gto lg9 6.0l mti stage 2 heads, fast 90/90 zex fogger system 300 hp, and avo twin turbos "

mainly just the 6.0L 300hp fogger system with avo twin turbos? Unless an avo twin turbo set up makes little or no boost? Or that is one incredible engine... Or something is going over my head....

I agree with you. That must be one hell of an engine.

give me one week and i well post pic. of my car

this is my project:
bmr SUBFRAME CONNECTORS
HARROP DIFFERENTIAL COVER WITH POLYURETHANE MOUNT
3.91 deff tech. gear ratio
HARROP REAR CRADLE BUSHINGS
bmr DRAG BAGS
bmr HEAVY DUTY CV SHAFTS
bmr BILLET AXLE STUBS
bmr DRIVESHAFT SAFETY LOOP
3.5" alum. HEAVY DUTY DRIVESHAFT
rebelt 4l60e that can handle 600 hp
lq9 6.0 bore .030 (calys pistons, forged connecting rods with arp studs, forged cranck)
comp lifters
avo twinturbo ( twin GT 35R)
asp pully, powermaster alt. 200amp,
g5x3 cam
mti stage 2r heads
msd coils.
msd windows act. switch
fast 90/90 + zex 300 shots fogger system
fast fuel rials
2 welbro fuel pumps intank + 1 aeromutive prose. inline, 70 lb injectors.
boost cooler (snow performance)
mozier water pump.
nos progressive controller + widband dynojet
e01 perfect greddy boot controller

Is it just me or are the correction factors for each run different? 0.98 for run #3 and 0.99 for run #1. Or am I misinterpreting the pulls? If the CF is not the same the results need to be trashed.

No, if you look, the temperature had gone up 2 degrees, and baro had changed slightly. So, the CF changed. I have done more than one dyno test which has more than verified these results. This was the only one I had on hand on short notice.

Uncorrected numbers I would question more than corrected numbers. The correction factor is the attempt to use SAE parameters to stabalize any test data you obtain.


I question this build a bit. First off, who is AVO? Whose kit are you using for twins. Why would use you use a big N/A cam for a F/I application?

Callies, not calys makes crankshafts not piston.
Walboro, not 2 welbro makes fuel pumps
Aeromotive, not aeromutive prose. makes fuel system equipment
Mezeire not mozier makes an electric water pump
I'd like to see pics of this project before I lend it any credence. Att his point I'm sorry to say it sounds like the wishful thinking of a 14 yr old.

No, if you look, the temperature had gone up 2 degrees, and baro had changed slightly. So, the CF changed. I have done more than one dyno test which has more than verified these results. This was the only one I had on hand on short notice.

Uncorrected numbers I would question more than corrected numbers. The correction factor is the attempt to use SAE parameters to stabalize any test data you obtain.


I question this build a bit. First off, who is AVO? Whose kit are you using for twins. Why would use you use a big N/A cam for a F/I application?

Callies, not calys makes crankshafts not piston.
Walboro, not 2 welbro makes fuel pumps
Aeromotive, not aeromutive prose. makes fuel system equipment
Mezeire not mozier makes an electric water pump
I'd like to see pics of this project before I lend it any credence. Att his point I'm sorry to say it sounds like the wishful thinking of a 14 yr old.

that is 2 pumps of walboro intanke and one Aeromotive Pro-Series

big cam coz i want more power with less boost

I'd like to see pics of this project before I lend it any credence. Att his point I'm sorry to say it sounds like the wishful thinking of a 14 yr old.

i agree completely, but i didnt think it was relevant or useful to bring it up.. the topic at hand is interesting enough.

just an idea, and i haven't read the whole thread, but why not run the alternater of the prop?? its dont alot in race cars, basically reduces the the alternator rpm. and means you can shit the weight back in the chasis to! :)

thanks Chris.

just an idea, and i haven't read the whole thread, but why not run the alternater of the prop?? its dont alot in race cars, basically reduces the the alternator rpm. and means you can shit the weight back in the chasis to! :)

thanks Chris.


running the alternator off the driveshaft is only effective for specific kinds of race cars (like asphalt circle track for example)

its not the best thing for drag racing, since the majority of the running time is with it not moving (pit tuning, staging lanes, actual staging, ect)..

I see in your sig your in Jeddah. You Saudis are insane, so I could see one of you guy building something like that. It'd also explain some of the grammar mistakes.

Anyhow, you see Pro racers making big power on turbo cars using cams with lots of overlap. But, on street cars running a turbo car with a cam with lots of overlap is normally sort of frowned upon. You will have less boost, as the ovelap will blled boost since you are pushing your cylinder charge out on overlap.

I see in your sig your in Jeddah. You Saudis are insane, so I could see one of you guy building something like that. It'd also explain some of the grammar mistakes.

Anyhow, you see Pro racers making big power on turbo cars using cams with lots of overlap. But, on street cars running a turbo car with a cam with lots of overlap is normally sort of frowned upon. You will have less boost, as the ovelap will blled boost since you are pushing your cylinder charge out on overlap.

exactly, most FI cam iv seen use high lift low duration and have like a 116 LSA. Iv tried talking to the pro modified guys that run here in NC when IHRA comes by but they are so busy in the pits I dont wanna disturbe (sp?) them form their work. I try to wait till they are out or another class in running but they get out of there before I can talk to em. Would a nitrous cam carry the same characteristics of a boost cam?

As for the belt issue. Most IHRA cars dont run a alt. If your GTO is a track only car bring a battery charger and run without it. If its gonna be driven on the street as well, keep the alt and get a set of underdrive pullys. If you want to get rid of the powersteering junk it and get a manual rack so if you do get into a mess on the track itll be easier to correct. By the looks of your list you have the money to do this right, so dont skip on just removing a belt, set it up right.

Off topic>


You Saudis are insane, so I could see one of you guy building something like that.



I personally like the set up that someone posted earlier with a Kenne Belle s/c (I forget whether it was 2.3 or 2.8L S/C). It was a 408 hydraulic roller in a Corvette that made over 800RWTQ at about 2500 rpm and over 800RWHP peak. That is an insane combo!


On Topic>

It doesn't matter if the electronics are getting 14 volts of 12 in this case. They were designed for 12 volts.

The amperage is what is pushing the power in this case. Don't worry about your ignition system.

However, I would think that the battery weights more than the alternator. Why not try keeping the alternator and putting in the battery just to start it?

If you disconnect your battery while the car is running you'll have a HUGE voltage spike in your alternator and it will probably fry it.

Off topic>





I personally like the set up that someone posted earlier with a Kenne Belle s/c (I forget whether it was 2.3 or 2.8L S/C). It was a 408 hydraulic roller in a Corvette that made over 800RWTQ at about 2500 rpm and over 800RWHP peak. That is an insane combo!


On Topic>

that was americanHP's car and he is on here sometimes. oh and it was a 402 ls2 with a prototype 2.8ltr blower on there. oh and a stock LS6 cam!!!! :)

thanks Chris.

If you disconnect your battery while the car is running you'll have a HUGE voltage spike in your alternator and it will probably fry it.
Every Alternator built since about 1972 has been internally regulated.

The alternator still has load on it. Now if nothing was attacted to the alternator...

well on a N/A 5.3 truck by-passing the alt. and power steering pump with a short belt get me 2/10's of a second and a little over 1mph, never tried it without belt, but with an electric water pump your good to go.

I get three passes on truck without putting stock belt back on. Good luck.

If you have anything serious done to the engine, it's not worth the risk of hoping that you also have the injector voltage offsets tuned right...it's one thing to lose an alternator going down the road at low throttle and low airflow and another when you're at full throttle with a TON of air moving into the engine that needs the right amount of fuel cause lean will mean expensive damage.

Yes, but I have plotted the battery voltage in the car with Autotap and it is never continous anyways. Always jumping up and down.

Unless, you guys have seen otherwise. :(

i dynoed back to back imediatly with and without belt, belt was driving only water pump and alternator, no p/s, i absolutly hate p/s at the track, way to sensitive, i feel much more under control without it. anyway, i gained 15rwhp, and ive yet to see a gain of more than about 5rwhp from a ewp so after i put my ewp on i still did it, i usually trapped better but i only tried it a few times and i guess i was hitting the tires harder since the car wouldnt bogg as easy and id always spin a lil bit, mph was definatly better, if i could have gotten multiple passes back to back and tuned the car for no belt i definalty could have gained some ET

I dunno how much power an alt. alont takes to run.. but with an underdrive pulley and just the alt. running.. I can't imagine it would be much. Not enough to be worth the risk of having an electrical problem that could mess with the fueling, especially with the motor singing along at 6500+ rpm the entire time.

my .02

I know I'm the minority here... but for safety sake, leave it on. You're going to feel like a jackass when you're in a wheelchair over this stupid thing. Safety first... it sounds gay, but its the truth. You get one life/spine/brain, GM makes millions of cars. Smash head on into a wall and walk away because some bean counter didn't cheese out on the racecar and you'll understand when i'm coming from.

let me know how things turn out when you blow the intake apart from the twin turbocharged 300 shot :eyes: due to ONE weak spark. :) OR you could turn up the boost .1 psi and overcome the losses from the alternator. :eek2:

I know I'm the minority here... but for safety sake, leave it on. You're going to feel like a jackass when you're in a wheelchair over this stupid thing. Safety first... it sounds gay, but its the truth. You get one life/spine/brain, GM makes millions of cars. Smash head on into a wall and walk away because some bean counter didn't cheese out on the racecar and you'll understand when i'm coming from.

um, what are you talkin about dude, there not any saftey risk in pulling a belt, worst case if you dont have a good battery you looze power and or screw up your a/f mixture if you have a weak battery posibly leaning out the motor but i doubt thats gunna put you in a wall and powersteering in a fast car is more a saftey risk that a prevenative, make these cars way to sensitive

let me know how things turn out when you blow the intake apart from the twin turbocharged 300 shot :eyes: due to ONE weak spark. :) OR you could turn up the boost .1 psi and overcome the losses from the alternator. :eek2:

I dont ususally step into threads like this...because Im still learning. But this sounds like the best take on the situation. With all the electronics in these cars, worrying about loosing power is the last thing that I want to deal with.

Also...arent aftermarket fuel pumps rated while at 14volts? Since thats what they are run at while in the car? So, if you are now running them at 12v, can that mess up the fuel delievery? i dont know how touchy things are with twins and a big shot...but again. Its something I wouldnt want to worry about.

Justin

give me one week and i well post pic. of my car

Well, you posted this on 11/22 and it's 11/29......
Where are they?

Have you heard of the expression “Arabic appointment”? next week means next week , it is like saying hasta manyana is Spanish = see you tomorrow , but you might not see him ever. :jest:

check out these forced lsx in 4x4 in Saudi Arabia:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYfvhzfZTvw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zuxz2y9M-Sk

http://www.t63ys.com/osama/alobead.wmv


^^ 90% of cars in the video are lsx

http://www.t63ys.com/osama/alobead.wmv


^^ 90% of cars in the video are lsx

Ha, that fucker got owned.