Firm 2-3 shift?
01-12-2007, 07:22 AM
#1
Firm 2-3 shift? Does anybody have a nice firm 2-3 shift on a 4L60e? mine bites hard for the 1-2, but the 2-3 just seems so weak. it probably has something to do with why my trans wont shift into 3rd at WOT.
but for those with good transmissions, does your 2-3 bite as hard as your 1-2 shift?
but for those with good transmissions, does your 2-3 bite as hard as your 1-2 shift?
01-12-2007, 07:55 AM
#2
Mine is the same way i last time trans was built i had the trans go kit put in thinking this would solve the problem but it did'nt. 1-2 shifts are awesome but 2-3 is so soft. I had a trans guy drive it and he said it was normal. I dont believe him thought. I guess ill see in the spring when i start driving it again. I predict 3 months and it will go out.
01-12-2007, 08:17 AM
#3
Well our units have very firm 3rd shift particularly the levels 2 and 3 but for mechanical reasons the 3rd shift is never likely to be as aggressive as the 1-2 , Many things come into play here , There is of course the wider jump between gears on the 1-2 shift which contributes but more theres so much more surface area with the band and super servos in second that can possibly be attained in 3rd with the 3-4 clutch which only has a fraction of the apply surface area of the band even with the most aggressive friction material and additional clutches its still far less,
Added to this the 2-3 shift is a bit more complicated since the oil supplying the 3-4 clutch is also used to release the band at the same time so with a given about of fluild volume available its used in more places,This is compounded even further during manual shift from 2-3 because the overun clutch is turned on during this shift also which leaves fluid needing to be applied in three different places . BAND RELEASE,OVERUN APPLY AND 3-4 CLUTCH APPLY which is why you tend to hear more stories of the bumping the rev limiter on a manual 2-3 than in the OD position.
However of note when theres no mechanical issue involved and some type of shift improvement (kit etc) has been made from looking at what people are saying I think the hitting of the limiter is more likely a failure to anticipate the shift time or lag from command to actual shift since with the additional applications going on it takes more time for this clutch to apply.I have ready threads in forums where in order to get a 2-3 shift at 6200 rpm the shift timing had to be set as low as 5100 rpm but that did solve there problem.
This problem can be compounded by transmissions with excessive 3-4 clutch clearance and its effect is always increased with any power mods that will let the engine turn up faster.
But overall if your having the 2-3 hits the rev limiter issue and provided the 3-4 clutch is in good shape and the set clearance is not to high most likely its a failure tuning wise to anticipate the lag time between the electrical command for the shift which is instant to the reality of the mechanical actual time it takes to move the 3-4 clutch to the apply position , I would first work to lower the shift RPM and MPH for the 2-3 shift to its lowest setting then if it stops hitting the limiter gradually raise these to get what I was looking for .
If you still hit the rev limiter with this low shift setting i would look for a mechanical issue which could involve work to the 3-4 clutch or increasing feed to the 3-4 clutch further and we have noted many builders do leave the 3-4 clutch clearance to high both initially and by failure to anticipate compression after the set has been applied a few times
Added to this the 2-3 shift is a bit more complicated since the oil supplying the 3-4 clutch is also used to release the band at the same time so with a given about of fluild volume available its used in more places,This is compounded even further during manual shift from 2-3 because the overun clutch is turned on during this shift also which leaves fluid needing to be applied in three different places . BAND RELEASE,OVERUN APPLY AND 3-4 CLUTCH APPLY which is why you tend to hear more stories of the bumping the rev limiter on a manual 2-3 than in the OD position.
However of note when theres no mechanical issue involved and some type of shift improvement (kit etc) has been made from looking at what people are saying I think the hitting of the limiter is more likely a failure to anticipate the shift time or lag from command to actual shift since with the additional applications going on it takes more time for this clutch to apply.I have ready threads in forums where in order to get a 2-3 shift at 6200 rpm the shift timing had to be set as low as 5100 rpm but that did solve there problem.
This problem can be compounded by transmissions with excessive 3-4 clutch clearance and its effect is always increased with any power mods that will let the engine turn up faster.
But overall if your having the 2-3 hits the rev limiter issue and provided the 3-4 clutch is in good shape and the set clearance is not to high most likely its a failure tuning wise to anticipate the lag time between the electrical command for the shift which is instant to the reality of the mechanical actual time it takes to move the 3-4 clutch to the apply position , I would first work to lower the shift RPM and MPH for the 2-3 shift to its lowest setting then if it stops hitting the limiter gradually raise these to get what I was looking for .
If you still hit the rev limiter with this low shift setting i would look for a mechanical issue which could involve work to the 3-4 clutch or increasing feed to the 3-4 clutch further and we have noted many builders do leave the 3-4 clutch clearance to high both initially and by failure to anticipate compression after the set has been applied a few times
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Last edited by performabuilt; 01-12-2007 at 08:35 AM.
01-12-2007, 08:27 AM
#4
Normal may not be the word, common is more accurate.
When I put the transgo kit in my A4 I also installed a borg warner 3-4 clutch pack with 8 thick frictions and steels set at .045.
That doesn't solve the problem alone you also need to get the feed and release holes in the seperator plate sized for your application. For me it's trial and error, or just stick to what the kit says.
The feed holes need to be right because 2-3 shift feel is a combination of second releasing and third applying, it all needs to work together, this includes the second servo adjustment.
I also shortened the desired shift times and increased line pressure under the 2-3 shift modifier in HPTuners.
I had the transmission out 3 times, and the valve body off about 6 times to get it perfect.
The first time for hole sizes in the seperator plate I took the advice of a sponsor that used to be here and it made it worse. Ruined the seperator plate.
When I put the transgo kit in my A4 I also installed a borg warner 3-4 clutch pack with 8 thick frictions and steels set at .045.
That doesn't solve the problem alone you also need to get the feed and release holes in the seperator plate sized for your application. For me it's trial and error, or just stick to what the kit says.
The feed holes need to be right because 2-3 shift feel is a combination of second releasing and third applying, it all needs to work together, this includes the second servo adjustment.
I also shortened the desired shift times and increased line pressure under the 2-3 shift modifier in HPTuners.
I had the transmission out 3 times, and the valve body off about 6 times to get it perfect.
The first time for hole sizes in the seperator plate I took the advice of a sponsor that used to be here and it made it worse. Ruined the seperator plate.
01-12-2007, 02:56 PM
#6
Well it can only be made as firm as mechanical constraints will allow , maximum feed size and reasonable pressure increase, Generally ours are considered quite firm on the level 2 and 3 units we have actually had complaints from people using low stall converters that it was to hard before, of course for some theres no such thing as to harsh and others if they feel it at all they say it rattles there teeth . But I can say we have never had anyone say it was to soft.
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01-12-2007, 04:11 PM
#7
i installed a transgo full race/high stall shift kit in my stock tranny (had 45k on it at the time...63k when i sold the car) and had my tuner bump the line pressure a hair - my 1-2 shift would snap your neck, and 2-3 wasn't much weaker. on the street the car would get sideways on the 2-3 shift on steet tires and would chirp drag radials...1-2 i never felt because of the 4k stall and TIRESPIN.
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01-12-2007, 07:16 PM
#10
The one thing not mentioned in this thread, if the 2-3 shift is to hard you can break the drum. This happens where the snap ring groove is that holds the 3-4 clutch in. Hard shifts will break the tabs off the drum above the snap ring groove. I have seen this happen many times with excessive pressure or a feed hole that was to large. Solid billet second servos will also contribute to this as well. The reason is because with this style servo there is no accumulation for the 2-3 shift. Thought I add my 2 cents. Vince
01-12-2007, 07:17 PM
#11
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I have the Zpak for my 3-4 clutches.....but mine kicks pretty damn hard form 2-3....at part throttle if u have change in ur cup holder ur hear it rattle right on the shift and at full throttle its perfect and instant, and thats thru my 3400 stall.
01-12-2007, 07:57 PM
#12
True and that would be compounded by excessive 3-4 clutch clearance which in every case where I have seen the ring broken out and reassembled to do a clearance check this was the case. We have never had this to occur in one of our units. Distance x force = speed and a greater impact, However of note while there is not as much there is still some accumulation with the billet servo since with the return spring and fluid still being the method of release there still is a certain amount of accumulation though not as much as with the corvette and just a little less than the sonnax ,In all cases the chamber behind the servo must fill with oil else the band would not release.It definatly is somewhat of a balancing act thats takes some time and experimentation to work out and we have.
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01-13-2007, 12:16 AM
#18
Originally Posted by performabuilt
I do get tired of people trashing the 4L60E built right its a helluva transmission add a stall and nothing better
I AGREE, mine is bad ***.
01-13-2007, 12:56 AM
#19
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i just think 6spds are wayyyy more fun to drive. just my opinion but there IS somethin better then a built 4l60.....BANGIN GEARS is way better. i dont care about every last tenth of a second that i can make at the track. if you drive your car every day, you wanna have fun drivin it EVERY DAY
01-13-2007, 01:13 AM
#20
Originally Posted by performabuilt
I do get tired of people trashing the 4L60E built right its a helluva transmission add a stall and nothing better
This is true, but do you HAVE to blow your own horn constantly? The tech was great and useful, and I do realize you're really only here to sell product... but you know, if you'd leave it at tech comments, I might assume you were too busy building great transmissions to respond constantly to every single trans thread numerous times... which makes me wonder why you have so much time on your hands.
