Synthetic Oil? Maybe not....
02-06-2007, 06:59 AM
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Synthetic Oil? Maybe not.... I found this over at 35thle.com. One of the members there got it from ls1.com. Not good news, I think. Comments?
For those of you who use Mobil 1 Synthetic here is something to think
about the next time you change oil. I got this off of the LS1 board.
And a little "guide book" and history for those who do not live on
engineering/chemist forums for "fun"
All synthetics are not equal. The API has not come out and defined
what is "synthetic", but rather, classified oils into five major
groups.
Group I base oils are the least refined of all of the groups. They
are usually a mix of different hydrocarbon chains with little or no
uniformity. While some automotive oils use these stocks, they are
generally used in less demanding applications.
Group II base oils are common in mineral based motor oils. They have
fair to good performance in the areas of volatility, oxidation
stability, wear prevention and flash/fire points. They have only fair
performance in areas such as pour point and cold crank viscosity.
Group II base stocks are what the majority of engine oils are made
from. 3000 mile oil changes are the norm.
Group III base oils are subjected to the highest level of refining of
all the mineral oil stocks. Although not chemically engineered, they
offer improved performance in a wide range of areas as well as good
molecular uniformity and stability. By definition they are considered
a synthesized material and can be used in the production of synthetic
and semi-synthetic lubricants. Group III is used in the vast majority
of full synthetics or synthetic blends. They are superior to group I
and II oils but still have limitations. Some formulations are
designed for extended oil changes. Amsoil XM Oils, Castrol Syntec and
many others fall into this category.
Group IV are polyalphaolefins (PAO) which are a chemically engineered
synthesized basestocks. PAOs offer excellent stability, molecular
uniformity and performance over a wide range of lubricating
properties. Amsoil Synthetics and Mobil 1 primarily use group IV
basestocks. PAO is a much more expensive basestock than the highly
refined petroleum oil basestock of Group III. (Can you say profit
margin! Grab your ankles and sing along!)
Group V base oils are also chemically engineered stocks that do not
full into any of the categories previously mentioned. Typical
examples of group V stocks are Esters, polyglycols and silicone.
Redline uses an ester basestock.
In the 90s, Mobil filed suit against Castrol for falsely advertising
Syntec oil as synthetic, when in fact it contained a Group III,
highly hydroprocessed mineral (Dino) oil, instead of a chemically
synthesized (group IV or V) basestock. Due to the amount that the
mineral oil had been chemically changed, the judge decided in
Castrol's favor. As a result, any oil containing this highly
hydroprocessed mineral (Dino) oil (currently called Group III
basestock by the American Petroleum Institute) can be marketed as a
synthetic oil. Since the original synthetic basestock
(polyalphaolefin or PAO) is much more expensive than the Group III
basestock, most of the oil blenders switched to the Group III
basestock, which significantly increased their profit margins.
I have kept my big mouth shut for awhile until I could develop some
decent "proof" of what I suspected. Mobil1 is no longer a 100% Group
IV Synthetic PAO basestock. This all started post Katrina when Mobil1
announced it's PAO plant was whacked hard. Virgin Oil Analysis began
popping up on various boards refelcting Group III basestocks with
drops of GroupIV PAO's. Pennzoil Platinum did the same thing....went
to a Group III basestock in November 2005 by the way. And I do watch
many boards and forums outside of BITOG.....(which has turned into a
zoo by the way).....I read the corporate reports of Exxon-Mobil and
Shell.....so I research and get my info from more than the Internet
and VOA's....
I wrote a letter to Mobil asking if their basestock was still 100%
Group IV and got a "canned response" like others word for word by the
way....
" Mobil 1 motor oils are 100% synthetic, utilizing the PAO basestock
and proprietary blend of additives that is tailored specifically for
each viscosity. Mobil does not discuss specifics about our motor oil
formulations."
You want to know why I have an issue with that statement? Because
Mobil Pre-Katrina always said and advertised they used Group IV
basestock exclusively. "Utilizing the PAO basestock...." is not the
same as "Exclusively using the PAO basestock..."......that is a
change for sure....the other thing that has me convinced Mobil1 is
now just another synthetic "blend" is they are now advertising they
utilize "Synthetic Technology"....
So.....Mobil in their Corporate Report admit to disaster at the plant
that made the PAO basestock ( which Amsoil buys there by the way).
VOA's clearly show a reformulation with Group III showing up. Mobil
has changed the way they "express themselves" now. Mobil1 now sells
it for like $5-$6 bucks a quart for a Synthetic Blend oil. And that
is a rip off as they are now just as guilty as those they sued and
litigated against years ago.
I remain an advocate that Mobil1 is good oil. However it is very very
overpriced for what it is now. Lot better oils out there for less
money for sure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SSmoky01
So what oil are you gonna run now Sarge? "Lot better oils out there
for less money for sure." What oils are you speaking of?
Well ........
Full Synthetics
RedLine / Royal Purple Racing 21 or 41 / Amsoil/ Cosworth
http://www.focussport.com/liquidcosworth.htm
Synthetic Blends
Shaffers http://www.schaefferoil.com/ or Pennzoil Platinum
Dino
Castrol GTX or Havoline
Or Sarges High Performance Soup
6qts Castrol GTX
3oz AutoRX http://www.auto-rx.com/index.html
8ozs Valvoline Synpower Oil Treatment
http://www.valvoline.com/pages/produ...asp?product=21
Just in......from a "oil board" and the author is a known chemist
guru.....
Okay boys and girls, take a seat cause you aren't going to like this.
The new M1 EP 5W-30 SM dated Oct 2006 just came out of the G.C. and
it is MOSTLY mineral oil, presumably Group III. It also contains a
good slug of AN and some PAO, but little or no ester. Will have more
data tomorrow.
And Mobil has changed its spec sheets on the 5-30 EP....
"PAO + hydroprocessed."
BY the way GC is Gas Chromatograph....cuts through the (crap) machine
After all these years of Mobil1 crying about other "Synthetic Blend"
brands selling as Full Synthetics.....they go and do this.....just
goes to show you what money and greed will do.
For those of you who use Mobil 1 Synthetic here is something to think
about the next time you change oil. I got this off of the LS1 board.
And a little "guide book" and history for those who do not live on
engineering/chemist forums for "fun"
All synthetics are not equal. The API has not come out and defined
what is "synthetic", but rather, classified oils into five major
groups.
Group I base oils are the least refined of all of the groups. They
are usually a mix of different hydrocarbon chains with little or no
uniformity. While some automotive oils use these stocks, they are
generally used in less demanding applications.
Group II base oils are common in mineral based motor oils. They have
fair to good performance in the areas of volatility, oxidation
stability, wear prevention and flash/fire points. They have only fair
performance in areas such as pour point and cold crank viscosity.
Group II base stocks are what the majority of engine oils are made
from. 3000 mile oil changes are the norm.
Group III base oils are subjected to the highest level of refining of
all the mineral oil stocks. Although not chemically engineered, they
offer improved performance in a wide range of areas as well as good
molecular uniformity and stability. By definition they are considered
a synthesized material and can be used in the production of synthetic
and semi-synthetic lubricants. Group III is used in the vast majority
of full synthetics or synthetic blends. They are superior to group I
and II oils but still have limitations. Some formulations are
designed for extended oil changes. Amsoil XM Oils, Castrol Syntec and
many others fall into this category.
Group IV are polyalphaolefins (PAO) which are a chemically engineered
synthesized basestocks. PAOs offer excellent stability, molecular
uniformity and performance over a wide range of lubricating
properties. Amsoil Synthetics and Mobil 1 primarily use group IV
basestocks. PAO is a much more expensive basestock than the highly
refined petroleum oil basestock of Group III. (Can you say profit
margin! Grab your ankles and sing along!)
Group V base oils are also chemically engineered stocks that do not
full into any of the categories previously mentioned. Typical
examples of group V stocks are Esters, polyglycols and silicone.
Redline uses an ester basestock.
In the 90s, Mobil filed suit against Castrol for falsely advertising
Syntec oil as synthetic, when in fact it contained a Group III,
highly hydroprocessed mineral (Dino) oil, instead of a chemically
synthesized (group IV or V) basestock. Due to the amount that the
mineral oil had been chemically changed, the judge decided in
Castrol's favor. As a result, any oil containing this highly
hydroprocessed mineral (Dino) oil (currently called Group III
basestock by the American Petroleum Institute) can be marketed as a
synthetic oil. Since the original synthetic basestock
(polyalphaolefin or PAO) is much more expensive than the Group III
basestock, most of the oil blenders switched to the Group III
basestock, which significantly increased their profit margins.
I have kept my big mouth shut for awhile until I could develop some
decent "proof" of what I suspected. Mobil1 is no longer a 100% Group
IV Synthetic PAO basestock. This all started post Katrina when Mobil1
announced it's PAO plant was whacked hard. Virgin Oil Analysis began
popping up on various boards refelcting Group III basestocks with
drops of GroupIV PAO's. Pennzoil Platinum did the same thing....went
to a Group III basestock in November 2005 by the way. And I do watch
many boards and forums outside of BITOG.....(which has turned into a
zoo by the way).....I read the corporate reports of Exxon-Mobil and
Shell.....so I research and get my info from more than the Internet
and VOA's....
I wrote a letter to Mobil asking if their basestock was still 100%
Group IV and got a "canned response" like others word for word by the
way....
" Mobil 1 motor oils are 100% synthetic, utilizing the PAO basestock
and proprietary blend of additives that is tailored specifically for
each viscosity. Mobil does not discuss specifics about our motor oil
formulations."
You want to know why I have an issue with that statement? Because
Mobil Pre-Katrina always said and advertised they used Group IV
basestock exclusively. "Utilizing the PAO basestock...." is not the
same as "Exclusively using the PAO basestock..."......that is a
change for sure....the other thing that has me convinced Mobil1 is
now just another synthetic "blend" is they are now advertising they
utilize "Synthetic Technology"....
So.....Mobil in their Corporate Report admit to disaster at the plant
that made the PAO basestock ( which Amsoil buys there by the way).
VOA's clearly show a reformulation with Group III showing up. Mobil
has changed the way they "express themselves" now. Mobil1 now sells
it for like $5-$6 bucks a quart for a Synthetic Blend oil. And that
is a rip off as they are now just as guilty as those they sued and
litigated against years ago.
I remain an advocate that Mobil1 is good oil. However it is very very
overpriced for what it is now. Lot better oils out there for less
money for sure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SSmoky01
So what oil are you gonna run now Sarge? "Lot better oils out there
for less money for sure." What oils are you speaking of?
Well ........
Full Synthetics
RedLine / Royal Purple Racing 21 or 41 / Amsoil/ Cosworth
http://www.focussport.com/liquidcosworth.htm
Synthetic Blends
Shaffers http://www.schaefferoil.com/ or Pennzoil Platinum
Dino
Castrol GTX or Havoline
Or Sarges High Performance Soup
6qts Castrol GTX
3oz AutoRX http://www.auto-rx.com/index.html
8ozs Valvoline Synpower Oil Treatment
http://www.valvoline.com/pages/produ...asp?product=21
Just in......from a "oil board" and the author is a known chemist
guru.....
Okay boys and girls, take a seat cause you aren't going to like this.
The new M1 EP 5W-30 SM dated Oct 2006 just came out of the G.C. and
it is MOSTLY mineral oil, presumably Group III. It also contains a
good slug of AN and some PAO, but little or no ester. Will have more
data tomorrow.
And Mobil has changed its spec sheets on the 5-30 EP....
"PAO + hydroprocessed."
BY the way GC is Gas Chromatograph....cuts through the (crap) machine
After all these years of Mobil1 crying about other "Synthetic Blend"
brands selling as Full Synthetics.....they go and do this.....just
goes to show you what money and greed will do.
02-06-2007, 08:24 AM
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Well, I'm gonna wait and see how this pans out. I just find it hard to believe that M1 would go this route after screaming so much about Castrol's blends. I would think that would be marketing suicide.
02-06-2007, 11:26 AM
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I read this sometime last year when it was posted on another forum yet I have used Mobil 1 for the past two oil changes. The thing is... Mobil 1 is still great oil. No, it may not be 100% synthetic but it's still great oil; however, it's not worth the price of it at this point.
I am switching to GC 0w30 next change. I've got 6 quarts of it here with a Delco filter.
I am switching to GC 0w30 next change. I've got 6 quarts of it here with a Delco filter.
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02-06-2007, 11:40 AM
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GC 0w30 is hard to find. Nowhere around here has it. Still, Syntec is mentioned here as a Group III, so according to this, it's no better than M1.
Has anyone else heard anything like all of this? Please don't just post what oil you use, either.
Has anyone else heard anything like all of this? Please don't just post what oil you use, either.
02-06-2007, 12:13 PM
#10
Tech Resident
from my understanding:
GC 0W-30 is a full synthetic.
mobil 1's 30 weights are group III synthetics.
i'm currently using mobil 1 5W-40 for turbo diesels right now. from what i've heard, 0W-40 and 5W-40 are still group IV synthetics and it's the 30 weights that they have sold out on. the oil i'm using is very rare. i can only find it at autozone.
so far, i think i like the GC 0W-30 better btw. the mobil 1 5W-40 has cost me a little bit of oil pressure at cruise (it's higher upon startup on very cold days since it's a 5W, but once it warms up it shows a few psi loss throughout idle, cruise and heavier throttle). we'll see how the analysis goes when its time comes.
GC 0W-30 is a full synthetic.
mobil 1's 30 weights are group III synthetics.
i'm currently using mobil 1 5W-40 for turbo diesels right now. from what i've heard, 0W-40 and 5W-40 are still group IV synthetics and it's the 30 weights that they have sold out on. the oil i'm using is very rare. i can only find it at autozone.
so far, i think i like the GC 0W-30 better btw. the mobil 1 5W-40 has cost me a little bit of oil pressure at cruise (it's higher upon startup on very cold days since it's a 5W, but once it warms up it shows a few psi loss throughout idle, cruise and heavier throttle). we'll see how the analysis goes when its time comes.
02-06-2007, 02:27 PM
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Been hearing a lot of rumblings about Mobil 1 lately. The word will eventually be out about Mobil 1 and Amsoil will be the new king. Kinda hard to find compared to Mobil 1, but demand will likely increase. Buy your Amsoil stock now people. Too bad because Mobil once prided itself on being the best.
02-06-2007, 02:45 PM
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I use conventional Castrol 5w-30, have had zero problems w/ it. May switch to Mobil next oil change. Probably not though, b/c I just assume to change it every three months regardless of type. Oil is cheaper than metal!!
02-06-2007, 04:00 PM
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My bitch is that there is no AutoZone local. I mean, I guess I could drive 15 miles to Mobile, but I hate going into Mobile. O'Reillys here has Royal Purple. I may give that a try...
02-07-2007, 12:34 PM
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mobile 1 for my boosted motor, until the FI section has a good oil that most of the guys run, i will stick with what i got. you'd be amazed at how much oil an STS car needs because the turbo sits in the *** and has 3 million feet of oil lines
02-07-2007, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Billy_B4C
GC 0w30 is hard to find. Nowhere around here has it. Still, Syntec is mentioned here as a Group III, so according to this, it's no better than M1.
Has anyone else heard anything like all of this? Please don't just post what oil you use, either.
Has anyone else heard anything like all of this? Please don't just post what oil you use, either.
), at the present time over there!! Yes, the GM/domestic bashing has made that place "zoo like", but to their credit, they banned/disciplined the worst of the offending/guilty import fanboys and it's actually "civil" (on this front at least, for the time being) over there.As far as the Syntec being "only" a Grp. 3, I believe the reference is to the "Americas only" Syntecs, NOT the "Euro" formulas (GC 0W-30/BC 5W-40), which I think even have some Grp. 5 esters in their formula??
Patman, you out there?? HE WOULD KNOW this, as sure as we know the sun will rise tomorrow morning!!
03-09-2007, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by cabech984
I use conventional Castrol 5w-30, have had zero problems w/ it. May switch to Mobil next oil change. Probably not though, b/c I just assume to change it every three months regardless of type. Oil is cheaper than metal!!
same here GTX FTW!