Dynamometer Results & Comparisons - WTF!!! MS4 Dyno's 336rwhp/290rwtq!!! Something's Wrong Here!!!

Something has got to be wrong here. I need help!!! Mods are in sig.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m227/schtick_2006/dynosheet.jpg

Here's a video of the dyno runs.

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m227/schtick_2006/th_dynoruns1.jpg (http://s105.photobucket.com/albums/m227/schtick_2006/?action=view&current=dynoruns1.flv)

Sounds strong...does it feel okay on the street? Auto transmissions and dynos don't always get along, so I'd not put much stock in those results.

Yeah i realize that. Just seems like it should have been in the 385rwhp/350rwtq range.

Who did the tune?

Why does the sample start over 5000? How much converter? Locked or unlocked? It looks unlocked.

seems somethings up i have a similar grind and i put down 400rwhp thru a 3500stall and 4.10s.

whats ur limiter set to?

what gear did they pull it in

I had a similar problem with my car never dynoed worth a shit but it felt good on the street finally found out I had a bad fuel injector replaced that and picked up 50 rwhp.

Good luck.

That sounds about right. I did a before and after dyno on my car. When I first got my car it was as stock as you could get, and i took it to the local dyno so I could see how much power I had to start from. Bone stock with a 4l60e it made 278 @ the tire. So with a cam only, if you made 336 rwhp you picked up a good bit of power. Thats over 50 rwhp.

Look at my sig... Now I am starting to wonder if there is a batch of bad ms4 cams.. ?????

I made 383rwhp and 325rwtq.... :bang:

I had a similar problem with my car never dynoed worth a shit but it felt good on the street finally found out I had a bad fuel injector replaced that and picked up 50 rwhp.

Good luck.

how did you know ?
and it didn`t show on the dyno?

wanna learn thanks :)

Ill try and answer all the questions as best I can. This is the first time Ive ever done any mods like this...first time Ive ever had anything on a dyno even. By the way, I was not the one operating the car during the dyno runs. OK. Here goes.

Redline Performance in Herculaneum MO did the tune.

I don't know why the chart starts over 5000 rpm. I honestly don't know where it should start. The stall is a Yank 3800 and I have 3:73 gears. Don't know if it was locked or unlocked. How can you tell the difference?

Not sure what the rev limiter is set at but the pull was stopped at 6600 rpm.

Im guessing they pulled it in 3rd gear???

Shouldn't the hp curve look different than that? I was expecting more of a jump at the beginning (like almost straight up), then level off w/ a gradual rise, and then peter off right at the end.

:lurk:

i put down 314/327 with just a lid, home ported TB, and 3.73's... somethings up

I'm betting your converter was unlocked .....I put down 336 with SI with my converter locked.

Its pretty low even with an unlocked convertor. The mods in my sig I made 370rwhp unlocked. There is something going on there.

I bet the pull was made in the wrong gear and the stall wasn't locked up as well. Is that shop a sponsor on this board? Do they have LSx experience? call and ask if the guy in the car happened to be looking at the speedometer, that should tell you what gear you are in. Take it to the track and see what's really up if everything else seems to check out.
Good Luck
AJ

am I looking at this right? The torque and horsepower curves don't intersect?

It's blowing through the converter or tranny.It just wasn't dyno'd right.I hope they street tuned it instead.

You can ask for a printout with the RPM replaced by MPH, and that'll tell ya if its in third, and locked or unlocked. Just by the fact it starts over 5000, I would think its unlocked.

the car was blowing through the converter which is why the sample started at 5k rpm. The converter won't lock up at all. It was pulled in 3rd gear. Also other things to consider is a stock ls1 intake, 2 1/2 in exhaust. The converter is honestly a little too loose for this setup all together. No other bolt on's besides headers, and a lid. Car was street tuned.

I don't know what you're complaining about... Those numbers look normal for those mods on a 7 cylinder LS1 ;)

Yeah this guy has a lot of experience. I don't think they are sponsors on here but there were a ton of LS1 cars there and I know that they are well-respected in the STL area. It was street tuned. Before the tune I was having trouble getting the coverter to lock when I would drive it to make a few vids. The tuner drove it once and said that it wasnt locking but that was before the tune was complete. Can the tune affect the converter lock? It idles good. Everything seems to be working properly and seems to have good power. Stall is a Yank SS3800.

Another thing I noticed was that it was a Dynojet. Shouldn't that show higher numbers than a Mustang dyno too since it doesn't put a load on the car? If that's the case then it's actually lower than 336 rwhp on the street.

here is an average graph of ms4 cam only auto car with the normal bolt on's. This is an 01 SS.

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/3/7513315275.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5003654)

Get yourself an ls6 manifold, port your throttle body, and maybe a pulley. Then have the car dynoed correctly, you should pull some good numbers then.

Get yourself an ls6 manifold, port your throttle body, and maybe a pulley. Then have the car dynoed correctly, you should pull some good numbers then.


the car was dyno'ed correctly. The manifold is restricting it alot I think. Also the tb would help out too. A smaller converter would be alot better also.

Its pretty low even with an unlocked convertor. The mods in my sig I made 370rwhp unlocked. There is something going on there.
mine hit 372 unlocked and 399 locked

mine hit 372 unlocked and 399 locked
Are your mods similar to mine?

I had a similar problem. It started exactally what your saying with the converter not locking up. I put a new converter in it and gained 40 rwhp the first pull on the new converter. Swap the converter. :)

Maaaaaaaan. Not news I wanted to here. :( I got this converter with 2000 miles on it. Should have been awesome. I hope that's not the deal. Does Yank have sort of guarantee or anything?

you can have them "restall it" it might even be free, but probably not. Give Yank a call and see what they will do for you.
Good Luck
AJ

how did you know ?
and it didn`t show on the dyno?

wanna learn thanks :)


Found out the expensive way process of elimination. We knew the car was down on power and just started checking things and replacing them. I wanted to upgrade the injectors anyway but unfortunatly they were the last thing I replaced and they were the problem.

Maaaaaaaan. Not news I wanted to here. :( I got this converter with 2000 miles on it. Should have been awesome. I hope that's not the deal. Does Yank have sort of guarantee or anything?

Yank is a very reputable company with quality products. I'm sure they would be willing to help you out with a restall. Give them a call and see what they say. I would go with something around 3200 stall speed. The ls6 intake is holding you back alot too. Probly a good 20 rwhp on this setup.

The fact that your a 98 with the LS1 intake and probably the worst LS1 heads takes a big toll. Get an intake, and save up for some nice heads, hell even look for some stock 01-02 heads and your numbers should go up.

Your graph is reading STD numbers for horsepower, if you want to compare apples to apples and be a little higher you need the SAE charts.

Look at the very top on this other one, it says CF:SAE yours is CF:STD which correlates to exactly where your at which is location.

Time for a rebuild of the tranny, freshen up and restall the converter too.

The fact that your a 98 with the LS1 intake and probably the worst LS1 heads takes a big toll. Get an intake, and save up for some nice heads, hell even look for some stock 01-02 heads and your numbers should go up.
Actually, I did the mods with a new motor, which is out of a 2000 vette. So the original motor is gone. I'm going to get ahold of Yank this week and see what they say. Thanks for all your help guys. I'll keep everybody posted.

id say converter,tranny or some otherv mechanical problem.ive seen boplt on numbers higher

im just curious to why everyone's sayin he needs a LOWER stall!?!?! my cam's nowhere near as big as an ms4 and people are tellin me to get a 3600-3800....the t rex barely has a bigger duration and it has LESS lift and thunder racing recommends a 4k + stall for that???


im confused...if he has it restalled, i dont see why he should go with a lower stall speed

Like I said on FAST... dyno #'s don't mean shit... get it to the track for times.

I just took it down the road and the stall WAS locking. It locked in both 3rd and drive and at 55 mph the engine speed was about 2000 rpm. It was idling kind of weird though. As I would slow down to stop from a cruise, it would idle really fast...like 1400-1500 rpm (that's compensating for the tach being off...it really said 1600-1700). When I got home and let it sit for about 20-30 sec. it finally slowed the idle back down to normal, which I think is set at about 850-860 rpm. It seems like my tranny may be slipping.

I made 360rwhp with the TR230 cam and a TP4400 converter. I don't think this converter is too loose at all. The vig3200 i had in the car before it was REDICULOUSLY tight.
Try to get the car to a board sponsor with a lot of ls1 experience, it couldn't hurt.

The guys that I took it to have a lot of experience with LS1's. Very knowledgeable people. I think the closest sponsor is like in Chicago, which is 8 hours from here.

you need a LS6 intake.

Might look into getting one once the vette is gone and I have some extra dough. I guess I'll aim for that, underdrive pulley, and a ported throttle body. Everybody think my tranny may be on the way out?

I think we need to get it to the track on Saturday! :drive: Weather permitting, of course....Damn rain.

i definetly say track time but i would say the engine needs to breath better. however, i have a M6 so i dont know about 4l60e dynos. i know my t-rex on a dyno dynamics read higher and that is the lowest riding dyno you can find.

WOW when I seen that I thought someone stole my video camera. I have a 98 TA and just got dynotuned there less than 2 weeks ago mine is also red. I put down 373 HP and 371 TQ through a M6 with 3.90s in a 10 bolt and a smaller cam and headers still ls1 intake. The Tuner is AWSOME great people. Your #s sound low but looks like it runs strong if you want I will try to post mine if you want to see.

I think we need to get it to the track on Saturday! :drive: Weather permitting, of course....Damn rain.
Hmm...I'm pretty broke right now after the tune and I don't have access to any DR's or anything right now either. :( Maybe in a couple weeks I can make it up there. I'll let you know.

WOW when I seen that I thought someone stole my video camera. I have a 98 TA and just got dynotuned there less than 2 weeks ago mine is also red. I put down 373 HP and 371 TQ through a M6 with 3.90s in a 10 bolt and a smaller cam and headers still ls1 intake. The Tuner is AWSOME great people. Your #s sound low but looks like it runs strong if you want I will try to post mine if you want to see.
Yeah that would be cool. Where are you at in So. IL? I'm in Cape.

Those are low numbers ut like some of the local guys have said, get it to the track. Sell your man juice if you need $$$ :drive:

:lol: I'd never be able to sell it...it's price less. ;) I took my car for a spin a few minutes ago and it still seems tranny related to me. I noticed two things during the drive.
1) I need new brakes. :)
2) The stall would lock, unlock, then lock up again after a few seconds during normal acceleration.
Take a look at the video I made during the drive. You can see the #2 item at around 22-23 sec. It also just doesn't feel like it's pulling like it should during hard acceleration. Check it out here (3rd Video):

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=679022

It really sounds like the stall. The shifts seem fine. It doesn't seem like they are slipping or anything. But the stall on the other hand sounds like its slipping its ass off! Get a new stall in that thing and go from there. The locking in and out definatley is not right.

Not really what I wanted to hear. :( Is there any sure-fire way that I can definitively say it is "X" problem? Some way to tell that it is the stall vs. the tranny?

But the stall on the other hand sounds like its slipping its ass off!

Yeah it does :(

(Sigh) :guns: ME :bigun2:

ya it sounds like its blowing through the stall. engine sounds healthy tho.

ya it sounds like its blowing through the stall. engine sounds healthy tho.
Little bit of bitter sweet info. I guess. Anybody else wants to verify, dont hesitate.

Sounds like from your thread that it's the stall. Did you replace your stall with a used one?

I have to agree.....its the STALL!

I see. Anybody know what a restall costs and if you would recommend a different stall speed?

Sounds like from your thread that it's the stall. Did you replace your stall with a used one?
Nope. Brand new, custom made stall for my setup. Though, gearing is probably the missing link to my combo like a few people mentioned. If the leakdown test turns out ok, I'll debate on sticking 3.73s in the stock 10 bolt. :suspiciou

Yeah I already have 3:73s.

Wow, that stall sounds like it's toasted. It's hard to tell without seeing the tach, but just by ear it's slipping waaaay too much. IIRC, Yank charges like 200-250 for freshening up a converter.....I wouldn't go with any lower stall speed than 3800 with that cam though.

Everybody else think I should keep the same stall speed?

Everybody else think I should keep the same stall speed?

No I don't. I think a 3200 would be ideal.

No I don't. I think a 3200 would be ideal.
With a MS4????? Are you nuts? If your going to stay NA then 4000 stall atleast. If your going to do spray then 3800. If you want a tighter stall on the street then go for SS4000 or if your more all out NA then a PT4000.
I have a F14 w/4.10s and after alot of research and phone calls went with a PT4000 with some extras from Yank. Call them, have them freshen up the stall and restall it a bit higher and while your at it. Have your tranny looked at, because you dont want to contaminate a new stall with stuff that could be floating around in the tranny.
Autos are not dyno queens. Most everyone knows that. Especially with low gears and big stalls. Its a tuning tool. Get that done, then go pull them wheels at the track!!

Ski

With a MS4????? Are you nuts? If your going to stay NA then 4000 stall atleast. If your going to do spray then 3800. If you want a tighter stall on the street then go for SS4000 or if your more all out NA then a PT4000.
I have a F14 w/4.10s and after alot of research and phone calls went with a PT4000 with some extras from Yank. Call them, have them freshen up the stall and restall it a bit higher and while your at it. Have your tranny looked at, because you dont want to contaminate a new stall with stuff that could be floating around in the tranny.
Autos are not dyno queens. Most everyone knows that. Especially with low gears and big stalls. Its a tuning tool. Get that done, then go pull them wheels at the track!!

Ski

I guess I'm nuts then. I don't see the need for a stall speed of more than 1k rpm above the power band of the cam itself. I have an ms4 in my personal car, and if it were an auto it would have at the most a 3600. Its almost like wasting power flashing the stall that far into the power band. Just my opinion though. Another thing to remember is that a stall will almost never be exactly what they say it is. The more torque you make the more the stall is gonna work.

I guess I'm nuts then. I don't see the need for a stall speed of more than 1k rpm above the power band of the cam itself. I have an ms4 in my personal car, and if it were an auto it would have at the most a 3600. Its almost like wasting power flashing the stall that far into the power band. Just my opinion though. Another thing to remember is that a stall will almost never be exactly what they say it is. The more torque you make the more the stall is gonna work.

You're not nuts, just misinformed :)
The MS4 "powerband" you're talking about is the 2300-6800rpm range that TSP lists for this cam. That means the cam STARTS making power at 2300rpm, but that's not where PEAK power is made. You want your stall speed to be a few hundred rpm below PEAK TORQUE.....that way when you mash the gas the converter flashes right to the point in the powerband where you're making the most power. That's the whole point of a stall---get to the meat of the powerband quickly. Look at this MS4 dyno curve: http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e377/jaypee_21/Dyno1.jpg
The mods are very similar to schtick's car and although the numbers are kinda low, it's fairly good representation of the MS4. See where the tq peak is?....almost 5k rpm......3800rpm is on the low end of stall speed for this cam, 4000-4400 would probably be more fitting on a N/A application. Making sense? :)

Get your trans to a good trans shop and have the converter opened up. I would agree that a 3800-4200 stall is in order for the MS4. I have seen low numbers like that do to a bad trans.

Thanks for the help guys. I'm going to start digging into the tranny and stall whenever I get time/money. Hopefully, that won't be too much longer. Once I get some things figured out for sure, I'll post it up. Thanks again.

Bad thing about this site is you get 50 different opinions and 80% of them are wrong. I'm not saying I know what is right but I can tell you your numbers are very low, even with all things considered (ls1 intake, unlocked converter, etc.). Dynos do mean something despite what some people want to believe. They are not a guarantee to make you go a certain ET and MPH but they tell you a LOT.

My guess is your biggest problem is probably the converter. I say this because looking at your dyno curve it appears your converter is flashing well past its designed stall speed. Maybe you are the type that need to be told what to do. So how about this. Send the freaking converter to Yank and have them "refresh" it. That's what you should have done when you bought it anyway. I did it when I bought my YPT 4400. I think they charged me $250 or $300. It was well worth it for me. While you are at it, have them change the stall speed to 4000. I'd go no lower than 3600.

Bottom line is you have a lot of work to do on your setup. You need a better intake also.

You know yourself the car is not right so just listen to your gut, make some decisions and be prepared to spend a little bit of money. Shortcuts are not a good recipe for making a car fast.

+1 on the 4000+ stall and the ls6 intake

there's not a big gain from ls1-ls6 with stock cam and heads... but when you put a monster cam in the car - the ls6 will be worth A LOT more h.p.

i had a bad converter in my car... it ate h.p. horribly. i believe FANTAZ28 gained a shitload of rwhp just by changing converters (inefficient vs. efficient). so make sure you have Yank go through it.

many people think the converter is slipping too much, so i'd say start there. then see where you're at after that. if your power is still down - do the ls6 (or FAST) intake.

Bad thing about this site is you get 50 different opinions and 80% of them are wrong. I'm not saying I know what is right but I can tell you your numbers are very low, even with all things considered (ls1 intake, unlocked converter, etc.). Dynos do mean something despite what some people want to believe. They are not a guarantee to make you go a certain ET and MPH but they tell you a LOT.

My guess is your biggest problem is probably the converter. I say this because looking at your dyno curve it appears your converter is flashing well past its designed stall speed. Maybe you are the type that need to be told what to do. So how about this. Send the freaking converter to Yank and have them "refresh" it. That's what you should have done when you bought it anyway. I did it when I bought my YPT 4400. I think they charged me $250 or $300. It was well worth it for me. While you are at it, have them change the stall speed to 4000. I'd go no lower than 3600.

Bottom line is you have a lot of work to do on your setup. You need a better intake also.

You know yourself the car is not right so just listen to your gut, make some decisions and be prepared to spend a little bit of money. Shortcuts are not a good recipe for making a car fast.
It's not so much that I need someone to tell me what to do, I am just very new to the mods that I have on my car now. I've never had anything this hopped up before and I am a rookie at performance stuff. My plan is to take out the stall and tranny and get them both checked out. I'll probably go ahead and get an LS6 intake, underdrive pulley, and ported throttle body but it may be a while due to my financial situation at the time.

If it was an all out drag car or spent alot of time at the track then I would say go 4k on the stall. But from what I gathered the is more of a weekend cruiser than anything. I wasn't misinformed about the power band. I know exactly what you mean, but I was stating that the cam starts to make power at 2300 and falls off at 6800. So why would you NEED a stall speed of 4k or more? I think a 3200-3600 would be more than fine. Would be better for driveability, and still work at the track. I have installed plenty of these cams in auto cars, and have seen 3400 converters actually flash 3800-4000 on a regular basis. Even brand new converters will do this especially on heavy cars.

I think this verifies that there's a problem.
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=682315

I think this verifies that there's a problem.
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=682315

M6 cars always dyno higher than autos.

I know that, but 100hp more....I think not. Even though he has a couple more mods than me I still don't see an extra 100hp over an auto.

Take it to the track and see what it does. If your mph is at around 114 in a 1/4, then the power is there. If not, then there's an issue. I'm going this Wed.

I guess it WOULD make sense to try the track thing before tearing it apart. I'll have to see if I can borrow some tires from someone though. I don't think my deteriorating Nittos are going to be able to handle it. :lol:

I know that, but 100hp more....I think not. Even though he has a couple more mods than me I still don't see an extra 100hp over an auto.

Your not looking at the whole picture here. Its not just an auto vs manual thing. His is an 02 (way better heads right off the bat) plus FULL bolt on's. All you had was headers and a lid. You also have the worst ls1 production heads that exist (I think). Factor in the problem with your stall and all the bolt on's, and I can honestly see how that car would make 100 more rwhp. Your car and the other car is just not a fair comparison. By far.

The motor is out of a 2000 vette...it's not the original 98 engine. The heads from 00-02 should be the same right?

The motor is out of a 2000 vette...it's not the original 98 engine. The heads from 00-02 should be the same right?


I believe they are the 853 casting heads (not sure) and 01-02 are 241 castings. Either way just do the basics an auto will dyno anywhere from 5-10% less than a six speed car. Add an ls6 intake (15+ hp) then a ported tb, underdrive pulley and fix the converter. With the converter the way it is now with the rest of the bolt on's you need you could probly see 370 rwhp. Fix the converter problem and you might hit close to 400 rwhp. On average we see 385+ with auto cars and unlocked stall converters. MS4 cam only that is.

Gotcha. I think I'm going to take it up to Gateway once before I start tearing it apart. You mind checking it out if I make it up there?

sounds like the convertor is loose as hell.

hows it feel on the street?

I'm very inexperienced with stall converters but from what it feels like, it seems to be quite loose on the street too. Hopefully I'll be able to make it to the track soon. If 1/8 mile times would tell me anything, that would be a lot easier. The nearest 1/8 mile track is only about 25 miles away...nearest 1/4 mile track is about 2 hrs away.

1/8 mile would be fine. Your 60 foot and e.t./mph would tell you something.

Cool...I'll try that out first then, post up the results, and then go from there.

What kind of times and MPH should I expect?

My SS with an air lid only put down 310 on the motor and 359 on a 75 shot. I ran a 8.56 @ 83 motor, then on spray I ran 7.89 @ 92. That should give you an idea, but that is stock no convertor and no cam. I keep checking back in because TSP is about to ship me my MS4!!! Let us know how it goes!

I'll keep that in mind and let you know what happens. Anybody else got any 1/8 mile times?