Best way to tune spark table
03-26-2007, 07:34 PM
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Best way to tune spark table What is the best way to tune the spark table for all of the cells? I would imagine it being difficult to tune each cell and get it right. How does everyone else do it? I will be tuning my 232/236 112 cam with 57cc heads and any pointers on how to get the spark table real good would be helpful.
I was thinking increase unitl it knocks but there are so many cells that would take forver. Or should i just increase the entire spark table by a lot so I get knock retard in all cells and then just decrese the cells by the amounf of knock retard i got?
I was thinking increase unitl it knocks but there are so many cells that would take forver. Or should i just increase the entire spark table by a lot so I get knock retard in all cells and then just decrese the cells by the amounf of knock retard i got?
03-26-2007, 08:29 PM
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don't increase a bunch and then get hell of a lot of KR....
typical 00' models i have seen runn between 24-28 degrees timing WOT in the upper areas. otherwise make sure it has smooth transitions.. you DO NOT want spikes
typical 00' models i have seen runn between 24-28 degrees timing WOT in the upper areas. otherwise make sure it has smooth transitions.. you DO NOT want spikes
03-26-2007, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by ZL1Killa
don't increase a bunch and then get hell of a lot of KR....
typical 00' models i have seen runn between 24-28 degrees timing WOT in the upper areas. otherwise make sure it has smooth transitions.. you DO NOT want spikes
typical 00' models i have seen runn between 24-28 degrees timing WOT in the upper areas. otherwise make sure it has smooth transitions.. you DO NOT want spikes
03-26-2007, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Rhino79
I would say you could add around 2-3 degrees on the entire table probably and definetly in the cruise area of the table.
03-26-2007, 09:03 PM
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I just smoothed and increased the entire table by like 3 degrees. I have to different dyno tests going from stock and then the three degrees. No difference in power whatsoever.....I've talked to quite a few high volume tuners adding advance to the stock table isn't going to make much difference. In fact add too much and you will lose power. I think mine lost power when I tried 29 degrees. I run 26.0 - 26.5 at WOT now....stock is 24.
Adding in the lower range does help streetablity though.
Adding in the lower range does help streetablity though.
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03-26-2007, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by cantdrv65
I just smoothed and increased the entire table by like 3 degrees. I have to different dyno tests going from stock and then the three degrees. No difference in power whatsoever.....I've talked to quite a few high volume tuners adding advance to the stock table isn't going to make much difference. In fact add too much and you will lose power. I think mine lost power when I tried 29 degrees. I run 26.0 - 26.5 at WOT now....stock is 24.
Adding in the lower range does help streetablity though.
Adding in the lower range does help streetablity though.
Last edited by brad8266; 03-26-2007 at 09:15 PM.
03-26-2007, 09:25 PM
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2-3 degrees was a conservative figure, I have tuned cars that cruise around 40-42* of timing, and they barely required any throttle effort, definetly helped the MPG too!
03-27-2007, 05:57 AM
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You can log KR against the spark table and remove where it occurs. BUT, to do it properly you need to hit the dyno. I spent around 1 year working on spark, but 1hr on the dyno showed me the pointlessness of it all. Timing was up to 10* out from max tq in places.
Save your time and get fueling sorted then head to the dyno.
This is where a realtime solution works well. Get the dyno operator to load up the engine and hold it in a cell, then adjust timing until you get max tq, then move on.
efilive has a good tune tool and when used with roadrunner makes this easy. You can get the tune too to move to the active load cell and blend the area not just the cell. This makes the process easier and faster, as you can imagine. tuning each cell can take like 30sec-1min to zero in on pk tq. Just go in 1* increments, not like 0.1* or anything silly. I spent about 1.5hrs and did most part throttle cells and got loads more power.
Save your time and get fueling sorted then head to the dyno.
This is where a realtime solution works well. Get the dyno operator to load up the engine and hold it in a cell, then adjust timing until you get max tq, then move on.
efilive has a good tune tool and when used with roadrunner makes this easy. You can get the tune too to move to the active load cell and blend the area not just the cell. This makes the process easier and faster, as you can imagine. tuning each cell can take like 30sec-1min to zero in on pk tq. Just go in 1* increments, not like 0.1* or anything silly. I spent about 1.5hrs and did most part throttle cells and got loads more power.
03-27-2007, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by ringram
You can log KR against the spark table and remove where it occurs. BUT, to do it properly you need to hit the dyno. I spent around 1 year working on spark, but 1hr on the dyno showed me the pointlessness of it all. Timing was up to 10* out from max tq in places.
Save your time and get fueling sorted then head to the dyno.
This is where a realtime solution works well. Get the dyno operator to load up the engine and hold it in a cell, then adjust timing until you get max tq, then move on.
efilive has a good tune tool and when used with roadrunner makes this easy. You can get the tune too to move to the active load cell and blend the area not just the cell. This makes the process easier and faster, as you can imagine. tuning each cell can take like 30sec-1min to zero in on pk tq. Just go in 1* increments, not like 0.1* or anything silly. I spent about 1.5hrs and did most part throttle cells and got loads more power.
Save your time and get fueling sorted then head to the dyno.
This is where a realtime solution works well. Get the dyno operator to load up the engine and hold it in a cell, then adjust timing until you get max tq, then move on.
efilive has a good tune tool and when used with roadrunner makes this easy. You can get the tune too to move to the active load cell and blend the area not just the cell. This makes the process easier and faster, as you can imagine. tuning each cell can take like 30sec-1min to zero in on pk tq. Just go in 1* increments, not like 0.1* or anything silly. I spent about 1.5hrs and did most part throttle cells and got loads more power.
And there isnt another way to do realtime without a roadrunner is there? realtime would be great but im not about to buy it just to tune spark.
Last edited by brad8266; 03-27-2007 at 06:38 AM.
03-27-2007, 07:29 PM
#13
HPTuners has the ability to add/subtract in real time too. The downside is you need to remember what you did because the change doesn't get loaded permanently in the pcm until you adjust the table and upload the bin. I'd printout a grid with rpm and flow and then go through a sample of points using the method shown by ringman. Get off the dyno, load the changes and smooth it out.
03-27-2007, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Ragtop 99
HPTuners has the ability to add/subtract in real time too. The downside is you need to remember what you did because the change doesn't get loaded permanently in the pcm until you adjust the table and upload the bin. I'd printout a grid with rpm and flow and then go through a sample of points using the method shown by ringman. Get off the dyno, load the changes and smooth it out.
I havent been able to find much info on the realtime process in HPT so if you could just explain it a little more I would appreciate it. if i can make the realtime changes while in the middle of running the dyno and see how it reacts that is all I need, i can make note of what to do and make the permanent changes and reflash afterwards.
You can not tune low rpm/midrange of KR sensor's.Sometimes lugging it in 6th gear can help tune midrange nicely.
03-28-2007, 01:15 AM
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Here's how I did mine a couple of years back.
First, you want to set up the knock retard to not
be so jumpy and to dissipate quicker. I think I cut
the attack by half and increased the decay 4X. It
just makes it not suppress so much of what you'll
be trying to find.
Now you do broad-envelope-driving, logging KR and
the CylAir and the usual suspects. Look at the spark
retard histogram max value. Anywhere it's 0 you add
2 degrees and anywhere it's nonzero you subtract one
to the HO timing table (and be sure you keep the LO
table synced up). Maybe you can find a cuter than
manual way to do this from the histograms. But manual
works.
Do it again. And again. Eventually you get to where
you are tickling KR all over the place. When you are
done playing, subtract 3 degrees from the HO and
maybe another 4 from that, to make the new LO.
You want to remember that this will all want another
looking-at, this summer when the pavement gets
toasty warm. But you might want to throw that
onto the temperature adders if you did the main
table tweaking at your "reference temperatures".
First, you want to set up the knock retard to not
be so jumpy and to dissipate quicker. I think I cut
the attack by half and increased the decay 4X. It
just makes it not suppress so much of what you'll
be trying to find.
Now you do broad-envelope-driving, logging KR and
the CylAir and the usual suspects. Look at the spark
retard histogram max value. Anywhere it's 0 you add
2 degrees and anywhere it's nonzero you subtract one
to the HO timing table (and be sure you keep the LO
table synced up). Maybe you can find a cuter than
manual way to do this from the histograms. But manual
works.
Do it again. And again. Eventually you get to where
you are tickling KR all over the place. When you are
done playing, subtract 3 degrees from the HO and
maybe another 4 from that, to make the new LO.
You want to remember that this will all want another
looking-at, this summer when the pavement gets
toasty warm. But you might want to throw that
onto the temperature adders if you did the main
table tweaking at your "reference temperatures".
03-28-2007, 12:49 PM
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Presuming "best" is hours on a load dyno (easy to find and
cheap to rent
).
From your experience of this sort what can you tell us about
the relation of MBT to onset of KR, presuming a normal-type
fueling and compression? All I've found is some rules-of-thumb,
best torque about 2 degrees before ping (hence my -3 final
adjustment from a +1 KR populated timing table). I would like
to know whether a "normal" LS1 follows this and whether the
non-WOT load-points respond the same as WOT, or if there
may be a higher spread at lower cylinder pressures etc.
cheap to rent
).From your experience of this sort what can you tell us about
the relation of MBT to onset of KR, presuming a normal-type
fueling and compression? All I've found is some rules-of-thumb,
best torque about 2 degrees before ping (hence my -3 final
adjustment from a +1 KR populated timing table). I would like
to know whether a "normal" LS1 follows this and whether the
non-WOT load-points respond the same as WOT, or if there
may be a higher spread at lower cylinder pressures etc.
03-28-2007, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Rhino79
2-3 degrees was a conservative figure, I have tuned cars that cruise around 40-42* of timing, and they barely required any throttle effort, definetly helped the MPG too!