Forced Induction - 6 Bolt AFR heads




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427
04-02-2007, 03:21 PM
A couple of guys said they would like to follow along as we add the two additional bolts on my AFR heads for my turbo engine.

The pics show how the heads look today. The welding around the cylinder is so I can move my o-rings as I am also going to run a larger bore than my old 352ci engine. The outer lug will be drilled for a pass thru bolt that will thread into the block side. The upper build up of weld will be drilled and tapped, that bolt will come up thru the deck.
This is a ton of work to do, but I have so much time and money in these heads it is worth it for me. These heads have already had extensive welding to add strength to the deck and allow for larger valvesprings, as well as porting by ET and larger titanium intake valves and inconel ex. I just went this direction to save money!!


Kurt


98turbls1
04-02-2007, 03:33 PM
My god!!! What do these things run for??? :eek2:

Tiago
04-02-2007, 03:36 PM
holy shit that looks intensive lol :)


SSilverSSurfer
04-02-2007, 03:47 PM
holy shit that looks intensive lol :)
you still wanna do that? :)

Tiago
04-02-2007, 03:52 PM
you still wanna do that? :)


we'll just have to see what the final product is :jest:

kp
04-02-2007, 04:01 PM
Did you have the water holes welded previously Kurt? My AFR heads dont look like that..

GrahamHill
04-02-2007, 04:15 PM
'Bout time to drill and mill looks like :) How common is it to add material to the heads?

Tiago
04-02-2007, 04:16 PM
Did you have the water holes welded previously Kurt? My AFR heads dont look like that..
mine don't either:

http://www.force-fed-fabrications.com/images/AFR/P1010028.JPG

GrahamHill
04-02-2007, 04:20 PM
Probably what he meant by: "These heads have already had extensive welding to add strength to the deck and allow for larger valvesprings, "


(guessing though)

kp
04-02-2007, 04:31 PM
Probably what he meant by: "These heads have already had extensive welding to add strength to the deck and allow for larger valvesprings, "


(guessing though)

Missed the 'deck' part of that sentence alltogether lol. Thats what you get for having 3 different forums open :)

GrahamHill
04-02-2007, 04:32 PM
Pretty neat shat either way though :) I LOVE things like this where racers step outside the box and make it happen!

Speed
04-02-2007, 04:38 PM
I had wondered if that was possible. Looks like I'll buy a pair instead of building them lol. What block is that?

NA$TY-TA
04-02-2007, 05:11 PM
Sweet...............

JPMuscle
04-02-2007, 05:14 PM
Damn... jus Damn.. thats boss right there

427
04-02-2007, 05:14 PM
The deck of the head already had extensive welding to help it hold up to high hp runs.
The additional welding is worth it to me if I can squeeze another 300hp out of it. I will be happy if the gaskets will live 40 runs at 2000hp, at least for this year.
The block is a Dart std deck 4.125 bore billet.


Kurt

Tiago
04-02-2007, 06:34 PM
very nice /borat


should be happy as a pig in shit at 1500 hp then.:)

SScam68
04-02-2007, 09:10 PM
Heat treating feasible to improve material strength?

LASTLS1
04-02-2007, 09:40 PM
Beats the hell of out of my idea! ( Putting some ratcheting tie downs around the motor and cranking them down!) :jest:

Nice job Kurt!!!

JPMuscle
04-02-2007, 10:00 PM
Beats the hell of out of my idea! ( Putting some ratcheting tie downs around the motor and cranking them down!) :jest:

Nice job Kurt!!!



could jus weld the heads to the block and be eone with it... :jest:

SScam68
04-02-2007, 11:52 PM
could jus weld the heads to the block and be eone with it... :jest:
:jest: :jest: :jest:

LASTLS1
04-03-2007, 09:12 AM
:jest: :jest: :jest:


Don't laugh, I'm at the point where I'll try anything! :judge:

MIGHTYMOUSE
04-03-2007, 12:21 PM
nice job kurt, and i do appreciate the extra steps you take to season that block for me

427
04-03-2007, 12:39 PM
I think I am going to put all the bolts in, then weld the heads on, then add the ratchet straps around everything. Then the crank will hit the pavement!!!


Kurt

Tiago
04-03-2007, 12:44 PM
I think I am going to put all the bolts in, then weld the heads on, then add the ratchet straps around everything. Then the crank will hit the pavement!!!


Kurt


:jest: :jest: :jest: :jest: :jest:

I don't want that :(

InconFormula
04-03-2007, 01:41 PM
Hey, get off the intraweb and find my dry sump tank!! :jest: :jest: I don't know who you got doing the welding on those heads but it looks like crap. :jest: I take it this setup will be in Whitey's car this season? :devil:

smokinHawk
04-03-2007, 02:10 PM
Ive thought about just welding an extra tab like that to my block and heads (not the internal one) then drill and thread a bolt in there for alittle extra clamping force
something i could do myself with the engine out and wouldnt cost to much.

do you think that would help just having the extra outside bolt?

stevieturbo
04-03-2007, 06:10 PM
With that amount of work...wouldnt it be easier to adopt some sort of Wills ring arrangement if it was do-able ?

kp
04-03-2007, 08:26 PM
I think I am going to put all the bolts in, then weld the heads on, then add the ratchet straps around everything. Then the crank will hit the pavement!!!


Kurt

If you do the ratchet straps right they can hold the crank in as well, kill 2 birds with one stone ;)

427
04-03-2007, 09:50 PM
Tiago, your no fun!
Steve, The tank part number was wrong, I got my guys on it.
Smokin, Any head clamping you could add would help. Not sure that the six bolt will be the cure all, but it should push us on to a new problem, and that will be refreshing.
Stevieturbo, Not sure what a wills ring is??
KP, You are always thinking! Thats what I like about you.


Kurt

LASTLS1
04-03-2007, 10:24 PM
Tiago, your no fun!
Steve, The tank part number was wrong, I got my guys on it.
Smokin, Any head clamping you could add would help. Not sure that the six bolt will be the cure all, but it should push us on to a new problem, and that will be refreshing.
Stevieturbo, Not sure what a wills ring is??
KP, You are always thinking! Thats what I like about you.


Kurt


I can't take it. PM me a price on a LSx rotating with ET heads.


Thanks!

Jason99T/A
04-03-2007, 10:33 PM
Nice work Kurt! Should be interesting to see how the 6-bolt setup turns out!

Jason

INTMD8
04-03-2007, 10:45 PM
Kurt, how about a lug on the ends of each cylinder head so 1,7,2 and 8 can have 7 bolts per cyl :)

kp
04-03-2007, 10:51 PM
I can't take it. PM me a price on a LSx rotating with ET heads.


Thanks!


Doh, sellout :D

427
04-13-2007, 09:17 AM
Update. The heads are now machined flat, a few pics included.
I also took a picture with the mylar gasket print laid on top of the head so you can see the bolt locations. After they are machined I will remove some of the excess material on the outside boss.

Kurt

Tiago
04-13-2007, 10:56 AM
Looks excellent. If you have even a ball park estimate to add the two bolt location please PM me so I can decide weather or not to keep these heads ;)

INTMD8
04-13-2007, 10:45 PM
Looks very nice. What size fasteners do you plan on using for the top and bottom row?

NA$TY-TA
04-14-2007, 09:57 AM
Kurt,

With the time you have into those heads do you think it would just be cheaper to sell the heads people have now and buy a set of 6 Bolt heads??

When will GMPP 6 Bolt heads be ready??? Or are they already??? Am i missing something???

Kyle

MIGHTYMOUSE
04-14-2007, 11:18 AM
has the price of the aluminum block and 6 bolt heads come down yet? i'm ready to purchase!

Tony Mamo @ AFR
04-14-2007, 11:47 AM
I hate to be the bearer of sobering news but IMO you just made issues for yourself more than helped yourself out.

Consider the heat treat in the head deck to be now gone....instead of a rock hard deck pressing on the fire ring to seal the combustion pressure the fire ring of the gasket will now sink into the head deck (because its soft) reducing the pressure around the ring itself creating a situation that could cause a loss of cylinder pressure past the gasket and possibly into your cooling system (water jackets).

The standard 4 bolt design with our thick .750 head deck, the proper gasket and good fasteners in an engine tuned right (no detonation and high cylinder pressure spikes) could reliably make into the four digits without an issue.

To properly heat treat the head again would be costly and I believe you would have to remove all the seats and guides.

Im curious how this deal pans out and the work you did is innovative, but I would get some other opinions concerning the heat treat which with all that welding and the heat it generates is certain to have been compromised. Aluminun heads will only be effective if the aluminum has the proper rockwell....otherwise you will be chasing issues with them for a very long time.

Feel free to call me at AFR if you like next week....

Regards,
Tony
(661)257-8124

NA$TY-TA
04-14-2007, 12:06 PM
I hate to be the bearer of sobering news but IMO you just made issues for yourself more than helped yourself out.

Consider the heat treat in the head deck to be now gone....instead of a rock hard deck pressing on the fire ring to seal the combustion pressure the fire ring of the gasket will now sink into the head deck (because its soft) reducing the pressure around the ring itself creating a situation that could cause a loss of cylinder pressure past the gasket and possibly into your cooling system (water jackets).

The standard 4 bolt design with our thick .750 head deck, the proper gasket and good fasteners in an engine tuned right (no detonation and high cylinder pressure spikes) could reliably make into the four digits without an issue.

To properly heat treat the head again would be costly and I believe you would have to remove all the seats and guides.

Im curious how this deal pans out and the work you did is innovative, but I would get some other opinions concerning the heat treat which with all that welding and the heat it generates is certain to have been compromised. Aluminun heads will only be effective if the aluminum has the proper rockwell....otherwise you will be chasing issues with them for a very long time.

Feel free to call me at AFR if you like next week....

Regards,
Tony
(661)257-8124


Ill agree with some things you said there Tony, But so far no ones heads have proven to Hold BIG Boost at the track......

""The standard 4 bolt design with our thick .750 head deck, the proper gasket and good fasteners in an engine tuned right (no detonation and high cylinder pressure spikes) could reliably make into the four digits without an issue.""

Now making 4 digits on the dyno and beating the car at the track are two totally different things.

People are still running into the issue of pressurizing the coolant system making big power and NOONES heads have totally stopped it...... make more power and faster ET's then thinner deack heads,,,, yes but not stopped it....
and i think you know W2W has pushed the LSx motor harder then anyone has...(faster also)
Thats why everyone is ditching the stock 4 bolt set-up and praying the new 6 bolt stuff does the trick...... My self included.....

Thats my .02.
And in no way am i downing your product....

Kyle

427
04-14-2007, 12:09 PM
Jim, we will be using a stud that has 7/16 thread into the aluminum then tapers down to 3/8 for the fastener, this is the same system we use on a BB chevy and has worked well in the past.

Nasty, You would be better off to just buy a All Pro or ET 6 bolt head from the start, but I already own these heads and have lots of time making them work for me in the past, so I decided to take the next step.

David, I was going to just give you my block and heads last week, but I could not find your phone number so I decided to keep them!!

Tony, I had to weld the deck up on these heads when they were new to make them work for my intended use and they did great(1700hp-6 second 1/4). I have access to a process that works for me and many others for head repair. You are right that the heads in stock form can make 4 digit power, but I want the first digit to be a "2", and stock they don't have a chance.


Kurt

NA$TY-TA
04-14-2007, 01:02 PM
You are right that the heads in stock form can make 4 digit power, but I want the first digit to be a "2", and stock they don't have a chance.
Kurt


Thats an awsome Sig Quote right there Kurt...... :jest:

Thanks for the reply.... I PMed ET Performance on a set.....

Kyle

Tony Mamo @ AFR
04-14-2007, 04:01 PM
Tony, I had to weld the deck up on these heads when they were new to make them work for my intended use and they did great(1700hp-6 second 1/4). I have access to a process that works for me and many others for head repair. You are right that the heads in stock form can make 4 digit power, but I want the first digit to be a "2", and stock they don't have a chance.


Kurt
Sounds like a winner to me Kurt....LOL

And I agree a four bolt arrangement wouldn't suffice with a "2" in front of the four digits...

If you welded up a bare casting I could have sent it to heat treat for you after you were done machining it. If you want to blow the guides and seats out when your done I could probably still help you with that.

Either way good luck hitting the duece figure your trying to achieve.

Cheers,
Tony

427
04-14-2007, 10:39 PM
Tony, Thanks for the offer, I will keep it in mind. You guys thinking of adding a 6 bolt head to your lineup?

Kurt

MIGHTYMOUSE
04-14-2007, 11:45 PM
don't tease me... you know i'm a good source for destructive testing and i have reasonable rates

Noyzee
04-15-2007, 08:47 PM
kurt, i did the same welding on the inside of my afr's. helped alot. i think i talked to you about it a couple years ago.
i found my car to work |(on spray) well with the heads welded, the copper spray on the gaskets, and l-19's tq'ed to like 90ft pounds, i pushed no water last year, and made just under 1,000 rwhp with spray. i think with 2 extra bolts we may be good
let me know how this works out because i may do the same to mine if it works. i also have some $$ into my afr's, and my pistions are being made to fit the cc of the head, so if it works, a little welding, and im good to go..

good luck with the 2,xxx!!!!!!!!