View Full Version : WARHAWK or C5R-WHICH DO YOU PREFER?


MerlinPro
04-12-2007, 01:02 PM
Among the many Warhawk design priorities was the need to give serious racers the strength they needed at high power levels. To that end, much thought was given to the water jacketing and it's cores. The chosen solution was to encircle the bores and stud bosses for maximum strength and run the water around the outer perimeter. Much more parent aluminum around the bores and no cooling efficiency was sacrificed as this is an aluminum piece. We are comparing aluminum choices for the consumer.

Illustrated here is the C5R. The deck has been milled .600 to expose the core. Note that the jacket encircles the bores and isolates the stud bosses.
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m84/merlinx_photo/7462A.jpg
Note how the aluminum thickness is only the circumference of the bore when seen through this block window.
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m84/merlinx_photo/IMG_7463.jpg
The bottom of C5R's bores in the crankcase. This block sent it's sleeves to Heaven just over 900HP. True-it was designed for endurance racing at 600-700 power levels.
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m84/merlinx_photo/IMG_7464.jpg

Seen here is a 9.24 Warhawk. The deck was .625 thick and we cut it a total of 1.100 for this model. The bore is 4.120 and the sleeve is .076. Total material is .284 nominal between bores. Clearly evident is the jacket running around the perimeter and the integrity of the bore/stud area.
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m84/merlinx_photo/IMG_7456.jpg
Note the details and thickness of material.
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m84/merlinx_photo/IMG_7455.jpg
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m84/merlinx_photo/IMG_7457.jpg
Compare the crankcase area:The entire bore area is solid, not scalloped around the bores.
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m84/merlinx_photo/IMG_7460.jpg
No, we don't think that C5R is a fair comparison for us anyway. Especially with C5R costing more than Warhawk. :eyes:
We're confident from a power-level standpoint that the iron LS-X is-or rather, may be-the mark. Yes, it will be cheaper and will make big displacement-we will "only" get to 481 with our 9.8 deck. But it better handle bigger power than Warhawk to overcome the 100 lb difference.
When they become available we'll have to cut one of those open...

Stang's Bane
04-12-2007, 01:06 PM
Looks good. Personally, I feel that your block and the LSX block are not direct competitors. Each will have it's own niche market, and be very successful in it.

MeentSS02
04-12-2007, 01:08 PM
Thanks for the pics...when the time comes, I'd love to have a Warhawk block in my car, but for my purposes (street cruiser/fun car), it might be a bit much. At least we now have options...

When will you have your Warhawk/LS7X head results?

ace67
04-12-2007, 01:37 PM
Warhawk block is the best solution currently but you guys have to make it available soon ..... you loose lots of customers the way these blocks has been delayed all the time , its almost like a bad joke when you speak with ppl that ordered a block 1 year ago and you can see them selling the contracts on the forums thats tragic. Dont say that you have the blocks ready until they are or ppl will just be pissed as it is right now and go another direction.

MerlinPro
04-12-2007, 01:43 PM
ace,
You are ABSOLUTELY right-all the way from Sweden. We have delivered 20 or so and are waiting for 40 more to knock down some of the 100 block back order. Beginning May we'll get regular foundry deliveries.

slow95z
04-12-2007, 02:15 PM
anything is better than the C5R block, i know 3 people who have dropped sleeves. i love the part where the full cylinder is enclosed.

gun5l1ng3r
04-12-2007, 03:01 PM
Where is your foundry located?
Is the Warhawk built here in the USA, with TIGHT quality control standards?
Is there a write-up somewhere showing how an Al block is made?

EDIT: I don't mean to sound like a jerk, I am just curious how products like this are made and brought to market...

35thUCF
04-12-2007, 03:10 PM
i would like to have more info on the production process also

MerlinPro
04-12-2007, 03:16 PM
gun,
Our foundry is proprietary information. All our stuff is to QS 9000. We're looking for 1200-1800HP-does that sound like poor quality control?
Our tolerance level is +/-.0005 to GM's.
How much power are you planning? Do you always equate "...built here in the USA" with "TIGHT quality control standards"?
Yes, there is a write-up somewhere. If we show you how we build it will you buy one?

Hey, I saw your edit right after I posted a reply. Not trying to be a Bozo either-but we get this stuff all the time. Some guys want the molecular content of our stuff and WHY.
Honest-some things I can't talk about-but I promise, our stuff does NOT come from Japan, China, India, Korea, Taiwan or Latvia.
And making this stuff is a really big PIA process and huge expense-especially when done in small numbers. GM puts more engines in taxis in ONE city than we sell blocks.
The pattern, tooling, casting, machining and marketing of this stuff is hugely complex and there are probably a ton of books on the subject. :judge:

1997bird
04-12-2007, 03:32 PM
I like the priority main oil system revision that was designed into the block. You have my vote and a future sell!

gun5l1ng3r
04-12-2007, 03:41 PM
I didn't mean to sound mean.
I was just curious where they were made, thats all. I didn't know that where your block is poured was private info, or I wouldn't have asked.
I do find that parts made here in the US have, on average, better quality and quality control, at a greater cost, than parts made overseas.

If I could afford to build a motor, I would likely buy an Al block and the Warhawk would be my first choice.

All I was doing in my first post was trying to gain knowledge of how the best parts in the world are designed and manufactured. I like to try and learn everything I can about engines in general so that was all I intended.

Thanks for the time though, and have a good day!:)

MerlinPro
04-12-2007, 05:26 PM
gun,
Really appreciate your clarification and kind words about our stuff. We are busting ass to make costly parts to a very high standard to give value to the buyer.
Much better when there's no misunderstanding on the web. Good day to you too :)

Richard@WCCH
04-12-2007, 10:19 PM
From the photos, the Warhawk is a very impressive block casting. :judge:
You guys deserve a big high five for taking the time to engineer a technically difficult part. The operating demands on parts such as blocks are increasing year after year and that's a major reason why we don't see dozens of manufacturers stepping in to try to market similar products. My hat's off to you guys for your efforts. :cheers:

Coming from a cylinder head guy, do you think you and GM could come together on one common 6 bolt setup? :jest:
Thanks for the thread and your contribution to the Gen 3 community. :drive:

Richard :)

chuntington101
04-13-2007, 01:44 AM
MerlinPro, i think your work is great. your block looks really good and, when you can get the back orders down, should be a winner! :)

also i dont think you need to worry too much about the LSx block at the min. luckly you have targeted a diffrent segment to the one GM was looking for. also i think if you went the same way with this block asa you have others, ie creat engines, you will be on to a winner.

on the main in the USA thing. im form the UK so i dont like to coment too much. but seriously guy the sweeds are great enginers. and as long as they meet the requierments then there shoukd really be NO worry thats the blocks not cast on your back door.

thanks for the very intresting pics.

Chris.

slow95z
04-13-2007, 06:28 AM
hey chuntington, what he was saying about not made in the usa had nothing to do with western europe. odds are if its for sale in america but not made here it came from east asia which doesnt give you the best quality.

MerlinPro
04-13-2007, 07:17 AM
Richard and Chris,
We really appreciate the kind words. Bill and our guys work really hard to think things out on this stuff. The public seldom gets to see inside and all the engineering involved and I thought they should in this case.
I also found out it takes one full day to cut 1.1 off a block and sleeves on a Rottler. :eek2:
As for your thought on 6-bolt patterns-I've already experienced seismic activity on the other thread... :(

slow95z
04-13-2007, 08:51 AM
yeah, lets all just drop the whole 6 head bolt thing lol.

ScottyRocket
04-13-2007, 02:49 PM
Unfortunately i work in the automotive industry and i can tell you that there are some products coming from "Outside" the US that are very good quality, on par with some of the best here....but on the other hand there are a lot of products that don't have the quality due to profit potential of getting stuff out quick.... and some of it is related to materials, China for one, is busting a$$ to get all the steel they can and sacrifice some quality in materials to do it. That leads to some pretty crappy material being put on the market....or sent over here because they are using all the good stuff, which ever the case may be.

The big thing about manufacturing overseas is the communications between the engineers and the manufacturing floor. Also selecting a competent machine shop goes a long way. I don't advocate sending jobs overseas, but it's a new world with the "global" economy. Hopefully China eases up with the currency peg and then we'll starting seeing jobs come back due to the increase in value of the Chinese currency.

As for blocks...There are definite power goal differences with these two blocks that is for sure. The consumer needs to be educated on power levels that the products are being designed for... just like cranks and rods need this.... i know it's tough for some companies to do and many don't take the time to develop the parameters/parts list for each part they make. I use cranks as an example... they should be able to give you a piston weight and companion rod that is good to this RPM AND Hp level... and then NA or blower application….But good luck finding that info. Even if you call they are very conservative in application advice.

I applaud world for taking an active roll in educating the public in what their products are designed to handle and the correct applications it should be used.

MerlinPro
04-13-2007, 03:53 PM
Scotty,
Thanks for an accurate assement of current conditions. I want to stress again to those who are sensitive to mfg locations-we are not in Asia at all. That's all I can say.
Knowing at what level parts give up is a great idea, but you are right-"good luck".

gun5l1ng3r
04-13-2007, 04:48 PM
Richard and Chris,
I also found out it takes one full day to cut 1.1 off a block and sleeves on a Rottler. :eek2:
(

What is 1.1 and what is a Rottler?

71CamaroLS1
04-13-2007, 04:50 PM
What is 1.1 and what is a Rottler?

He milled off 1.1 inches from the top of the deck using a big Rottler deck-cutting mill.

dynamowhum
04-13-2007, 04:59 PM
I would definately have to be a lottery winner to afford a set up with one of these blocks. I love looking at this stuff and seeing the cutting edge. As a kid I used to read all the car mags just looking at the cool stuff. What I would like to see is one of these 481CI monsters built to the hilt in an Ultima GTR. Can you say come on powerball.

chuntington101
04-16-2007, 01:54 AM
I would definately have to be a lottery winner to afford a set up with one of these blocks. I love looking at this stuff and seeing the cutting edge. As a kid I used to read all the car mags just looking at the cool stuff. What I would like to see is one of these 481CI monsters built to the hilt in an Ultima GTR. Can you say come on powerball.

yeah that would be cool! but a little lame compeared to whats already about! ;)

http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?t=370856&f=20&h=0

this is jeff schwartz creation. LS7 with forged bottom end and turbo turbos.

and have a look at nelson racing for their twin turbo GTR. they made 1600bhp on race and over 1100bhp on pump (91)!

thanks Chris.

Mike454SS
04-16-2007, 08:29 AM
I think it looks like an incredibly well engineered product...and as a result, I have a question for all the people concerned with the quality of the part leaving the foundry...if you were a well known company with a well established name, and you were designing an aftermarket block intended to take a TON of power and abuse and just keep asking for more...wouldn't you be concerned about that so much that you'd feel insulted to find your customers don't think it's an issue for you?

Can the Warhawk be finished at 4.030 or are the sleeves already larger than that when you buy it? I'm building a relatively small displacement (370 cubic inch) high boost engine and I'm having a lot of trouble deciding which block to go with...LSx can (or at least the older ads for it said it can) finish at 4.030 but it's heavier (it's going in a relatively heavy car and I'd like to save weight anywhere I can)...I don't think it's a direct competitor for the Warhawk as they both seem to have their own list of advantages, but the Dart billet block and C5R blocks are a little expensive for me...and I'm nervous running a production LQ4 block.

MerlinPro
04-16-2007, 11:16 AM
Mike,
We offer prepped block # 086505-4030. at 4.030 or bare block 086505 at 3.990.

ThinkingGTM
05-12-2007, 12:22 PM
gun,
The pattern, tooling, casting, machining and marketing of this stuff is hugely complex and there are probably a ton of books on the subject. :judge:

If anyone has a list of related books/textbooks they don't mind posting, I'd appreciate it.

allthrotle
05-12-2007, 01:54 PM
MerlinPro,

If I wanted to buy one of your warhawk blocks today, about how long of a lead time or backorder would I be looking at.

racernj
05-12-2007, 05:07 PM
AlThrotle,

Lead time right now is about 4 weeks as we have many on back order but will begin shipping Tuesday , May 21st. It will be a few weeks to clear back orders which puts you, if you ordered one on Monday, about 4 weeks out.
PM me if you are interseted and I will get you on the list

Tom

PREDATOR-Z
05-16-2007, 03:52 AM
Regarding the "Niche Market" for LSX block and Warhawk, in our Super Street division, we are allowed unlimited cubes BUT only on GM factory blocks, so a Warhawk will not fit the bill and the LSX will.
I dunno if this fits any divisions in the US.

That Warhawk is a beauty.

cjmatt
05-16-2007, 07:06 AM
Where is your foundry located?
Is the Warhawk built here in the USA, with TIGHT quality control standards?
Is there a write-up somewhere showing how an Al block is made?

EDIT: I don't mean to sound like a jerk, I am just curious how products like this are made and brought to market...
I was always under the impression that linamar made the blocks

Sharpe
05-16-2007, 08:58 AM
Richard and Chris,I also found out it takes one full day to cut 1.1 off a block and sleeves on a Rottler. :eek2: I would have given my right OR left nut (my favorite one) for either of those blocks you destroyed! :cry: :(

MerlinPro
05-16-2007, 07:37 PM
cj,
Only World Products makes the Warhawk. Sorry to be ignorant-who is " linamar "?
Sharpe,
Thank you for your generous anatomical offer-we prefer that you remain intact however.
We have not "destroyed" a Warhawk-rather, converted it to the useful purpose of informing folks about the serious effort we made to provide a desirable improvement.

LILS
05-17-2007, 08:21 AM
Clearly milling 1.1" off the Warhawk's deck is only useful for educational comparisons, but here's a question for you Merlin: How much can you mill off the Warhawk's 0.6" deck thickness and still have a safe and structurally sound block? Of course, you'll give us the usual "World is leaving it up to customer experimentation to find the limits of the block," but is there some more modest amount that World is willing to stand behind as safe and acceptable?

MrDude_1
05-17-2007, 08:32 AM
i really want to see the pics, but i cant see photobucket here at work...

would somebody please attach them to this forum, so i can see??

Sharpe
05-17-2007, 10:49 AM
We have not "destroyed" a Warhawk-rather, converted it to the useful purpose of informing folks about the serious effort we made to provide a desirable improvement.You just try and justify it however you want in your own mind, you sadistic bastard. Maybe some day you'll be able to sleep at night that way...

...maybe. :nono:


Next time, just send me one and I'll inform folks about your "serious effort to provide a desirable improvement" with huge clouds of noxtious smoke from my rear fender wells. Of course, I'll also need a transmission and rear end that can support that public service activity.

Demon Of Dreams
05-17-2007, 11:43 AM
wow ... kind of surprised me reading over this thread .... are people in the LSx world really not too familiar with World? I mean good lord they've been a sponsor for who knows how long, and have been making aluminum big blocks for at least 10 years (I say 10 years because it was about that long ago when I first started reading about their products)

Once the block hits a marketable range as far as units, I'm sure they'll sell fairly well... not being made of money myself, they are, unfortunately, something only attainable when saved for quite some time... but I've wanted an aluminum block from these guys since I started out in 3rd gen camaro's, then pick up trucks... all I can say is, they've taken a huge risk in developing a high cubic inch aluminum LSx style block, and I really do hope it pays off for them.

my dream engine from them in lsx form would be the warhawk in 427ci ... not too much to get me in too much trouble but just enough to at least try.

MerlinPro
05-17-2007, 12:43 PM
MrDude,
You can see them here: from our BMP site:
http://www.theengineshop.com/prods_pages/add_info/086210_002_keyfetrs.htm
Sharpe,
:jest: :jest: :jest: Yer killing me.
Ok-you get a free engine!
errr, "-What Bill?? Waddya mean Fired???" :cry:
LILS, (Long Island LS perhaps?)
You as an engine builder will draw preferences from your experience. You as the customer of an engine builder should rely on his advice for deck cuts.
We have only cut the deck once on this design-it's for display. The block came with a very true 9.24 deck.
Not sure why you might ask this other than "clean-up" or to get out of the hole numbers. Surely there are ways to raise compression by parts selection rather than machining.
And to be real square about it-we can't encourage guys to whack decks to a number or limit from the liability standpoint. If the block dies or parts won't fit-it's perceived as our fault. Period. Some folks are not above using forums to then kill us. We built the block-we'll put it out there for folks to build as they see fit.
Our custom options program will alter a deck height only to a customer's spec and he is then responsible for that choice.
"Safe and acceptable" for what?

LILS
05-17-2007, 01:49 PM
Ok, Merlin, you're correct that what I threw out was a bit odd, but the thinking (or lack thereof) behind the weird idea was that 0.6" seems quite thick, so if for some reason you wanted to use a piston with a bit too little compression height, or a crank with a slightly smaller stroke, or con rods that were slightly too short (e.g., using the LS7 titanium rods where 6.1" or 6.125" rods are really the right fit), then maybe that generous Warhawk deck thickness might offer an option to make the parts all work together by milling the block. It may not make any sense for other reasons (e.g., the cost of milling), but I was just curious whether it even made sense from a strictly dimensional perspective.

vtanju
05-17-2007, 02:06 PM
maybe i am missing a point! how does milling the deck of the block effect its durability or soundness? :eyes:

MerlinPro
05-17-2007, 02:24 PM
LILS,
Thanks for shedding a little more light on your thoughts. If those are the parts you have on hand to use for a build I can see where you're going.
However, dimensions aside for a minute, from a financial standpoint, you may disadvantage yourself.
The niche that Warhawk was built for demands that thick deck and stout cylinder case-design features for big power apps. There are surely less-costly blocks suitable for your purpose-why pay for strength which you might mill away to make a particular combination fit? Of course you may be building big power into this combo-but then you give-up the strength you paid for.
We'd love to sell you one but prefer that you get full value for your money.

Sharpe
05-17-2007, 02:32 PM
Sharpe,
:jest: :jest: :jest: Yer killing me.
Ok-you get a free engine!EVERYONE HEARD HIM SAY THAT!!! I'M HOLDING HIM TO IT!!!

You're really lucky I'm willing to accept this engine and take the time to drop it in my Camaro just for PR for Merlin. I'm such a pushover!

MerlinPro
05-17-2007, 03:08 PM
My next post will be titled "Postcards from the unemployment line."