dotstereo

I made a thread in the external engine but I didn't get any responses; a mod suggested trying the conversion section. I may PM a sponsor for their insight.

I'm researching a project and I may need an oil pan made.

I'm looking for a mid-sump pan. Reason being, I also don't have enough room for the sump lengthwise, but I have plenty of width. There will be a crossmember where the sump would typically be on an fbody pan, so I'm looking to move the sump forward, as well as outward (to make up for the capacity I will lose elsewhere). Imagine a typical ls1 pan with the sump turned sideways, and more towards the center of the pan. I'm looking for something similar to this (click picture for larger size):


The real question I have is how a new pan would affect oil consumption. I've read about how road racers in lateral-G situations, may starve their motors for oil, so they run an extra quart with the fbody pan. I've also heard that people are switching to ls2 pans becuase it handles oiling better. This is not an option however due to sump location.

I guess I'm also asking, how does sump location/shape affect oiling issues? Is an oil-pan-is-an-oil-pan-is-an-oil-pan? Will there be issues as long as the pickup and everything work together? And what qualifies a decent pan/pickup etc?

The swap car has a two-piece oil pan, so if worse comes to worse, I may be able to have a custom upper pan made, and use the stock lower pan (sump, etc). Would this be a reasonable option?

Thanks a lot for your help.

'JustDreamin'

Hey there....

Well, as far as I'm aware, there is no mid-sump design available for the LSx platform.

You might check to make sure the GTO front sump pan won't work for you (just checking).


Oil consumption isn't the term you're really after. Oil consumption refers to the engine actually consuming (ie burning, leaking, or otherwise misplacing) oil. I'm not exactly sure what the term is for what you're concerned about.


Modifying a stock pan is possible, but its an adventure. It's an aluminum pan, so you've got to have the appropriate skills and equipment. Its cast alum, so a used pan will soak up some oil and give your welder fits (inclusions, weld porosity, etc). And, it'll try hard to warp, so you've got to shoot it down to something (like an engine block).

Building a custom pan is not really that big an affair. The flange where it mounts the block is dead flat (as opposed to the SBC with its the cutouts for the mains front and rear).

One of the things you'll need to work through is the oil filter provision is right at the rear of the motor. If you've got room (no crossmember in the way) then you can run a remote filter or something like that. If not, then you'll need to figure that out.

I'm not sure if that answered any of your questions, but....

Also, some more info on what this is going into would be useful. Vehicle, useage (autocross / drag / airplane / submarine / etc), etc.

'JustDreamin'

dotstereo

Thanks a million for your help.

You're right about my terminology, I didn't exactly mean oil consumption. I just wanted to prevent oil starvation; I guess I'm just looking for a good pickup and baffling?

I have heard about the difficulty of modifying the stock pan, so I was looking to have a new one made. There are two routes I was thinking of taking; the first route would be to completely have a new pan made, with a custom sump in the location I need.

The second route would be to have a new 'adapter' pan made. Perhaps this will clarify: the swap car stock oil pan has two parts: an upper pan that mates to the block, and a lower pan that is the actual sump. In the pictures in my first post, the black sump is the lower pan and you can see where it meets the upper pan. I could have a new upper pan made for the ls1 to mate to the stock lower pan (and maybe use that sump/ oil system?)

I hesitated to say in the first post (due to the other threads arguing about this) but the car will be a MKIV Toyota Supra. Here are some pictures of the engine, to give you a frame of reference for the pan:




Here is what the stock subframe looks like (note how it has an engine AND suspension crossmember, the latter being the one that interferes with the oil pan.):

Close-up (don't mind the damage):


Here is an overlay I made with an ls1/t56 and 2jz/v160. The ls1 also has an ls2 oil pan on it:


The GTO pan won't work becuase the engine would have to sit too far back. I would run into firewall issues, as well as transmission tunnel issues for the T56 (it's bellhousing is already bigger than the stock Supra tranny).

The car is meant to be an all around car that can be daily driven with ease. I just don't want to take away any of the functions the car would have with its former motor. Thus, I want to make sure it can still corner/ handle, and even road race as well as the car pre-swap.

Once again, thanks a ton for the help.

'JustDreamin'

No worries about what you're putting it into. We're all pretty open about swapping motors here. There's lots of guys swapping them into RX-7's / 240Z's / BWM's / Ultima kit cars, etc, so you won't get any slack from us about what you put it into (unless its a dumptruck, at which point you might need 2!).

I'd say of your 2 choices the first would be the cheapest. Making up a custom pan with a 2nd mounting surface to mount the stock lower pan is likely to cost more than just building the pan complete to begin with (because of the extra fabrication for flanges / mounting surfaces / etc, and possibly having to surface (mill or grind) that extra flange).

There are a couple of aftermarket pans available. I think most are in the $500 range, and none of them are mid-sump. You could buy one of those and modify it (or have it modified)

Or, depending upon your fabrication skills and tools available to you, you might just build it yourself. That's the path I followed for my Bravada (see my CarDomain site for pics). I think I've got $60 in materials in the pan (3/8" cold rolled steel barstock, 16ga steel sheet, and some AN / JIC fittings to remote the oil filter). It certainly took some time to put it all together, but I ended up with a pan that fits my application well (oilpan fits around the front differential, when its installed). Just a thought.

'JustDreamin'

dotstereo

You're right about how making a complete pan from the start will be easier, and potentially more cost effective. I don't have any skills, so I would have this pan made by a local shop (I was originally going to have a custom subframe made, similar to the way the RX7 guys, but decided a custom pan would be a lot less involved).

Your pan looks great! The concern I have with a custom pan is how the windage tray, baffling, and pickup work. Do you have these made to fit the custom application? Or do you use these parts from other pans?

I guess I'm picturing the pan as the 'shell' and that seems easy enough to fabricate; what I don't know about is all the internal parts to the pan- the real 'guts' of the oiling system.

'JustDreamin'

Well, for mine, I used the stock truck windage tray, which is full length, like the vette tray. The F-body windage tray is shorter.

For the pickup, I originally used the stock truck pickup tube. Then, I decided to hack about 1.5" off the bottom of the pan (after I had put the pan together) so I modified the stock truck pickup to do what I wanted (basically hacked some out of the tube).

I'm not really running a baffle in the pan, mostly because the pan has such steep tall sides (because of the height of the pan where the diff is) I didn't think it would be of any benefit (and my pickup sits right at the forward portion of that deep sump).

For the pan gasket and oil pump pickup, I'd recommend buying new ones from GM, they're cheap insurance against leaks. Any GM dealer should be able to look them up for you.


I expect that you don't have nearly the height to work with (I had to put the engine up high enough to clear the front pumpkin, so I've got an almost 8" tall pan that still tucks in behind the front crossmember) so you may have to work on oil control. I might suggest you look at some of the oilpan kits from folks like Speedway Motors. They've got parts like trap-doors and baffles. That stuff is going to be SBC / racing oriented, but that's where you'll find folks who are concerned about oil control (they're out Racing).

'JustDreamin'

FastKat

iTrader: (10)

If you do modify your cast aluminum oil pan, stick it in the dishwasher (alone, not with your dishes) and run it through a normal cycle with regular dishwasher detergent. This will get all of the crap out of the pores that will cause you problems while welding. I would suggest gunking it with engine degreaser and hitting it with a pressure washer or a steam cleaner before putting it in your dishwasher, or your girlfriend / wife/ ex-girlfriend / mother might get pissed.

Another thing I found that helps when welding aluminum is welding fresh cut edges. It seems like cuts left to sit a while (a week) oxidized and were harder to weld. I would try to weld everything the same day you do the cutting.

'JustDreamin'

That's a good reminder. Alum oxidizes very quickly (like hours) and the oxide layer makes welding harder. Freshly sanded edges definitely weld easier.

Steel is more forgiving because the oxides float to the surface of the weld puddle. Alum oxides are actually dense enough that they can sink into the weld puddle, causing trouble.

'JustDreamin'

Thaniel

iTrader: (2)

Help me out. I've been looking at the diagram and the pics and why is it you need to modify the pan? I mean what exactly on the car are you hitting? Only thing I can see is just a stiffener. Steering rack is way forward so it can't be that. Am I wrong? I'd rather make a custom one of those. It looks like steel and easy to modify. maybe I am not seeing things clearly.

GIGAPUNK

iTrader: (2)

Does any body know what welding rod to use?

TT402LS1

iTrader: (5)

You can send the dimentions to Canton in CT, and they will build it. It cost about $700.00. If you need and extra pan for modding, I have a truck pan off a 02 6.0L.

Ron

dotstereo

Well, the rear subframe (suspension subframe) is steel and in the way of a typical fbody pan sump. The stock Supra pan sits in between the two subframes (and thus the sump sits further forward than an fbody pan).
The area in blue is where I would have pan/crossmember interference:


I initially planned to make a tubular subframe similar to the way RX7 guys do (their stock subframe looks similar).
Here is the stock Supra crossmember:



Here is a pic of a custom RX7 subframe I would emulate- notice how the rear crossmember has been removed:



Some Supra guys mentioned just having a new pan made, instead of a new subframe, so I thought I would look into it. Are you suggesting I just have a new crossmember made (to replace the steel piece) and it could just sit lower? I had not really thought of that, though it may be a very viable option.

Thanks a million for your help.
That's also really helpful, thanks.