Advanced Engineering Tech - Still pushing water.

Well after steping a little on the tuneup im staring to push water again.As some know im on a copper o ring reciver groove setup.I would like to know how much power can you make before i shoud be pushing water?Seems like my power level is no were close enough to were im pushing water.Right now i push about a quart per pass and i get a little messy under the hood because it fills my reserve all the way up.My heads are torque to 100ft pounds but i belive i may have hurt a gasket due to not torquing them down tight enough on the fresh gaskets (85ft pounds) thinking about putting new gaskets in and trying it again.What do you guys think. BTW i did do the heat cycle and retorque after full cool down but were only torque at 85ft pounds.At that point we were leaking water pretty bad in the cylinders and we pulled the haeds cleaned it all up and did the 100ft pound torque.Can copper gaskets just get messed up on a inproper torque install.

What kind of HP is it now???

I was pushing the same as you right around 890rwhp... but im a Boosted car.....
The last time out i did lift both head gaskets and popped the drivers side gasket and am currently going to the same head gasket set-up[ you have now........
When i lifted both gaskets last time out i was a lil over 1Krwhp on GM MLS gaskets.......

Kyle

"Can copper gaskets just get messed up on a inproper torque install."

This is not likely.

Check you spark plugs for detonation. It will look like tiny black specks with a magnifying glass. You may want to cut off the threads to expose the bottom of the porcelain. If you are relying on your ears or a knock sensor you are fooling yourself.

If you had it on a dyno it would show up by sending your blow by meter wild.

I would have to check back but I remember some guys pumping the cylinders with high pressure nitrogen to see where it will leak first.

Are you on L19 head studs? Whats the timing? I relocated the overflow to a catch can style. Water under the hood and slicks is not a good combo :(

Are you on L19 head studs? Whats the timing? I relocated the overflow to a catch can style. Water under the hood and slicks is not a good combo :(
Yes L19 studs timing is at 17 degrees.

Might be a little to much timing.

My ET heads dont like timing or hot plugs AT ALL.
What plugs are you using?


Shiz's car dint have any head lifting issues, we use cometic MLS, he has std. size L19's.

What gas are you using? C16?

Yes L19 studs timing is at 17 degrees.


Sounds like to much timming. like ATV said. Im not real sure on the original question of how much power. but mine has made 900 to the wheels with no lifting.

Are you sure its head lifting?
did you check the coolant?
do you have a stock water pump or electric?

Also I had a stock coolant cap go weak on me once. have you tried replacing it?

Tear it down. Copper Gaskets can and will push out if they are let loose from insufficient TQ.

Well after steping a little on the tuneup im staring to push water again.As some know im on a copper o ring reciver groove setup.I would like to know how much power can you make before i shoud be pushing water?Seems like my power level is no were close enough to were im pushing water.Right now i push about a quart per pass and i get a little messy under the hood because it fills my reserve all the way up.My heads are torque to 100ft pounds but i belive i may have hurt a gasket due to not torquing them down tight enough on the fresh gaskets (85ft pounds) thinking about putting new gaskets in and trying it again.What do you guys think. BTW i did do the heat cycle and retorque after full cool down but were only torque at 85ft pounds.At that point we were leaking water pretty bad in the cylinders and we pulled the haeds cleaned it all up and did the 100ft pound torque.Can copper gaskets just get messed up on a inproper torque install.

Sounds like to much timming. like ATV said. Im not real sure on the original question of how much power. but mine has made 900 to the wheels with no lifting.

Are you sure its head lifting?
did you check the coolant?
do you have a stock water pump or electric?

Also I had a stock coolant cap go weak on me once. have you tried replacing it?

I have the race electric pump and i have a 20psi radiator cap on it that was changed out.

Might be a little to much timing.

My ET heads dont like timing or hot plugs AT ALL.
What plugs are you using?


Shiz's car dint have any head lifting issues, we use cometic MLS, he has std. size L19's.

What gas are you using? C16?

NGK 9 is what im using for plugs and i only run C16 fuel.I have also heard that take timing out because it is not nessary with the et heads.How much timing have you taking out?Ive heard people go as low as 12 degrees but im thinking setting it at 15 degrees and sees what happens.

Tear it down. Copper Gaskets can and will push out if they are let loose from insufficient TQ.

Tearing it down as i post this we don't wanna take any chances and its really not a big deal.Fresh gaskets will be here tomorrow.

NGK 9 is what im using for plugs and i only run C16 fuel.I have also heard that take timing out because it is not nessary with the et heads.How much timing have you taking out?Ive heard people go as low as 12 degrees but im thinking setting it at 15 degrees and sees what happens.

what did the n20 make to the wheels and what jets?

also are the L19's 1/2"

Tearing it down as i post this we don't wanna take any chances and its really not a big deal.Fresh gaskets will be here tomorrow.



How did the gaskets look????

How did the gaskets look????

Gaskets were burn't between cylinders.Also the gaskets i feel are a tad on the big side and hang into the chamber a bit.Might be causing a hot spot on the gasket.I ordered gaskets a little bigger so it won't hanging in the chamber.

also are the L19's 1/2"

No. They are direct replacements. Just have the clamping force of a 1/2 stud. Timing wise for that big of a shot is a bit. But I would think with the 16 it would hold.

also are the L19's 1/2"

No there standard size.I was told that there strengh was equal to a regular 1/2 stud.I am on a iron block if was aluminum i think the 1/2 would be the only way to go.

No there standard size.I was told that there strengh was equal to a regular 1/2 stud.I am on a iron block if was aluminum i think the 1/2 would be the only way to go.


Hmmm ya got me wondering now......... they they make an L19 in a 1/2" stud???
If so it wouldnt be that hard to machine everything for it since my motor is out now.....

No there standard size.I was told that there strengh was equal to a regular 1/2 stud.I am on a iron block if was aluminum i think the 1/2 would be the only way to go.


I run the same L19's I'm not saying you need 1/2" but by the 100ft/lbs i thought you had 1/2" Was your block done with the tq plate at 100 ft/lbs?

Eric told me to tq mine to 75 no more and there holding great. i would think if you over tq them you will get the boltpart of the head bowing in and the middle of the cylander on the head higher. but im no expert.

I run the same L19's I'm not saying you need 1/2" but by the 100ft/lbs i thought you had 1/2" Was your block done with the tq plate at 100 ft/lbs?

Eric told me to tq mine to 75 no more and there holding great. i would think if you over tq them you will get the boltpart of the head bowing in and the middle of the cylander on the head higher. but im no expert.

When we torqued to 85ft the copper never seated into the o ring reciver groove after it was ran like that at the track we pushed water like crazy with very little nos.We took the heads off at that point and noticed they were loose like they were trying to still seat.and we did do the retorque at 85ft.I think the gasket were hurt at that point.When we took took the gaskets to 100ft we noticed how much better the copper seated you could feel just by torquing down that is what the cooper needed.We will see on the new set going in tonight and hit the track this weekend if that was a problem.I just think you need high torque just for copper o ring reciver groove setups because your trying to crush the the copper into the groove.

NGK 9 is what im using for plugs and i only run C16 fuel.I have also heard that take timing out because it is not nessary with the et heads.How much timing have you taking out?Ive heard people go as low as 12 degrees but im thinking setting it at 15 degrees and sees what happens.


I would start at 12* and work your way up.

Are you using a progressor? or spraying it all right out of the hole?

I would start at 12* and work your way up.

Are you using a progressor? or spraying it all right out of the hole?

Thats what i was thinking.

What shot is it and how much hp to the wheels? i thought i red somware 250 to the wheels but i couldn't find it.

Heavily coat the gaskets in hylomar. Then procede to Tq and Loosen those gaskets 4-5 times. Yes Copper gaskets need alot more TQ to deform around the wire lock. At least 85-90 lb ft. I would suggest the Loosen and Re TQ scheme 4-5 times and make sevral final TQ checking passes. Mind you use lots of Moly lube on the headstud threads.


When we torqued to 85ft the copper never seated into the o ring reciver groove after it was ran like that at the track we pushed water like crazy with very little nos.We took the heads off at that point and noticed they were loose like they were trying to still seat.and we did do the retorque at 85ft.I think the gasket were hurt at that point.When we took took the gaskets to 100ft we noticed how much better the copper seated you could feel just by torquing down that is what the cooper needed.We will see on the new set going in tonight and hit the track this weekend if that was a problem.I just think you need high torque just for copper o ring reciver groove setups because your trying to crush the the copper into the groove.

We just got back from the track and we set timing at 14 degrees all was going good mine you the car was more lazy with the timing out.We then started to pill it up thinking leave timing out and creep up with the tuneup.As soon as we pilled up to a 33 we then pushed water about half gallon.I know this is not right and maybe the gaskets are to thin (40 tho) heads went through the normal heat cycle and were retorqued.This pushing water is getting old and we are not going to make any more power if we can't keep the heads on the motor.

Is it time for a bigblock yeat!!!I know if we can keep the heads down we wil be able to run with some of the 500+ cube guys without a problem.If i bulid a new motor i will be going through W2W and it will be a world block but before i bulid that i want to know if im going to limit myself again to a motor that will have the same problem.I love the LSX motors but if i can't make power due to pushing water then this setup is pretty useless.

Wish I could help but I dont have any experience with copper gaskets.

Did you try the hylomar like LS1curious said? I've heard good stuff about it.

what heads are you using ?







Is it time for a bigblock yeat!!!I know if we can keep the heads down we wil be able to run with some of the 500+ cube guys without a problem.If i bulid a new motor i will be going through W2W and it will be a world block but before i bulid that i want to know if im going to limit myself again to a motor that will have the same problem.I love the LSX motors but if i can't make power due to pushing water then this setup is pretty useless.

what heads are you using ?

Pretty sure he has ETP's

Pretty sure he has ETP's
Your correct.BTW i talked to kurt from W2W and he said there is not much i can do.Nitrous cars are just so violent that it's really hard to keed the heads down plus my motor is 13.5.1 compression so cylinder pressure is very high on the bottle.I was thinking of buliding a custom Reservoir like the new cars have so that when you bulid coolent pressure it would have room to expaned vs right now it just pushed water out because ther is no room.I think what we want to bulid will work and it will keep the water in the motor.The only thing we don't know is how many times can a head be lifted before you have a gasket failure.

Tq the sutds up to like 105 lb ft.

Those heads can take it and as long as the block is Iron it'll take it.


Your correct.BTW i talked to kurt from W2W and he said there is not much i can do.Nitrous cars are just so violent that it's really hard to keed the heads down plus my motor is 13.5.1 compression so cylinder pressure is very high on the bottle.I was thinking of buliding a custom Reservoir like the new cars have so that when you bulid coolent pressure it would have room to expaned vs right now it just pushed water out because ther is no room.I think what we want to bulid will work and it will keep the water in the motor.The only thing we don't know is how many times can a head be lifted before you have a gasket failure.

Tq the sutds up to like 105 lb ft.

Those heads can take it and as long as the block is Iron it'll take it.

Thats were there at and still no luck.

I think you hit the nail on the head if the gaskets are protruding into the chamber. That would almost certainly cause a hot spot at the gasket edge which would cause detonation.

I think you hit the nail on the head if the gaskets are protruding into the chamber. That would almost certainly cause a hot spot at the gasket edge which would cause detonation.

I thought so to so we went to a 4.100 gasket and it fit very nice.We thought we had the problem solved till we put a bigger tune in 33 jet on D/P and then we started to push water again.I figure are tune would be able to go to about a 40 jet before i would draw the line but were so far off from that and i know a 33 is not huge for a 408 cube motor.BTW i ran a 36 jet in my D/P in my little 346 but i did not have the compression that i have now also.I think im going just to go to a huge catch can and pill it till the heads pop off!!!

Are you running 11mm or 1/2 studs ? The other thing you may want to do is grab some pictures of the plugs and the old gaskets and post them up here. I would love to have a look see.

Also did you Tq and loosen the heads sevral times before final TQ ?



Thats were there at and still no luck.

Your correct.BTW i talked to kurt from W2W and he said there is not much i can do.Nitrous cars are just so violent that it's really hard to keed the heads down plus my motor is 13.5.1 compression so cylinder pressure is very high on the bottle.I was thinking of buliding a custom Reservoir like the new cars have so that when you bulid coolent pressure it would have room to expaned


Thats what i was told also..... N2O is violent.....
I know im a boosted car.... but i would lift the heads and push that much also....... heads would lift 6-7 times and finally blow the gasket.... not o-ringed though....
Like i said above im in the process of doing it now.... looks like you talked me into 1/2" studs....

Kyle

Thats what i was told also..... N2O is violent.....
I know im a boosted car.... but i would lift the heads and push that much also....... heads would lift 6-7 times and finally blow the gasket.... not o-ringed though....
Like i said above im in the process of doing it now.... looks like you talked me into 1/2" studs....

Kyle

I talked to kurt at W2W and he thought the clamping force would have been good with the l19.I don't think going with a 1/2 stud would be the answer.He feels that nos are just that mush more harder on things and there is not much i can really do.

Are you running 11mm or 1/2 studs ? The other thing you may want to do is grab some pictures of the plugs and the old gaskets and post them up here. I would love to have a look see.

Also did you Tq and loosen the heads sevral times before final TQ ?
Ill see what i can do.

I talked to kurt at W2W and he thought the clamping force would have been good with the l19.I don't think going with a 1/2 stud would be the answer.He feels that nos are just that mush more harder on things and there is not much i can really do.


That sucks man....... :(

Well either BBC time or LSX... id say wait and see what some do with the LSX stuff with the 6 bolt heads and you have almost all the parts except the heads and some bolts.........

Kyle

That sucks man....... :(

Well either BBC time or LSX... id say wait and see what some do with the LSX stuff with the 6 bolt heads and you have almost all the parts except the heads and some bolts.........

Kyle
Yea that is what ive been thinking.If not im going to lean towards a SBC im thinking like a SP2 setup with efi on the gun!!! :judge:

Yeah SBC stuff can take the power.... Local buddy made 2430hp with a 430ci SBC with Twin GT-47-88 turbo's.... should be a blast...

Well after steping a little on the tuneup im staring to push water again.As some know im on a copper o ring reciver groove setup.I would like to know how much power can you make before i shoud be pushing water?Seems like my power level is no were close enough to were im pushing water.Right now i push about a quart per pass and i get a little messy under the hood because it fills my reserve all the way up.My heads are torque to 100ft pounds but i belive i may have hurt a gasket due to not torquing them down tight enough on the fresh gaskets (85ft pounds) thinking about putting new gaskets in and trying it again.What do you guys think. BTW i did do the heat cycle and retorque after full cool down but were only torque at 85ft pounds.At that point we were leaking water pretty bad in the cylinders and we pulled the haeds cleaned it all up and did the 100ft pound torque.Can copper gaskets just get messed up on a inproper torque install.
on all our cars we pushed about a quart a pass once we ran 8.90 power

Yea that is what ive been thinking.If not im going to lean towards a SBC im thinking like a SP2 setup with efi on the gun!!! :judge:


I would disagree with the ls not being able to hold it. I just think your head gasket type is no good with what your doing. I have hit mine pretty hard and the most water we saw was less than 1/2 a quart on the over flow. a little water is going to happen. My compression is less than yours though. I guess your heads are machines for those gaskets and you can't use a regular cometic any more right?

Also It would help to not fill the coolant all the way up leave it 1/2 qt low that way theres some room in the system and when it pushes its just steam at first.

I would disagree with the ls not being able to hold it. I just think your head gasket type is no good with what your doing. I have hit mine pretty hard and the most water we saw was less than 1/2 a quart on the over flow. a little water is going to happen. My compression is less than yours though. I guess your heads are machines for those gaskets and you can't use a regular cometic any more right?

Also It would help to not fill the coolant all the way up leave it 1/2 qt low that way theres some room in the system and when it pushes its just steam at first.
Yea i leave the coolant a little low for expanion.What shot are you hitting it with and what compression.

Yea i leave the coolant a little low for expanion.What shot are you hitting it with and what compression.

It has seen the 400 shot on the mustang dyno quite a few times .We are around 11.5 or so. We just didn't believe the big N20 shot needed all that compression to do what we wanted. we also have taken good care in tqing the heads where eric@HK wanted us to and the recomendations from arp on the L19 head studs. We also used a thin gasket to help reduce the area where it could push out. I read about some cool new copper gaskets with orings around the coolant holes and gas filled rings to help seal compression. Might want to look into something like that.

good luck man. I hope your heads or block are not stuck with the setup you have now. it does not seem to be right.

Yea i leave the coolant a little low for expanion.What shot are you hitting it with and what compression.


Think it was 350 shot at the PGD's and 375 shot when it went 8.9

Its broken up in 2 stages.

are you using a progressor?

Think it was 350 shot at the PGD's and 375 shot when it went 8.9

Its broken up in 2 stages.

are you using a progressor?


Bingo. but we did hit it with the 400 on the dyno at jeffs. we just backed it down some for the friday night runs. as soon as my stuffs back were gona hit it with the 450 and see what she's got. I had eric send 4 extra pistons incase :)

Bingo. but we did hit it with the 400 on the dyno at jeffs. we just backed it down some for the friday night runs. as soon as my stuffs back were gona hit it with the 450 and see what she's got. I had eric send 4 extra pistons incase :)


You have a very efficent N20 kit too.

225 shot makes 230 or so to the wheels :eek2:

450 DAMN ! Maybe it will bump the front wheels :judge: :jest:

450 DAMN ! Maybe it will bump the front wheels :judge: :jest:

:( :bang: :)

I read about some cool new copper gaskets with orings around the coolant holes and gas filled rings to help seal compression. Might want to look into something like that.

I think kurt tried those gaskets on a turbo setup with no success...not sure if its the same ones...but he did mention they had gas-filled rings...

We have some trick shit in the works ill keep you guys posted.

We have some trick shit in the works ill keep you guys posted.


please do

I read about some cool new copper gaskets with orings around the coolant holes and gas filled rings to help seal compression. Might want to look into something like that.




SCE Titans? I ran them on my 347 after popping the cometics at E-town....... The next time I lifted a head, the gaskets held, but the piston/head did not. VERY strong gaskets....... but if you have issues, you will have damage...LOL

I went back to cometics for my new motor, as I would rather lose a gasket, than damage the motor

You guys are chasing the wrong gremlin... I assume that you think the heads are lifting, pressurizing the cooling system with combustion gasses, causing a coolant dump, is that correct? I seriously doubt this is happening with the gaskets and torque you are using. The head gaskets are not leaking.

The problem is an extreme and rapid transfer of heat to the cooling system causing a rapid expansion of the coolant and a pressure spike... This, coupled with a high pressure cap means that when the cap does release, it does so with an explosive eruption (liquid to steam) of coolant.

Try improving your cooling system using a lower pressure cap (12 psi) and a large diameter (1 inch) overflow line to a large catch can. Also make sure there is no flow restriction through the thermostat or other components. Verify that your coolant bleeds at the front and rear of the heads are clear and large to eliminate any posibility of trapped air in the heads. Verify that your radiator is large and well cooled with electric fans... Also, install a coolant system pressure guage and log the data for analysis.
Do this and your problem will be solved...
Shirl Dickey
SDRE

I have had similar problems on buicks and SBF with copper gasket. 1/2 head studs and lifting at this power level. Its not rapid heating from his description. We need pictures of the gaskets and plugs to go further with this.

You guys are chasing the wrong gremlin... I assume that you think the heads are lifting, pressurizing the cooling system with combustion gasses, causing a coolant dump, is that correct? I seriously doubt this is happening with the gaskets and torque you are using. The head gaskets are not leaking.

The problem is an extreme and rapid transfer of heat to the cooling system causing a rapid expansion of the coolant and a pressure spike... This, coupled with a high pressure cap means that when the cap does release, it does so with an explosive eruption (liquid to steam) of coolant.

Try improving your cooling system using a lower pressure cap (12 psi) and a large diameter (1 inch) overflow line to a large catch can. Also make sure there is no flow restriction through the thermostat or other components. Verify that your coolant bleeds at the front and rear of the heads are clear and large to eliminate any posibility of trapped air in the heads. Verify that your radiator is large and well cooled with electric fans... Also, install a coolant system pressure guage and log the data for analysis.
Do this and your problem will be solved...
Shirl Dickey
SDRE

So based on what Shirl is saying, then race SBC and BBC's would do the same thing once you hit them with a 300 shot too?

I'm just a newb at this ultra high HP stuff, but if the heads were lifting, wouldn't there be some kind of fuel residue in the coolant? Of course not enough to see or smell, but its not something a lab couldnt detect.

I'm just a newb at this ultra high HP stuff, but if the heads were lifting, wouldn't there be some kind of fuel residue in the coolant? Of course not enough to see or smell, but its not something a lab couldnt detect.

You can smell exhaust in the radiator.

You can smell exhaust in the radiator.

thats enough proof for me :eek2:

You have a very efficent N20 kit too.

225 shot makes 230 or so to the wheels :eek2:

450 DAMN ! Maybe it will bump the front wheels :judge: :jest:

Id like to think he has a very efficient N20 cam instead :)

The exhaust smell in the radiator is pretty obvious, along with the bits of the coating from the MLS gaskets in the water, and the bits of the coating hanging out from between the block and head. Yes thats good old exhaust on the head deck in that pic, thats when I knew when to change the gaskets - when I could see the black carbon on the outside of the block :)

I changed a cam, different heads (darts to AFRs) and a bunch of other stuff and finally calmed it down but I know if I add any more then 18psi its going to do it. I found just backing off the timing 7-8 seconds into a run helps a whole bunch and doesnt reallly hurt anything ET-wise, I never used to push a drop 1/8 mile but 1/4 mile would do a quart a pass. Taking 2 dgrees out with a timer definately helped.

I'm just sitting back waiting for the baller's to try the LSx 6 bolt and see how it holds up.

Id like to think he has a very efficient N20 cam instead :)

It all comes down to cylinder pressure.I have a high compression motor close to 14.1 And it just comes down to less compression and more nitrous or more compression and less nitrous ether way once we hit the big and explosive effect of nitrous somthing has got to give.

The exhaust smell in the radiator is pretty obvious, along with the bits of the coating from the MLS gaskets in the water, and the bits of the coating hanging out from between the block and head. Yes thats good old exhaust on the head deck in that pic, thats when I knew when to change the gaskets - when I could see the black carbon on the outside of the block :)

I changed a cam, different heads (darts to AFRs) and a bunch of other stuff and finally calmed it down but I know if I add any more then 18psi its going to do it. I found just backing off the timing 7-8 seconds into a run helps a whole bunch and doesnt reallly hurt anything ET-wise, I never used to push a drop 1/8 mile but 1/4 mile would do a quart a pass. Taking 2 dgrees out with a timer definately helped.

I'm just sitting back waiting for the baller's to try the LSx 6 bolt and see how it holds up.


What do you think a LSX block 454 with an F1R could run in a 3300lb racecar?
5.00:1; 5:40:1 are the permited gear ratio's

What do you think a LSX block 454 with an F1R could run in a 3300lb racecar?
5.00:1; 5:40:1 are the permited gear ratio's

by looking at the procharger specs for the F1R with a 5.40:1 internal stepup, its rated for a 375-550 n/A horsepower setup, I think the compressor might run out of steam for a raceprepped 454.

Either way, its rated for up to 1300 hp, so I'd guess mid 8s would be a realistic possibility if the combo was properly matched

by looking at the procharger specs for the F1R with a 5.40:1 internal stepup, its rated for a 375-550 n/A horsepower setup, I think the compressor might run out of steam for a raceprepped 454.

Either way, its rated for up to 1300 hp, so I'd guess mid 8s would be a realistic possibility if the combo was properly matched


Thats not fast enough.

We can do that or better with N20 :( :judge:

Thats not fast enough.

We can do that or better with N20 :( :judge:

THe name of the game is class parity. There is a reason they only allow a F1R...trying to keep the combos competitive

The "same" class thats in the NSCA allows the F2/F2R SC. Take a look at limited street on www.nsca-racing.net. That class runs slightly faster ETs overall (bottom 8s maybe a high 7 on a very very good day). The #1 car went 8.0 in qualifying at cecil 2 weeks ago. I think the car that went 7.9x earlier this year was a F2(R?) Procharged mustang...

Been awhile since we worked with blown race cars, but we went 8.60 at 3692# with a F1R and a 387ci LS engine at Thunder race in 03 or 04. One tenth per hundred pounds should be reasonable gain, so 8.20 should happen.

Kurt

The guys in Extreme street (NMCA) have gone 7.9 with a F1R.


DRIVER NAME RECORD DATE SET
Elapsed Time Record Chuck Bartholme 7.981 April 15, 2007
Bradenton, FL
Top Speed Record Chuck Bartholme 174.31

I think we may be able to go low 8's with one set for maw effort.

Looks like its time to replace the head studs. Also looks like the outer studs are giving up. I would run a few more lb ft of tq on the outer studs and replace them all.

The guys in Extreme street (NMCA) have gone 7.9 with a F1R.


DRIVER NAME RECORD DATE SET
Elapsed Time Record Chuck Bartholme 7.981 April 15, 2007
Bradenton, FL
Top Speed Record Chuck Bartholme 174.31

I think we may be able to go low 8's with one set for maw effort.

XTREME Street Weights:

Small Block Supercharged 400cid 3400lbs

If actual cubic inch is more than base cubic inch listing in section 13, there will be a weight penalty of 8.0 pounds per cubic inch assessed to base weights. 54 lbs x 8 lbs/ci = 432 lbs :eek:

Entries using stock-type suspension may deduct 50 pounds from base weights.

454 + F1R = 3782 lbs :eek:

Been awhile since we worked with blown race cars, but we went 8.60 at 3692# with a F1R and a 387ci LS engine at Thunder race in 03 or 04. One tenth per hundred pounds should be reasonable gain, so 8.20 should happen.

Kurt

when I said mid 8s, I consider 8.30-8.70 in that range...would be tough to get the car to leave hard enough to go much faster on a factory suspension I'd guess...especially since they don't permit wheelie bars

The guys in Extreme street (NMCA) have gone 7.9 with a F1R.


DRIVER NAME RECORD DATE SET
Elapsed Time Record Chuck Bartholme 7.981 April 15, 2007
Bradenton, FL
Top Speed Record Chuck Bartholme 174.31

I think we may be able to go low 8's with one set for maw effort.

That was the first 7 second extreme street pass ever.

A procharged car just went 6's in Canada as well, first 6 second centrifugal supercharged car I believe.

If I could keep the heads down I could run 8.80s with an F1A/347 and a hydraulic cam with an LS6 intake and stock TB on a good track. I have the 60 foots to go 8s I just cant keep the power up on the back half of the track because of the gaskets. Some guys dont mind pushing a quart or two of water a pass, I dont like it.

I would be happy with a 400cid LSX and an F1R with a cog or direct drive and a solid roller, thats an easy low 8 second combo if you can hook it up IMO.

Sorry it would be a 427.

I'm with Kurt, 8.2's is doable.

We might just find out :)

Sorry it would be a 427.

I'm with Kurt, 8.2's is doable.

We might just find out :)


Based on the "small block" weight system, you are still looking at a raceweight of 3566 lbs at that motor size (3400 + (27*8) - 50). they went 8.60 at 100lb heavier What is confusing is that "big block" has 3400 lbs for 477 cid and "small block" has 3400 lbs for 400 cid...that really doesn't make any sense to me...especially for weight adders...

note that most of the procharged combos come in at 360ish cid sizes. I would've considered LSX for my build...but its really difficult to get motor sizes down when the bores are so darn big :judge:

Big bores flow like a MOFO.

It would be hard for us to make it lighter than 3400 eith the heavy ass charger on it and my big ass driving.


Seems like the Big block guys have an advantage.

W2W also did it 4 years ago. Parts have gotten a little better since then.

Based on the "small block" weight system, you are still looking at a raceweight of 3566 lbs at that motor size (3400 + (27*8) - 50). they went 8.60 at 100lb heavier What is confusing is that "big block" has 3400 lbs for 477 cid and "small block" has 3400 lbs for 400 cid...that really doesn't make any sense to me...especially for weight adders...

note that most of the procharged combos come in at 360ish cid sizes. I would've considered LSX for my build...but its really difficult to get motor sizes down when the bores are so darn big :judge:
Doesn't the LSX come with a 3.9 bore?????

Doesn't the LSX come with a 3.9 bore?????

I think its 4.125 as shipped

I think its 4.125 as shipped

No

4.125 is the Max most engine builders are reccomending for power adder cars.


http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=740241

3-5/8" stroke high revver F T W :D

No

4.125 is the Max most engine builders are reccomending for power adder cars.


http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=740241

hmmmm....


could conceivably have a lsx block done to match my 4.010 pistons then.....then again....lsx is heavy :judge:

Good to know though....

hmmmm....


could conceivably have a lsx block done to match my 4.010 pistons then.....then again....lsx is heavy :judge:


Break the shit you have 1st then build one :jest: :judge: :drive:

Break the shit you have 1st then build one :jest: :judge: :drive:

yeah...thats what I'd do anyway.....have a pretty stout short already :nod:

when I said mid 8s, I consider 8.30-8.70 in that range...would be tough to get the car to leave hard enough to go much faster on a factory suspension I'd guess...especially since they don't permit wheelie bars

WEe know how to make cars leave and are pretty good at this point with setting up the suspention. :)

WEe know how to make cars leave and are pretty good at this point with setting up the suspention. :)

a torque arm will never leave as good as a properly tuned 4-link setup...stying with a TA will inherently leave some ET on the table

a torque arm will never leave as good as a properly tuned 4-link setup...stying with a TA will inherently leave some ET on the table
Why do you think some of the big hitters in radial stuff are building TA stuff? you need to watch more radial classes. Most classes mandate a stock style suspention with just boltin replacements. 4th gens are no slouch when done right. my car has been 1.31's on mt drag radials with 250-300 less than my latest setup. were also pulling near 200 lbs out of the car. I don't think getting it to 60 will be our issues. its the 170 mph and sub 5 second 1/8's we will need to work on. hell my little brothers 510 rwhp car goes 1.38 60's

Im not saying this will be easy. im just saying we are not woried about the first 100' after that we will be heavyer and have less hp than the big block SC cars. but were not going out thinking we can win that class we just hope to be close enough to get lucky once in a while. hell if we place 10th and run a full season it will still be fun.

Why do you think some of the big hitters in radial stuff are building TA stuff? you need to watch more radial classes. Most classes mandate a stock style suspention with just boltin replacements. 4th gens are no slouch when done right. my car has been 1.31's on mt drag radials with 250-300 less than my latest setup. were also pulling near 200 lbs out of the car. I don't think getting it to 60 will be our issues. its the 170 mph and sub 5 second 1/8's we will need to work on. hell my little brothers 510 rwhp car goes 1.38 60's

Im not saying this will be easy. im just saying we are not woried about the first 100' after that we will be heavyer and have less hp than the big block SC cars. but were not going out thinking we can win that class we just hope to be close enough to get lucky once in a while. hell if we place 10th and run a full season it will still be fun.

I'm not criticizing the fact you are staying TA suspension....I'm doing the same with mine in case I want to run a DR class later :jest:

I'm not criticizing the fact you are staying TA suspension....I'm doing the same with mine in case I want to run a DR class later :jest:

Oh i know im just saying we can't run 4 link in some of the stuff we are doing. we can run ta in everything. were gona run alot of dr classes. My car runs well within the dr rules.

We just got back from the track and we set timing at 14 degrees all was going good mine you the car was more lazy with the timing out.We then started to pill it up thinking leave timing out and creep up with the tuneup.As soon as we pilled up to a 33 we then pushed water about half gallon.I know this is not right and maybe the gaskets are to thin (40 tho) heads went through the normal heat cycle and were retorqued.This pushing water is getting old and we are not going to make any more power if we can't keep the heads on the motor.

so at what hp level do you push water? I dont know jet sizes

so at what hp level do you push water? I dont know jet sizes

I was pushing a Qt a pass @ 850-890 rwhp....

Yeh We Pushed Water To. Then We Heard About Using Yamalube (yamaha Brand Gasket In A Tube) And Appears To Have Solved The Problem With A 250 Shot. This Is With A Cometic .040 Gasket, 6.0 Iron Block With 11.1 Compression

Yeh We Pushed Water To. Then We Heard About Using Yamalube (yamaha Brand Gasket In A Tube) And Appears To Have Solved The Problem With A 250 Shot. This Is With A Cometic .040 Gasket, 6.0 Iron Block With 11.1 Compression


Sounds like your tune up is way off.

I sprayed a 250 all last year with no issues. .045 cometics

What kinds of tunes are you guys reccomending?

What kinds of tunes are you guys reccomending?

Old school rap / rock work good for me :drive: :)

yes lme told me with etheads, arp studs, and cosmetics I would be good for a 300shot. I am also interested in what tune wise. A/F ratio, timing I am guessing less timing

What kinds of tunes are you guys reccomending?


Most guys are way to lean and have way to much timing. Guys just don't get that timing without hp is worthless. also guys keep tuning these cars on dynojets with 1400-2000lb rollers .....I don't know any 2000 lb fbodys. LOL.

IF you free spin a 1400 lb roller and tune it it might like 28* on a 300 shot but put a 3400lb load on the car and it will detonate its @ss off!

A lot of guys are way too agressive tuning their cars, wayyy more aggressive than I am with Shiz and ATVs car anyway, and they dont seem to be going slower than many

Shiz saw lil more than a 300 shot, on pump gas (making power 8.90s-9.10s at 3600#, I see some saying they hit theirs with a 300 shot but it doesnt et or trap what most would think a car would on that kind of shot and we had little of the problem some guys have on 200-250 hits.) Were not doing anything out of the ordinary no 1/2 stud stuff

Thanks for commenting guys. Shiz are you running stock pcm or BS3? If BS3 what is your crank angle?

Stocker in spd density no funky chit there ;)

Thanks for commenting guys. Shiz are you running stock pcm or BS3? If BS3 what is your crank angle?

Stock pcm with grannys speed density tune . Jeff has really figured out some cool stuff and my car idles like stock and has good throttle transition even with the 1500 cfm 4 barrel TB.

If jeff would only get off his ass and send his sponsor stuff in guys could get some really cool n20 help!

Thanks for commenting guys. Shiz are you running stock pcm or BS3? If BS3 what is your crank angle?

no problem wed like to help more but we just have not seen some of these problems. But ill admit having jeff 5 minutes from me and were 10 minutes from the track has cut my learning curve way down.

Most guys are way to lean and have way to much timing. Guys just don't get that timing without hp is worthless. also guys keep tuning these cars on dynojets with 1400-2000lb rollers .....I don't know any 2000 lb fbodys. LOL.

IF you free spin a 1400 lb roller and tune it it might like 28* on a 300 shot but put a 3400lb load on the car and it will detonate its @ss off!

so how much timing should I pull on a 300shot? Where should my air/fuel ratio be? The motor runs on pump gas and the dedicated fuel system c16 or what ever you recommend. I dont want to be changing head gaskets all the time. I am going to try and hook a 300shot off the brake.

so how much timing should I pull on a 300shot? Where should my air/fuel ratio be? The motor runs on pump gas and the dedicated fuel system c16 or what ever you recommend. I dont want to be changing head gaskets all the time. I am going to try and hook a 300shot off the brake.

Id start at 15* dependign on where it makes power on the motor and 10.5 then work up not down. LOL that way once it stops going faster theres no need for more timing or less fuel

Id start at 15* dependign on where it makes power on the motor and 10.5 then work up not down. LOL that way once it stops going faster theres no need for more timing or less fuel
thats about what I thought. I was going to start at 14*

10.5 Af?

10.5 Af?

Yes...

10.5 Af?

YES. On most 300 hp nitrous cars theres probably 15 hp between 10.5 and 11.5. in my opinion a little extra fuel is a good thing for exhaust temps. but thats within a limit. i said start at 10.5 then you can go 3-5% AT A TIME UNTIL IT STOPS PICKING UP HP. we normally run it .2 lricher and a hair more timing down low and have it smoothly fall off . that helps flash the convertor.

Look at it this way. if a motor car likes 12.5(where mine likes it). and nitrous wants 9.0 if you car makes 400 on the motor and 300 more on the nitrous. that would be ~11.5 in a perfect world. but the diff from 10.5- 11.5 is probably 20 rwhp. so we would start at 10.5 then keep mooving up until its a neglagable gain. id guess 10.8-10.9. then with the lowest timing that makes the most hp you would be giving up 20hp on a 800 rwhp car but the heads are gona stay down and it wount mind when its 90deg in the summer.

mut thats just my opinion. im sure some tunning "GURU" will chime in and tell me im wrong and i don't know shit but it works for me.

YES.

mut thats just my opinion. im sure some tunning "GURU" will chime in and tell me im wrong and i don't know shit but it works for me.


Your right man... most start to high and that blows shit up.....
From low to high like you said.....

Makes perfect since to me... :devil:

10.5 Af?

Yes John thats A/F :)

Shiz and ATV gave me chit for leaving the tuneups "soft" for years until theyve seen everyone else grenade stuff trying to do less with more. I always had to tell them Id put the timing in it at the track and lean on it harder there, pull the laptop out surf the web for a minute and tunes all done! :jest:

Yes John thats A/F :)

Shiz and ATV gave me chit for leaving the tuneups "soft" for years until theyve seen everyone else grenade stuff trying to do less with more. I always had to tell them Id put the timing in it at the track and lean on it harder there, pull the laptop out surf the web for a minute and tunes all done! :jest:


Your gay :gtfo:

See how gay it is when you turn the DP in the next couple weeks and I leave 20 degrees in it and let er eat!

See how gay it is when you turn the DP in the next couple weeks and I leave 20 degrees in it and let er eat!


Next couple of weeks my ass. we will be dynoing it sat or sun and racing next weekend.

20* and my junk will pop on the dry shot alone :( :judge:


I'll kill you and bury you under the dyno !! :nutkick:

Next couple of weeks my ass. we will be dynoing it sat or sun and racing next weekend.

20* and my junk will pop on the dry shot alone :( :judge:


I'll kill you and bury you under the dyno !! :nutkick:

No bury him in the dyno hole and we will put the dyno at my house. You getting off early so we can plumb that DP?

Sent you a PM shiz.