Generation IV Internal Engine - WTF is wrong here?




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jeremym
06-27-2007, 08:06 PM
I have the TEA/TFS 235cc heads and I dynod the car and it made 525rwhp 497rwtq. :cry: What could be wrong? I took the LS6 heads and put these heads on and did not gain anything.


turbo'd stang
06-27-2007, 09:05 PM
I have the TEA/TFS 235cc heads and I dynod the car and it made 525rwhp 497rwtq. :cry: What could be wrong?

What cam and intake? Sounds like you have a good foundation, heads have proven to make the power...gotta be one of the above. I read where you tuned it without a WB, so I'm sure that is costing some power. I found my car to be VERY sensitive to AF changes vs HP.

jeremym
06-27-2007, 09:25 PM
What cam and intake? Sounds like you have a good foundation, heads have proven to make the power...gotta be one of the above. I read where you tuned it without a WB, so I'm sure that is costing some power. I found my car to be VERY sensitive to AF changes vs HP.
Cam is 244/248..612/615..112LSA and the intake is FAST 90 / NW 90. Well we tuned it but they said they thought the A/F was acting up. The problem is I did not gain anything from the head swap from LS6's


jeremym
06-27-2007, 09:29 PM
What cam and intake? Sounds like you have a good foundation, heads have proven to make the power...gotta be one of the above. I read where you tuned it without a WB, so I'm sure that is costing some power. I found my car to be VERY sensitive to AF changes vs HP.
I agree the heads should be bad ass, but I dont what the problem is.

turbo'd stang
06-27-2007, 09:34 PM
If it were my motor, I would change that cam and have that intake ported. You might not pick up anything, depends on how nice your LS6 heads were.

turbo'd stang
06-27-2007, 09:34 PM
What are you spinning it to?

Haans249
06-28-2007, 02:42 AM
I agree, a big part of the vengeance setup were the cubes, compression, and porting/port matching of the FAST 90. Honestly, 530rwhp and 500 rwtrq is nothing to be yelling at with the setup and size cam that you have. What is your compression? Lift of the cam?

burbanman
06-28-2007, 09:56 AM
Need some more info on your setup..... comp ratio, pushrod length, intake ported, ect. Also, what is the drivetrain, I see M6, but what rear? And lastly, what kind of dyno?

I would probably start with the cam, but need to know more to really say. I thought I read you are running the HS rockers, correct?

Robin L
06-28-2007, 01:34 PM
Usually when we didn't see change on the dyno from mods it was somehthing holding it back.

First I would look at the fuel system. Is the pump and injectors big enough? How about the lines and rails?

What kind of intake air system are you using? Could that be holding it back?

Headers, exhaust also but not too likely.

We would see the power go flat on the dyno. 90% of the time they customer didn't have enough pump. You could add fuel via the computer or Fuel pressure but it would still hit a wall.

Good luck!


Robin

Ron@Vengeance
06-28-2007, 02:13 PM
You might want to be a little more descriptive in your original post if you are trying to figure out what is wrong. As it has been said in this thread your #s are damn good for your mods..Also, the TFS heads have been proven many times now so I HIGHLY doubt it is in your heads.
Last time we talked you were going to have your bottom end rebuilt due to the guys not balancing your rotating assembly each time it blew up... I would start there and see what happens if I were in your shoes.

Goodluck and let us know if there is anything we can do for you.

Ron

jeremym
06-28-2007, 08:45 PM
Sorry for not enough info.My comp is 11.8. Cam is 244/248..612/615..112LSA ,90mm lid ,SLP bellow, 90/90 unported, 42 lbs injectors, Aeromotive fuel pump, KOOK 1 7/8 LT with 3inch true duels and a stock 10 bolt. What cam should I use. With the TFS you dont have to use high lift cams but dur. should I go with. 250's or 260's.

jeremym
06-28-2007, 08:47 PM
You might want to be a little more descriptive in your original post if you are trying to figure out what is wrong. As it has been said in this thread your #s are damn good for your mods..Also, the TFS heads have been proven many times now so I HIGHLY doubt it is in your heads.
Last time we talked you were going to have your bottom end rebuilt due to the guys not balancing your rotating assembly each time it blew up... I would start there and see what happens if I were in your shoes.

Goodluck and let us know if there is anything we can do for you.

Ron
My guys replaced a piston due to some issues. What cam do you think I should use? PM if it is a secret

Beaflag VonRathburg
06-28-2007, 08:57 PM
Sorry for not enough info.My comp is 11.8. Cam is 244/248..612/615..112LSA ,90mm lid ,SLP bellow, 90/90 unported, 42 lbs injectors, Aeromotive fuel pump, KOOK 1 7/8 LT with 3inch true duels and a stock 10 bolt. What cam should I use. With the TFS you dont have to use high lift cams but dur. should I go with. 250's or 260's.


:guns: :aug2: :jest:

I'm not a big fan of the .060 honing, but we've gone back and forth on this quite a few times. Is the engine consuming any liquids? Coolant? Oil? Plugs look alright?

Haans249
06-29-2007, 03:05 AM
I can almost guarantee you that it is the FAST intake unported. I would put a large wager that if you were to get it ported/ and port matched to your TFS heads, that you would pick up 25-30 rwhp and 20ftlbs depending on how good the job is. That would put you at 550rwhp which is awesome for your setup. Start there, because everything else in your setup sounds good, except the unported FAST 90.

Best Regards,
Adrian

burbanman
06-29-2007, 10:08 AM
Sorry for not enough info.My comp is 11.8. Cam is 244/248..612/615..112LSA ,90mm lid ,SLP bellow, 90/90 unported, 42 lbs injectors, Aeromotive fuel pump, KOOK 1 7/8 LT with 3inch true duels and a stock 10 bolt. What cam should I use. With the TFS you dont have to use high lift cams but dur. should I go with. 250's or 260's.


a couple of things..... 1st: as stated, you need to port the intake to match the heads...... the TFS 235 port is MUCH different than that intake is stock. 2nd: cam may have been great for you rold heads, but I think it is lacking a little for the 235's....... they do not require crazy lift, but I would think something in the 250-254 on intake and 258-262 on exhaust would be about perfect........ Otherwise, those numbers are not bad, all other things considering


What are your ultimate goals with the car? How does it run? track times? Cant launch very hard on a stock 10bolt

WizeAss
06-29-2007, 01:39 PM
stop looking at peak numbers Jeremy. Look at the curve. If you picked up in the curve, then the intake is the problem. If you didnt pick up anywhere, then you have other issues. We assume (other then TEA BSing about flow numbers just to sell heads) that the heads flow better then Pete (RPM's LS6 heads) ......

look at the chart. also was it the same dyno? same temp? I personally think you need to find another engine builder.... I have seen and heard many issues with engines from that joint! There are fellas that charge the same rates but have 10x's the quality and knowledge as Watt...... LME, HKE, etc etc.....

Good luck.

and port the fast...... I am sure your intake is maxed thanks to good flowing heads.

Ron@Vengeance
06-29-2007, 02:02 PM
I doubt that TEA is BSing about flow #s to sell heads. We just made 609rwhp on pump gas thru cats with a 440 and their 235s and ported FAST.

I agree that the intake needs to be ported and I would definately look into having the shortblock freshened up by a reputable shop.


stop looking at peak numbers Jeremy. Look at the curve. If you picked up in the curve, then the intake is the problem. If you didnt pick up anywhere, then you have other issues. We assume (other then TEA BSing about flow numbers just to sell heads) that the heads flow better then Pete (RPM's LS6 heads) ......

look at the chart. also was it the same dyno? same temp? I personally think you need to find another engine builder.... I have seen and heard many issues with engines from that joint! There are fellas that charge the same rates but have 10x's the quality and knowledge as Watt...... LME, HKE, etc etc.....

Good luck.

and port the fast...... I am sure your intake is maxed thanks to good flowing heads.

WOTFMAN
06-30-2007, 03:00 PM
I doubt that TEA is BSing about flow #s to sell heads. We just made 609rwhp on pump gas thru cats with a 440 and their 235s and ported FAST.

I agree that the intake needs to be ported and I would definately look into having the shortblock freshened up by a reputable shop.

Their bench is well known to be high. Then they tell you to send them back to show you they are what they are as the left TEA...instead of flowing them on another bench that is more in target. Flow numbers dont tell the complete equation anyway. They are a starting point. The heads do well. They are decent at that. They are not the pimp diggity of all heads. There are better LS6 ports out there that have cleaned house over the TFS heads on the same bench they were flowed on...ANd backed up by an engine dyno to verify that the LS6 heads were not just flow bench happy. With that said, this guy got sucked into the TFS heads being almight when they arent all cracked up to be what they are made out to be. Too many dyno queens live on her. Show some real track results. A well done cylinder head will clean house on those heads all day long. They are a good street heat but definitely not worth the money and exaggeration that they have been talked up to be.

ls1muscle
06-30-2007, 04:17 PM
In my opinion, you should stop getting wrapped up in peak dyno #'s. People see 500+ rwhp 346's and then think that if they don't make 580 rwhp from their bigger cube motor, then it's a pos. I would do like everyone is saying and port + port match the intake.

Or you could just keep adding duration :eyes: Why a 254/260 cam.. when you could do a 274/280. Your 244/248 cam is small, that's for a 346 :jest:

Ron@Vengeance
06-30-2007, 04:47 PM
If you say so........

Their bench is well known to be high. Then they tell you to send them back to show you they are what they are as the left TEA...instead of flowing them on another bench that is more in target. Flow numbers dont tell the complete equation anyway. They are a starting point. The heads do well. They are decent at that. They are not the pimp diggity of all heads. There are better LS6 ports out there that have cleaned house over the TFS heads on the same bench they were flowed on...ANd backed up by an engine dyno to verify that the LS6 heads were not just flow bench happy. With that said, this guy got sucked into the TFS heads being almight when they arent all cracked up to be what they are made out to be. Too many dyno queens live on her. Show some real track results. A well done cylinder head will clean house on those heads all day long. They are a good street heat but definitely not worth the money and exaggeration that they have been talked up to be.

WizeAss
06-30-2007, 05:17 PM
In my opinion, you should stop getting wrapped up in peak dyno #'s. People see 500+ rwhp 346's and then think that if they don't make 580 rwhp from their bigger cube motor, then it's a pos. I would do like everyone is saying and port + port match the intake.

Or you could just keep adding duration :eyes: Why a 254/260 cam.. when you could do a 274/280. Your 244/248 cam is small, that's for a 346 :jest:

my point exactly....

that 346 that dynos 510rwhp.....cant compete with a 408 that dynos 510rwhp...... that extra stroke will mean a better average HP.

Also....Jerm, if you want to make power...... get suspension... stop putting money in heads and cams. Put it in the rear end..... tq arm, weight reduction, roll bar, transmission and tires..... that way you can actually use all that power you are making!

WOTFMAN
07-02-2007, 05:16 PM
If you say so........I know so.

Mike@TEA
07-05-2007, 04:24 PM
I have the TEA/TFS 235cc heads and I dynod the car and it made 525rwhp 497rwtq. :cry: What could be wrong? I took the LS6 heads and put these heads on and did not gain anything.

Jeremy, I too am disappointed the heads did not find you extra power you had hoped for, but isn't one of the reasons you bought these heads was because your old Ls-6 heads were ~57-58cc and you needed to drop alot of SCR just to drive the car without knock? Your new heads cc'd @ 68cc chamber volume which by my calculations is over 1 1/2 points of compression. I think the loss of compression may explain why the heads appear to be under performing. Please correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that was one of the primary reasons you had originally called about buying new heads. I also agree it would be cool to see how a ported fast would work on your current setup.

WizeAss
07-05-2007, 04:52 PM
Jeremy, I too am disappointed the heads did not find you extra power you had hoped for, but isn't one of the reasons you bought these heads was because your old Ls-6 heads were ~57-58cc and you needed to drop alot of SCR just to drive the car without knock? Your new heads cc'd @ 68cc chamber volume which by my calculations is over 1 1/2 points of compression. I think the loss of compression may explain why the heads appear to be under performing. Please correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that was one of the primary reasons you had originally called about buying new heads. I also agree it would be cool to see how a ported fast would work on your current setup.


that is exactly what I was thinking! Those heads he had done by Pete in Florida may put of good numbers... but RPM milled the shit out of em. without knock in the texas heat he is making more power. now he needs to concentrate on putting it to the ground! 500+rwhp on motor is nothing to bitch about!

jeremym
07-05-2007, 07:07 PM
Jeremy, I too am disappointed the heads did not find you extra power you had hoped for, but isn't one of the reasons you bought these heads was because your old Ls-6 heads were ~57-58cc and you needed to drop alot of SCR just to drive the car without knock? Your new heads cc'd @ 68cc chamber volume which by my calculations is over 1 1/2 points of compression. I think the loss of compression may explain why the heads appear to be under performing. Please correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that was one of the primary reasons you had originally called about buying new heads. I also agree it would be cool to see how a ported fast would work on your current setup.
You are totally right about the comp. issue. I am sending my FAST to Ron at Veng. and letting him port match and do his magic. My comp is 11.8 and I have seen a hand full of cars putting down some good #'s with the same comp.

66deuce
07-08-2007, 08:02 AM
if you lost a 1 1/2 point CR and are seeing the same output as before,than the heads are definately making power..get that Fast ported,from what i've seen on here it should be worth 15-20 hp on a combo like yours..

MPHmotorsports
07-08-2007, 08:58 AM
You are totally right about the comp. issue. I am sending my FAST to Ron at Veng. and letting him port match and do his magic. My comp is 11.8 and I have seen a hand full of cars putting down some good #'s with the same comp.

:judge: :judge: :judge: :judge:
You deserve these for leaving out the C/R drop in your original thread.
:) just messing with ya man. :jest:
I don't believe this made for a huge change but it's not a apples to apples comparison anymore and "could be" a power loss in compression alone.
You were in the 13:1 range before which is a bunch for 93 octane and I can see why you were having knock issues.
Ron will take care of you on the porting. He is getting a great rep for that these days. Also post your graph, and overlay it with your old graph. I bet the new combo probably shines in the mid range. As far as "peak" numbers go... I also agree that the fast 90 is holding the peak number back.
It could have been holding the ported LS6 head back as well we will never know, but to me it is worth the time and money to have it ported and retuned to see how impressive the gains are.
Good luck on the combo.
Give us a call if you need that rear end, were in Ft. Myers and you are more then welcome to come down and pick it up or have it installed.
Jeremy

MPHmotorsports
07-08-2007, 09:12 AM
I know so.

Please try and posts facts and not opinions. You have provided no proof. And you haven't realized that a flow number doesn't make a head a good head. Port the bitch out to 245cc's to get a great number and lose in many other areas. I don't mind listening to facts that you have hand on knowledge with but random B/S posts are useless on this site in this section.
I can tell you that 80% of the top dynoing NA 346/347 Hyd roller cars have either AFR ETP or TFS heads on them.
Why that might not clearly make them a better head then the best LS6 ported head it does make them more consistence.
I have used a ton of ported LS6 heads, and from many well known porters. MTI,TEA,TSP,Futural,Absolute Speed, Walt (local ported in Tampa),Air Flow Technology (Local porter in Ft. Lauderdale), LME, to name a few. Some port's that are clearly better then other's on that list as well. They still have their spot in this field and some that are top notch and make great power often. But to compare against some of the finer aftermarket heads in a apples to apples comparison would be tough for the ported LS6 world.
Please don't get me wrong I am not saying that a real quality port can compete, but on average and as far as consistent the big boys are the big boys for a reason.

LSPerformance
07-08-2007, 11:02 AM
I'd like to see more e.t. slips myself, I wouldn't waste my time getting whipped up in a frenzy over anyone's dyno numbers. I go back to the same dyno EVERY time so I know if I have made legitimate gains, not to brag about the numbers. Take it to the track where ALL the B.S. stops, only then will you know what you really have.

WizeAss
07-08-2007, 12:37 PM
I'd like to see more e.t. slips myself, I wouldn't waste my time getting whipped up in a frenzy over anyone's dyno numbers. I go back to the same dyno EVERY time so I know if I have made legitimate gains, not to brag about the numbers. Take it to the track where ALL the B.S. stops, only then will you know what you really have.
this is the last car you will see at the track.... no suspension, 6 speed, no tires, and a stock 10 bolt. ='s BOOM BITCH!

chae
07-08-2007, 12:52 PM
Also....Jerm, if you want to make power...... get suspension... stop putting money in heads and cams. Put it in the rear end..... tq arm, weight reduction, roll bar, transmission and tires..... that way you can actually use all that power you are making!

:chug: