Mass Air Flow Sensor Delete?????
07-31-2007, 09:32 AM
#1
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Mass Air Flow Sensor Delete????? Ok so a little backround to my project. I am doing a cam swap in my 99 Z28, i have the MS3 cam with dual valve springs, 30lb SVO injectors, LS6 Intake, Long Tube Headers and true duals with no cats.
So my question is, when i get a tune can i have the mass air flow sensor deleted? I know that you can use the MAP Sensor to get the same readings. I also have a friend that has a car with no mass air flow. So let me know what you guys think..
So my question is, when i get a tune can i have the mass air flow sensor deleted? I know that you can use the MAP Sensor to get the same readings. I also have a friend that has a car with no mass air flow. So let me know what you guys think..
07-31-2007, 09:56 AM
#2
Moved from advanced tech section.
You can turn off the MAF and keep it in there or you can turn it off and remove the potential restriction. Running in speed density is what many of us do and with the proper tune, it may actually give you some nice advantages.
You can turn off the MAF and keep it in there or you can turn it off and remove the potential restriction. Running in speed density is what many of us do and with the proper tune, it may actually give you some nice advantages.
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2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2018 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 Pat G tuned.
LS1,LS2,LS3,LS7,LT1 Custom Camshaft Specialist For custom camshaft help press here.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2018 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 Pat G tuned.
LS1,LS2,LS3,LS7,LT1 Custom Camshaft Specialist For custom camshaft help press here.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
07-31-2007, 10:05 AM
#3
Take a look at this thread. It'll answer a few questions.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/pcm-diagnostics-tuning/509481-advantages-disadvantages-sd.html
The map sensor will not give you the same readings as the maf by the way. They are 2 totally different sensors. With Speed Density, you'd basically be taking the Maf out of the final formula that's used to determine your fueling. If you don't want to get a new tune 4 times a year (one for each season), then you should keep your maf. Just my opinion cause the maf adjusts your fueling for weather changes. But then again...that's a big cam
https://ls1tech.com/forums/pcm-diagnostics-tuning/509481-advantages-disadvantages-sd.html
The map sensor will not give you the same readings as the maf by the way. They are 2 totally different sensors. With Speed Density, you'd basically be taking the Maf out of the final formula that's used to determine your fueling. If you don't want to get a new tune 4 times a year (one for each season), then you should keep your maf. Just my opinion cause the maf adjusts your fueling for weather changes. But then again...that's a big cam
07-31-2007, 10:33 AM
#4
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Ok so if i get a good tune i should be able to run the Speed Density set up no problem right? Or will i have troubles in different times of year? The car is a daily driver for now so i need it to run perfect all the time. But i also want to get the most performance out of it as possible.
07-31-2007, 01:59 PM
#5
To get the most performance possible...I've been told you'd need 4 tunes with SD. You would probably be fine with one, it would just be slightly off if the weather changed. From what I've seen, the people that run SD are the ones that tune it themselves since theres a lot more tuning involved.
07-31-2007, 02:25 PM
#6
Originally Posted by Xtnct00WS6
To get the most performance possible...I've been told you'd need 4 tunes with SD. You would probably be fine with one, it would just be slightly off if the weather changed. From what I've seen, the people that run SD are the ones that tune it themselves since theres a lot more tuning involved.
What you are referring to is closed loop vs open loop. Speed Density can be either CL or OL. If he chooses to run CLSD, the ECM will correct the fuel based on the narrow band O2 voltages, this will keep the fuel from becoming to lean ... especially at WOT. Many people are running CLSD setup and on one tune throughout the year, some for more then a couple already. I had my SS in CLSD for a couple of years, going from sea level to 4000 feet above sea level, my fuel trims stayed at -4% to 0%.
Now to answer the question of MAF vs SD ... the only time I delete the MAF is if the cam overlap is too much for the MAF to register proper airflow readings at low RPMs, or if the MAF will be maxed out (typically while in boost over 4psi). Otherwise there is no advantage to loosing the MAF. The stock OS uses the VE Table for SD under throttle trnasitions, and the MAF for steady state or WOT over 4000 rpms.
07-31-2007, 02:37 PM
#7
Originally Posted by 12secSS
That is some serious BS!
What you are referring to is closed loop vs open loop. Speed Density can be either CL or OL. If he chooses to run CLSD, the ECM will correct the fuel based on the narrow band O2 voltages, this will keep the fuel from becoming to lean ... especially at WOT. Many people are running CLSD setup and on one tune throughout the year, some for more then a couple already. I had my SS in CLSD for a couple of years, going from sea level to 4000 feet above sea level, my fuel trims stayed at -4% to 0%.
Now to answer the question of MAF vs SD ... the only time I delete the MAF is if the cam overlap is too much for the MAF to register proper airflow readings at low RPMs, or if the MAF will be maxed out (typically while in boost over 4psi). Otherwise there is no advantage to loosing the MAF. The stock OS uses the VE Table for SD under throttle trnasitions, and the MAF for steady state or WOT over 4000 rpms.
What you are referring to is closed loop vs open loop. Speed Density can be either CL or OL. If he chooses to run CLSD, the ECM will correct the fuel based on the narrow band O2 voltages, this will keep the fuel from becoming to lean ... especially at WOT. Many people are running CLSD setup and on one tune throughout the year, some for more then a couple already. I had my SS in CLSD for a couple of years, going from sea level to 4000 feet above sea level, my fuel trims stayed at -4% to 0%.
Now to answer the question of MAF vs SD ... the only time I delete the MAF is if the cam overlap is too much for the MAF to register proper airflow readings at low RPMs, or if the MAF will be maxed out (typically while in boost over 4psi). Otherwise there is no advantage to loosing the MAF. The stock OS uses the VE Table for SD under throttle trnasitions, and the MAF for steady state or WOT over 4000 rpms.
This is so correct. I too, run closed loop speed density along with TPS vs rpm VE tuning for all rpm below 2000. My fueling is much more accurate and responsive than it ever was running a MAF. My big cam with ugly overlap seems very tame as a result. 
Closed loop is the way to run speed density all 4 seasons and never have to touch the tune.
__________________
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2018 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 Pat G tuned.
LS1,LS2,LS3,LS7,LT1 Custom Camshaft Specialist For custom camshaft help press here.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2018 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 Pat G tuned.
LS1,LS2,LS3,LS7,LT1 Custom Camshaft Specialist For custom camshaft help press here.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
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07-31-2007, 02:40 PM
#8
I've been advised by two different dedicated well respected tuners(on this board) to stick with the MAF. There can be a 5-7 hp gain going SD but the gas consumption isnt worth it is one of the reason I was dissuaded. There are other things being atmospheric that I'm not qaulified to go into but I got the jest of it and took the advice.
07-31-2007, 03:09 PM
#9
Originally Posted by Xtnct00WS6
Take a look at this thread. It'll answer a few questions.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=509481
The map sensor will not give you the same readings as the maf by the way. They are 2 totally different sensors. With Speed Density, you'd basically be taking the Maf out of the final formula that's used to determine your fueling. If you don't want to get a new tune 4 times a year (one for each season), then you should keep your maf. Just my opinion cause the maf adjusts your fueling for weather changes. But then again...that's a big cam
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=509481
The map sensor will not give you the same readings as the maf by the way. They are 2 totally different sensors. With Speed Density, you'd basically be taking the Maf out of the final formula that's used to determine your fueling. If you don't want to get a new tune 4 times a year (one for each season), then you should keep your maf. Just my opinion cause the maf adjusts your fueling for weather changes. But then again...that's a big cam
Must not change much then 
07-31-2007, 03:17 PM
#12
Originally Posted by 12secSS
That is some serious BS!
What you are referring to is closed loop vs open loop. Speed Density can be either CL or OL. If he chooses to run CLSD, the ECM will correct the fuel based on the narrow band O2 voltages, this will keep the fuel from becoming to lean ... especially at WOT. Many people are running CLSD setup and on one tune throughout the year, some for more then a couple already. I had my SS in CLSD for a couple of years, going from sea level to 4000 feet above sea level, my fuel trims stayed at -4% to 0%.
Now to answer the question of MAF vs SD ... the only time I delete the MAF is if the cam overlap is too much for the MAF to register proper airflow readings at low RPMs, or if the MAF will be maxed out (typically while in boost over 4psi). Otherwise there is no advantage to loosing the MAF. The stock OS uses the VE Table for SD under throttle trnasitions, and the MAF for steady state or WOT over 4000 rpms.
What you are referring to is closed loop vs open loop. Speed Density can be either CL or OL. If he chooses to run CLSD, the ECM will correct the fuel based on the narrow band O2 voltages, this will keep the fuel from becoming to lean ... especially at WOT. Many people are running CLSD setup and on one tune throughout the year, some for more then a couple already. I had my SS in CLSD for a couple of years, going from sea level to 4000 feet above sea level, my fuel trims stayed at -4% to 0%.
Now to answer the question of MAF vs SD ... the only time I delete the MAF is if the cam overlap is too much for the MAF to register proper airflow readings at low RPMs, or if the MAF will be maxed out (typically while in boost over 4psi). Otherwise there is no advantage to loosing the MAF. The stock OS uses the VE Table for SD under throttle trnasitions, and the MAF for steady state or WOT over 4000 rpms.
What are your thoughts on this post from the link I posted earlier? https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....1&postcount=18Do you think the people having problems with SD are doing OLSD?
Thanks! Just trying to learn here too
Last edited by Xtnct00WS6; 07-31-2007 at 03:30 PM.
07-31-2007, 03:19 PM
#13
Originally Posted by Slowhawk
BTW-they are open loop SD.A/F is the same from sea level to 4k feet and all seasons so far. Gas mileage is excellent too.
__________________
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2018 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 Pat G tuned.
LS1,LS2,LS3,LS7,LT1 Custom Camshaft Specialist For custom camshaft help press here.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2018 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 Pat G tuned.
LS1,LS2,LS3,LS7,LT1 Custom Camshaft Specialist For custom camshaft help press here.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
07-31-2007, 09:56 PM
#17
Originally Posted by Prerun4fun13
So with the ms3 should i or shouldnt i delete my MAF????
A real benefit of the MAF is that it will do some correction if you add more mods.
Another note to OLSD people. None of my tunes have smooth VE tables.If they are smoothed the cars run like crap because of lean/rich cells.
Last edited by Slowhawk; 07-31-2007 at 10:01 PM.
07-31-2007, 10:13 PM
#18
The VE CAN'T be smooth when you have a non-boost/vac referenced regulator. The IFR table would have to be much larger and perfectly linear for that to be the case. The VE table is actually fudged to make up for this lack of resolution/linearity. This is disregarding other non-linear events, such as spikes in intake/exhaust wave tuning. However, the smoothing function in most tuning software can be really handy for "roughing in" the table on a new setup. Damnit, I just realized I am simultaneously hijacking and going off-topic in the same thread. Sorry.
08-01-2007, 01:17 AM
#19
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Lol looks like i may have started a battle.
Ok so i belive im just gonna stick with the MAF, now is the stock one good or do i need some fancy SLP unit??
Ok so i belive im just gonna stick with the MAF, now is the stock one good or do i need some fancy SLP unit??
08-01-2007, 01:33 AM
#20
Gas milage seemed to pick up for me when I went OLSD.
You don't really need a SLP Maf. I have one and now it just sits in a box. Didn't do anything for me. It is the larger one that they did the resistor mod one so you just plug it in. Doesn't very little.
You don't really need a SLP Maf. I have one and now it just sits in a box. Didn't do anything for me. It is the larger one that they did the resistor mod one so you just plug it in. Doesn't very little.