eb02z06

iTrader: (18)

Just like the title says-I want to spin my motor to 7500-what do I need?. Some background-not sure if any of you are mustang guys here. A shop that is called Anderson Ford Motorsport , sells a line of hydrauilc roller cams, springs and retainers that are supposed to rev to pass 7500 using factory lifters. Is it possible with our 347's? My goal is to spin the motor higher-make more boost to get a widerpowerband so the car doesn't kill itself out of the hole. You could ask why not just add a smaller blower pulley-but that leads to slip. Any idea's?

thanks!

WOTFMAN

iTrader: (3)

rev kit and good lifters. Lightweight valves, and hardware.

Paint_It_Black

iTrader: (1)

the standard LS7 lifters should be ok, but you can always upgrade to the hydraulic "caddy racing" lifters, which have proven stable at 8000 rpm. I would go with some shaft mounted roller rockers, set proper plunger depth, PR length, etc.. check all the details, you don't want any odd harmonics in your valvetrain. I'm not sure exactly how much seat pressure you'd need in the springs though, not sure how much boost or what lobes you're using.. but going by your times you're running quite a bit of boost so I'd expect you'd be running duals.. maybe you want to see what the comp 928's are like when they come out

JimMueller

iTrader: (9)

I sort of went through this exercise recently although for a N/A 347ci application. This is what I used:

Cadillac Racing lifters
Ray Mac rev kit (pics below)
Crane 3/8"x.080 pushrods
PRC Platinum Dual springs (included on TSP 5.3l heads)

The Caddy lifters are proven stable to 8000RPM, but on a lightweight racing valvetrain. I'm not convinced our typical 100g intake valves and 90g exhaust valves fall into that arena.

A beehive valvespring would be better for harmonics, but I'm running .650 lift on LSK lobes so I stuck with the duals. A less aggressive lobe combined with the beehives seems like a better solution. The Caddy lifter skirts were a bit close for comfort (.030), but after calling a few shops they indicated I was either at the minimum clearance or that my lack of deflection wouldn't cause a problem. If I were to do it over and the cam would match, I'd go for the latest iteration of the Crane lifter (even over the Morels).

Pushrods should be as stiff as necessary to avoid deflection. All the big pushrod vendors (Smith Bros, Manton, Trend) all state the pushrod is on the slow side of the valvetrain and thus extra mass is not a significant concern compared to avoiding deflection.

If I had the funds, I would have sprung for the Crane Polymatrix rocker arms as well. You'll need better rod bolts (Katech or ARP, opinions vary) and if you're doing any type of endurance racing an Accusump and/or an oil cooling solution would be a good idea also.

Some photos of the rev-kit:







..and a pic of the lifter skirt clearance...

eb02z06

iTrader: (18)

I think the pushrods size is very overlooked and a great point. What valvetrain options are there to get that weight down? What I don't understand is my motor itself probably revs on it's own to 6500 with no blower, 232/242 XER cam, 10.2SCR, CNC LS6 heads-stock valves. If the blower can keep making boost beyond 6500-won't it keep pushing the powerband upward?

eb02z06

iTrader: (18)

Car only made 12.5psi on that pass-my belt was slipping and was one lenght too long-I have that fixed and now I see 20 psi. I'm using the GM LS7 lifters and Patriot duals.

Specialized

iTrader: (15)

I was going to say, on a forged 347 with an F1c, you didnt seem to go that fast. Don't take that as an insult- I just see so much more potential with that setup. Still on an IRS (of some sort) setup?


IIRC-with my GTP; I was spinning to 6500 and making roughly 16lbs of boost on a stock(ported outlet) m90 with meth/pump gas. I can recall I had my stock revlimiter originally set at 6200 and was only seeing about 14.5lbs (logged). If I had the *****- and the cash to keep building more motors- I wouldve spun it to around 7k because that thing saw boost and just took off- Im not quite sure what its like in an ls(x) for topend with a centifugal s/c because roots is a little different- its kinda a pusher not a compressor. But I would assume that the higher rpms would only lag a bit more because at that high a compressor/blade speed/rpm, it would take a ton more power to spin it that additional rpm.

eb02z06

iTrader: (18)

No offense taken bro. This what I'm saying-typically the motor combo is good for 6500 rpm-wouldn't boost typically push that rpm band further out-as long as it's making boost?

Specialized

iTrader: (15)

I think the power band IS pushed higher as you stated but I think with these snail blowers, its more a matter of how much (exponentially speaking) more power it will take just to spin that blower THAT much higher. Someone around here (more than likely a sponsor with one of these in a shop car/customer car) with some sort of engineering degree (im working on that, not quite there yet) can explain the thermo/fluid-dynamics around spinning that blower that much higher. Maybe contact an aerospace/aeronautics engineer and see what they use to calculate max-efficiency flow-throughput on a jet engine and you would be on the path to figuring out the highest efficient point of RPM on the compressor wheel so you're not over working it- Im sure there IS some sort of threshold, (right?) there's got to be.

Paint_It_Black

iTrader: (1)

there is something that will tell him.. it's called a compresser map.

Specialized

iTrader: (15)

Well maybe you could see by just doing a couple of quick (relatively speaking) tests.

If your car still has a maf on it, just do some WOT pulls, and log them.

Put into an excel sheet- MAF values at different RPM (you have to make sure youre at >90%tps), MAP, and IAT. Calculate the blower wheel RPM by figuring the size of the blower pulley in respect to the crank pulley and calculate from there. Then- swap out blower pullies and do the same thing again- figure out where the sweet spot is. I would do this over the course of a weekend or take a day or two during the week and just take your time. I mean- environmental changes can greatly effect this as well- so if you can- try to make the tests as equal as possible (humidity/outside temp/DA/etc.)

Specialized

iTrader: (15)

s/cs have compressor maps as do turbos? I didnt know this. Okay easy then. :doh: why didnt I think of this before, lol.


EDIT: was just pokin around and I cant see that compressor maps are as widely available for s/cs as they are for specific turbo models.. Guess that's out.


If he did do this test that I kinda outlined- I bet there would be a ton of people begging for the info. Because even though Im sure someone thinks they know the sweet-spot for the blower, its somewhere else.

Paint_It_Black

iTrader: (1)

They do.. but good luck getting one out of ATI, they don't feel that the public needs this info. ATI feels it's their proprietary info and once you buy it, it's yours.

Vortech has all their maps pretty readily available according to one of my sources, if you ask the right people.

Someone in the FI section MIGHT have gotten a hold of one and MIGHT see the thread, and MIGHT share it.

eb02z06

iTrader: (18)

Anyone I know going FAST with a Ysi or F1R are over spinning them ALOT. I think the YSi is rated to 65,000-the Renegade guys with the 8" crank, 3" blower that buzz to 8000 rpm have the blower up to 73 600 rpm-and there making 31 pounds of boost! As far as my MAF-it's done reading at 4500 rpm-then it's all pe table.

JimMueller

iTrader: (9)

I'll be the first to say I can't help you with the specific FI inquiries. But Ferrea and Manley make nice lightweight/hollow valves. That might save you 15g per intake and maybe 10g per exhaust valve. These are the weights I collected during assembly:

Eagle 6.100 rods (no lightweight - 644g, B.E. 462g)
Wiseco pistons (426g)
Wiseco piston pins (49g)
Wiseco pin locks (4g)
Crankshaft inserts (89g)
Bob weight (1784g)
Ti retainers (11g)
OEM rocker arms (142g)
Caddy lifters (128g)
PRC Dual Platinum spring (94g)
Intake valve (99g)
Exhaust valve (91g)

I know you can get lighter pistons, rods, and valves. I'd bet the aftermarket rockers are lighter, not sure about the lifters. But don't foresake strength for mass. Wiseco advised they'd be able to build be a N/A piston slightly less than 400g, and if I switched to a 6.125 rod then the piston would weigh even less.

eb02z06

iTrader: (18)

I have the Compstar 6.125 h-beams with Wiseco "off the shelf" Flatops. I know the guys in Renegade are running aluminum rods but it's just not feasable in a street car.

NemesisC5

Hey Bro, I love RPM's!!...My rev limiter is set at 6900 rpm and I have to be mindful not to bounce it. Will your motor not spin to 7500 rpm, or are you just looking for lightweight parts that will make it easier on the motor?...Good Luck Arun, I'll be keeping an eye on this one for my future build

Randy WS6

iTrader: (69)

On the Rev Kit . what keeps the lifter from spinning in the bore and whipping the cam out. I would like a set for my stroker. and were did you get them and price.
Thanks,Randy

JimMueller

iTrader: (9)

The picture of the bottom didn't come out for some reason. There are recesses in the bottom piece of billet which are shaped to let the lifter slide in but not rotate, maybe 1/4" when out of the block. The top piece of billet needs to be between .001 and .010 below the deck surface. If it's higher than that, there's a .050 recessed area where it sits on the stock bolt mount. You can grind that down (or all the way from front to back for me because my mount was oval shaped instead of circular in the head). They do include four shims, .020 IIRC.

It is attached with a 6mmx12pt bolt, but the gasket and head help stabilize it from rocking. I'm not personally familiar with using rods to hold up lifters, but I don't know whether this will allow that method to avoid removing heads oto to change cams.

Cost is $425. The vendor is not a sponsor, but I'm not aware of any sponsors that carry a similar product.

3.4camaro

iTrader: (1)

I've never even heard of what you just posted, but it looks badass. Go ahead and post the site. I'm interested.