hannes_slanec

Hello guys, for my 68 Impala convertible SS427 clone I build up a Vortec 496.
I plan to go with Raylar heads (nothing else available), a radical cam for mid and high-range performance (I think that engine got already enough low end punch) and some forged pistons.

Further I am interested in a MILD twin turbocharger-system as it would improve the mid and high-range performance to the time the car got already grip.

I think for a mild version I don´t need super high-psi turbos and also I have to look for my budget.
What mild turbo could you recommend.
I wrote in a thread here at LS1.com that 6-8psi would already be enough for a BBC to achieve brute hp-gains and it shall keep streetable!

Also very appreciated would be any technical advise to that project as:

How much turbo boost would you recommed (how I said before, mild)

How much primary diameter

How much inlet diameter

How much outlet diameter

How much tailpipe diameter

What kind or turbo and what brand/type

What is matching cam for that application? (every cam-spec. is available for the new firing order as custom order)

What is to care about



With the forged pistons and the alu heads the 496 should be able to handle up to 800hp aldough less than that is also very
ok. With the new pistons I plan to go +30 up what would bring 503cid if I am right informed (please tell me if wrong)

Also wrote in the forum that it is a lot of hassle with the com but the thread was from 2002. Are there better knowledge in between?


Like always, every help is wanted and appreciated

Look forward to the answer


Hannes

mrdragster1970

.

No expert on turbo's, but if you're not going for mega power, 1500-2000 HP. Why in the heck do you need twins. You mention your budget, right there saves ton's of $$ in material & labor costs. Just a thought, good luck.

.

stainless40cal

I am also interested in a set up for a bbc i would like to know more also who is building these? With out charging an arm and a leg that is

xpndbl3

iTrader: (23)

s&s chassis in schiller park has built some awesome turbo setups. guys name is neil...pronounced NILE like the river.

hannes_slanec

The point is, my engine will produce around 500+hp through the huge torque it will cause traction problems with the 20"wheels.
Whit the turbos I try to get some mid and upper range-punch and to raise the torque band and torque peak to have performance to that time when I tire slippage is behind me and tires already got grip.

I have heard I also could use small turbos (a T3 .63 exhaust housing), which are cheap to get, as they would spool just faster on a larger engine. Than I have heard that the small one would have the performance in the lower range but for the upper range the does not have the needed volume.

What is the truth?

I would love to use small turbos as the size of my engine compartment is limited as well as my budget.


Please members, tell me you opinions.

Wnts2Go10O

iTrader: (12)

t3 is WAY too small. u need something like a twin t70 for that motor. that is if u want twins thatll be the leat bit efficient.

BigJls1

ditto. T3 turbine will choke your motor like having a 1" exhaust.

T70's are a great choice (not the ebay super t70 ) .

hannes_slanec

I know with that displacement I could run real huge turbos but I dont need 2000 hp!
Only a further punch in the mid and upper-rpm range.
American engines are quite unlimited, I even can pull out 650hp out of a Vortec 4800 (seen in the street trucks magazine) but the engine character and the costs are always the key. I get 500hp much cheaper out of a Vortc 8100 than from a Vortec 4800 and I have more torque with the big block. That´s just my view of the things, thats why I use smaller turbos aldough I could use huge ones, 700hp with punch in the mid range is enough and I think 2 not that big ones will get it handled.

I have to offers already from two different shops, please members, add your comment:

Offer #1: (The text includes answers of quesitons I asked, so dont be wonder...)


Hi:

If the turbos are redone and balanced, they aren't used anymore, now they're remanufactured. It'll be a little hard to find a pair of remanufactured turbos for less than $1000, but not impossible. You're right, your turbos shouldn't be too small, or you'll have all the power at low rpm, and at high rpm, the turbos would've lost their efficiency. I believe that the smallest turbo that you should get would be a 54 trim or 57 trim with a stage 3 or 5 wheel, they produce from 450hp to 550hp, so with a twin turbo setup you could produce from 800hp to 1000hp if you should want to. We can supply you with a remanufactured twin turbo setup of 2 54 trim or 57 trim turbos (stage 3 or 5, your choice) with a 6 month warranty on them, but we can't go lower than $1400 (insured shipping included) to your destination (we believe it's Austria, please correct us if we're wrong). If you're interested, or have any more questions, please let us know. Thanks for your time and interest, we really appreciate it.

Kind Regards,
turbos4sale


Offer #2 (The text includes answers of quesitons I asked, so dont be wonder...)


Hannes,

We are a full blown turbo manufacturing facility. We don't sell used
turbos!!! And on a nice project such as yours , we don't recommend trying
used turbos without a prior preventive rebuild!

The 2 proposed turbos are not just used turbos that have been "rebuilt".
They are actually NEW turbos, Assembled and balanced by our tehnicians as
per GARRETT requirements, from a combination of NEW and reman components,
with specifications that are tailor made for YOUR project. So they're not
one size fits all turbos that have simply been repaired. They're your vortek
496 bbc turbos, and if you're not happy with their behavior, we can modify
them for cheap!
All the other proposed accessories in option #2 are BRAND NEW.

Our recommendation as far as the best cam shafts for boosting on a daily
driven car is to STICK WITH THE STOCK ONES!!! You no longer need agressive
cams now because you have boost. Don't worry, air will go in! under
pressure! don'T get me wrong, performance cams, TB's and intakes are still a
good thing, but no longer a condition for horsepower being made!

GARRETT T04B V trim .60 a/r / P trim 1.15 A/R twin scroll -ONE YEAR
warranty.

#1..........Just the 2 turbos: 1000$

#2..........the 2 turbos,
2 wastegate kits (new),
1 oil kit (new),
2 V clamp kit (new),
pre-welded to turbines
------------------------------------
1750$


Okey, where are the turbo pro´s.
Let me here your opinion, are the offers ok and are the prices fair, are the products are ok for my application (remember, I dont need everything possible, my crank would not handle 1000 or more hp)


Thanks and best regards

camarols1

iTrader: (17)

Any turbos smaller than 70mm are going to making boost right off idle.
There is no way you will hook 20" wheels with quick spooling small (57mm) turbos.
If you are set on the 20" wheels, try to find a deal on some bigger 70+mm units with
a .86 or larger exhaust ratio to slow the power until upper rpm's like you mentioned.
You will just have to keep the boost set low to limit the ultimate power output.

hannes_slanec

Thanks for the answers so far!

LS1Camaro, I think you absolutely saw the point.
I need some more punch when the 20/22´s hooked already up.

To make it easier for all of us I decided to buy another short block that is quit unlimited:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...3DR2%26fvi%3D1



I plan to run it with hydro roller cam setup and a Vortec 7400 EFI system.
Also have bought a set of crane stud girdles yesterday to really come closer to the save side.

The Raylar aluminum heads and rotating assembly would have been twice as much and the block still would not been balanced and blueprinted.

What do you say to that option, I know Cat Enterprises is on of the more beneficial companies but I have been told by my friends that it is ok to buy it, after all it is also 4340 forged steel
and the seller promised me that that rotating assembly will hold until 1200hp and 7500rpm.
Now I can use much bigger turbos without to fear that I blow of my engine.

Now some now questions:

If you read the description that engine will make 12,00:1 with closed chamber heads and 10,00:1 with open chamber heads.

I want to drive 95 octane and so the compression ratio will be to high for turbos.
Now I also ask, like I read in another thread here, if I get it done with a thicker head gasket.

I dont want to come toooo low with the compression as I dont want to loose my nice low end torque which would also cause more fuel consumption in the daily stop and go traffic. I think about relaxed 9,0-9,3:1 compression and only a mild boost to give an additional punch in the mid and high range, like we said already, when my tire slipage is already over and I have traction again.

Is it done with a thicker gasket and a lower boost pressure and what pressure would you recommend?

Any camshaft recommendation for a BBC stroker with:

Twinturbos

EFI

which only got low boost preasure

high torque

and which shall not need unnecessary much gasoline (I know it will not take less but evan by a big displacement engine there is a window from/until and I would prefer to be on the lowest possible point with that setup)

If you have a recommendation please state all specs I need for an order as I am not a cam specialist. I am advised and supported by a friend and dragracer but he dont want to believe that a EFI engine never got that radical cams as a carb engine (at least I was told so at www.raylarengine.com, I was in contact with them when I was searching for a cam for my first engine for that project).

Any help highly appreciated

Hannes

JUICED96Z

iTrader: (2)

First of all you are kinda rushing into this.

Second turbo motors and budgets don't work to well together.

If you ask me the shortblock you bought I would not trust on any kind of high boost. A local machine/engine shop that does nothing but big power stuff said CAT is junk. I have never heard of a piston company called probe and would not trust them on high boost.

Third, if you go with a open chamber head they mentioned you will have a 10.1 compression ratio. Most turbo cars have an 8.1 unless they are running race gas all the time. That motor is more of a N/A or Nitrous motor if you ask me.

I have a 468 BBC in my car that was built in the 80's, I know its making deep into the 500hp range on the motor alone no including the 300hp of nitrous. On a smaller shot it traps at 136mph in the qiarter, has insaine power on the motor from idle all the way to 7,000RPM. It has OUT OF THE BOX GM aluminum C port heads off a truck and an out of the box Holley strip dominator intake. I bet the long block cost what you short block cost you.

In a few years I am going to start building a chassis drag car that will have a 5XX twin turbo BBC. Turbos will be NO SMALLER then T-76's from what I can tell but I am shooting for 6's in the quarter.

20 inch wheels and power don't mix, even with 500hp and not making power till the mid range it will not do anything but spin. I have at least a 3800 stall in my car, car starts to move from a stop at 1,200 rpm. The second you punch it the stall gets you to 7,000RPM in a matter of two seconds or less.

Turbo cars that do not make power untill the mid range are not fun to drive on the street. Build it to have power all over and put some smaller wheels and stickes on it and you will be much happier.

You can put crazy cams in a EFI car or carb car, mine is carbed and so big that I don't have power brakes or anything that nees vacum.

But in all honesty I don't trust that short block you bought and two turbos for $1,000 sounds like cheaply made turbos.
Mine will cost about $2,000 EACH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't forget what I said about the compression ratio, you will be stuck with LOOOWWWWWW boost unless you only plan to run race gas.

hannes_slanec

What is what you have?

A 468cid crate engine? Never heard about. 468 sounds like a overbored engine to me, why is a engine out of the box already overbored.
You have bought your engine more that 20years ago, how will you compare our two engines. You have paid 3300 for a complete long block with alu heads and intake?
I dont know what you are talking about but still in the 90´s you have paid around 3000$ for alu heads.
Beside you stated out of the box first, than alu heads off of a truck, decide. Also I have never heard from a truck that have alu heads stock and even if, how good could they are for a performance engine.
You cannot put my engine down as there is a lot of work in that short block and nobody until now said I have paid too much.
Maybe Cat and Probe are not the best parts but the crank is still 4340 forged steel as well as the H-beam rods.
I was looking before what you pay for 540 short blocks and the started by 7500$ with out forged internals.

What is so special in your engine, looks very common to me, inside my short block everything is new and after all it is 540 not only a little overbored 454.

You are one of that guys who believes every company makes there own parts, open your eyes, there probably 2 or 3 companies making cranks worldwide and all brands order there products from them. Nobody knows that almost 90% of all consumer electronics is produced from one company including X-Box and PS3, and so it is everywhere.

The engine is build by someone who got experience since years so for me the deal was not that bad.
In Austria, where I live, I would have paid that money only for an old fucked up long block without any goodies. Balancing additional 700up $ and they never have that experience.

Why should I not trust in my short block, your 500HP (is not thaaaat much) can be handled by a stock engine (even from a 2 bolt main), so why do you think your 80´s made engine is the best from the best.
My friend is running a 6-71 Dyers blower on a stock 350 SBC and TH350 71 Chevelle, only some port work and so. Only 4000$ aire in the whole car including rear end, wheels, blower, ignition and all that stuff and that car runs 0-60miles in around 4,8sec, not bad for my taste (measured by a Vericom G-Force measure-tool)

I read a lot about low budget racing and I saw what they use.

I am not the first person who want to drive its car with 20´s and the turbos are used and rebuild and not no name at all, or do you also want to tell me Garrett is junk?

My budget is not that small but I have to buy other parts too. I have paid 1000$ only for my SS427 fender gills but you will tell me again I have been robbed. Just ask at www.impalass427.com, people paid up to 2300 for fender gills and 7000 for a SS427 domed hood.
So I am not impressed by your 2000$ turbos.


Hannes

DeltaT

iTrader: (5)

I am in agreement with this. You need to work with a company experienced in building short blocks for forced induction use. Instead of trying to identify everything wrong with what he said, why not focus on all the stuff he got right?

Try Chuck at www.ohiocranks.com for a solid deal.

Jim

raceme@you'dlose.com

To the OP. Cool down man. Have you ever stopped to think that maybe the machine shops over there aren't as informed as the ones over here and may just be judging the metal the crank is made out of not the quality of the workmanship. You asked for advice and some guys that have built big cube motors have posted thier opinions. A 468 is a bored 454 that is correct but why not use it if thats what you have, fill it with quality parts and it will last as long if not longer than the new stuff. BTW my opinion is that you need to do a lot more research before you start throwing money at something especially a big inch turbo motor. Turbos and budget are normally not spoken in the same sentence and if you want it to be durable then budget should be the last concern. Just my .02.

hannes_slanec

If you look at the link you will see that the engine is from the USA and how I said, I am informed what 540cid engines cost in the States without forged internals.

You are too horny to goof on my parts to read what I wrote, did not I write that the machine-shops in Austria would not have the experience on doing that and what I would have paid for an engine over here???
So how do come to the idea that the engine is bought in Austria, would the text be in english and would be written: Ships to United States???

My friend got a Eagle stroker kit what is also known as economy-price part and he abused it
a lot without having issues.

You are right, I did ask for advice but I cant remember to ask if you like the choice of my
engine and to estimate the worth!!!

My question was regarding the change of the gasket and how deep I would come down with the compression. If you have no answer to that question please dont communicate to me, thanks.

I dont think that I go low-budget, would should not forget that I have to ship it to Austria and that I have to pay 22% tax and Euro are a more expensive that Dollar, I will pay 700$ only tax and only for the short block + I am not intend to go toooo low with the compression ratio as I dont want to loose the torque in the low rpm what is importand in the usual stop and go traffic. You americans always forget that you complain about the fuel prices but in Austria we pay 1,95per liter!!!!!

So the economy ist also a point. I build a car that is good for different categorys.
That is the reason why I only want to go with a small boost and dont go too low with the compression, is the same what the guy who started this thread stated but it seems you all dont read but only are interested to lift your ego: My stuff is much better than yours, ne ne ne ne (remebers me on Bart Simpson).

I have stud girdles by crane, will buy a roller cam setup with roller rockers also by crane and some other goodies. I wrote in book that only the nuts buy some parts in best money can buy quality and the rest is cheap as they dont know what are also importand.
If a engine shall hold balancing and blueprinting is one of the major keys. The crank and H-beam rods will hold for what I need them and again, I dont want bigger turbos for the reasons I already stated.

Again I did not say a 468 is rubbish (I am not you, to devalue other mans stuff) I just said that I have never heard from a 468 crate engine and with alu heads from a truck (for under 3300) not at all.

Again - READ BEFORE YOU WRITE

A pressure tested, sonic checked, shoot peened and magna fluxed, fully balancec, blueprinted, sqaredecked, line-honed, torque plate- bored and moly honed, sleeved, with brand new forged rotating assembly, new bearings and moly piston rings and and and 540cid 4 bolt main for 3300 is expesive?

Man please tell me where you have bought your overbored, alu-headed and best money can by-forged rotating assembled right out of the crate 468cid super drag engine and I will buy one there too but until I see that, I buy a 540cid short block for the money you pay for the stroker kit alone in another shop (forged internals and domed pistons not included).


I hope someone will answer to the actual topic, I still have the same question as the thread starter.


Thanks Hannes

raceme@you'dlose.com

Ich habe nur gesagt das sie solte a bischen lesen fur diese bau. Turbo's sind nicht billig und I habe auch nichts gegen diene teile gesagt. I habe nur gesagt veleight kennen die leute in Ostriech diese teile nicht so gute vie die leute heir. I wunche sie veile gluck. Auf Weidersehen.

Sharpe

iTrader: (7)

Marking "hannes_slanec" at the top of my list of hyper spaz freaks. Too much sugar, I think.

hannes_slanec

Not bad, german is a quite difficult language and if you combine the words the wrong way there is no meaning in the sentence but you have got in made.

Why do you try to communicate in german with me? Want you to tell me that I dont understand what you wanna tell me? I the opposite, you dont understand.
I already stated that the engine is mounted in USA, I also said the people in Austria are not familiar with american V8, so why do you come back again.

@Sharp: We dont need someone more in this thread who is only looking to go on
other members nervs. You are far up on my shut up list, if you have no opinion to the topic than......


Ok, to bring that parts quality topic to an end, here are some opinion from people about probe pistons and cat forged parts:

http://www.mustangforums.com/archive...4143023-1.html

http://www.mustangforums.com/archive...1180810-1.html

http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic...eab0a742#20521


So, many people got the opinion I did not waste my money for 100kg of trash, hope we can return to the actual question, please:

Hannes


Ps.: Surly my english is not perfect but as long as your german is not half that good as my english we better let it, ok!

raceme@you'dlose.com

A thicker gasket will lower compression but probably not enough and if it did it would be questionable under boost. Call the cam company of your choice they will grind one for you it doesn't cost much more than an off the shelf one. I wrote in German as a courtesy to you not to make fun of you. No my German isn't perfect but I would venture to say its better than your English but that doesn't matter. The point is you came on here and asked about turbos, compression and cam. Some thought that some input on your choice of short block was warranted so you don't blow it up when you slap turbos on a motor that isn't designed to handle it. There are guys that run a 300 NOS shot on a stock motor and get away with it for a while. It doesn't make it a good idea. Run your high compression, small turbo and discount race parts and hope it stays in one piece.

hannes_slanec

@raceme@you´dlose.com

Thanks for your words, that facts are helpful.

What about a octane booster to compensate the high compression? Could that work?

Thanks Hannes