Drag Racing Tech - Help!! Timing Question at the Track
Navy David SS
06-29-2003, 07:35 PM
On a stock engine (no cam or heads), and no tuning, what is normal timing at WOT at the track? How critical is max'ing out timing in dealing with 1/4 mile E.T.? I have A-tapped the SS many times. Mine has always been 22.5-23 max at WOT. Knock retard or running rich will back it off to 19. Put some good 104 in the SS and she is right back to 22.5-23. At partial trottle it will pop up to 41. Track's altitude is 1450, normal air density is at 3,000ft, summer air density is 4500-5000ft.
Is there some way to increase the timing short of tuning and/or putting in a cam? I'll be doing a complete motor over the winter but need some help this summer.
06-29-2003, 08:59 PM
Timing on these LS1s make all the difference in the world. You can get the timing up by installing ported maf ends or the HPP3. You will see a difference, but in that kind of heat make sure that you have plenty of octane and keep the hood up as often as possible to prevent heat soaking. This should help prevent the dreaded KR. Good luck to you!!!
Navy David SS
06-29-2003, 09:36 PM
I have an 85MM MAF. I think I would rather spend $550 on LS1 Edit vice $300+ for HPP3.
06-29-2003, 09:43 PM
Because timing makes all the difference, what is the best timing for WOT on most stock cars without h or c? :drive:
Navy David SS
06-29-2003, 11:07 PM
My question exactly. Also how can we adjust up the timing?
06-30-2003, 12:04 AM
Even on a stock LS1 they respond to increased timing. Don't bite my head off, I'm just offering my opinion. I was a basically stock SS once also. We managed to run 11.98s with stock internals before adding headers. The 85 MM maf is fine , but it will not increase timing, in fact it will likely fatten up your O2s which could slow you down a bit. You won't know that until you scan the car with a PCM tool like Atap. By installing MAF ends or porting a stock MAF it fools the PCM into adding additional timing based on the calculated intake air. The A4 guys should used caution since this also lowers the A4 line pressure. The HPP3 Power tuning worked for me before I was able to justify custom tuning, but I was able to benefit more as I have an A4. I sold the HPP3 for $225.00 to help suppliment my custom tuning when the time came. I would not go out and buy an HPP3 for an M6 just for timing gains. Custom tuning is the way to go epecially if you have access to a shop like MTI where you get lifetime changes free after the initial purchase.
If you can achieve 27-28 degrees timing without KR the car should be running at its peak. Remember all cars are different and different areas have higher octane fuels available. The local air temps also vary from area to area so you need to factor all of these variables before making decisions.
Currently the air here sucks(IMHO) and we are at appx +2900-3300 DA which kills our performance so if you aren't factoring in the DA for a given day you may be improving the car with changes and not even know it. Summer heat and humidity is the devil for these cars.
FWIW-David , I always make a blow out pass or two before actually scanning the car with Atap as the first few passes always have KR from carbon deposits trapped in the cylinders. An oil catch can will help prevent KR as the oil being pulled through the intake breaks down the octane content of the fuel being burned.
Make sure the car has time to cool after clearing the cylinders to ensure that the intake isn't heat soaked. A heat soaked intake will be very sensitive to KR.
These are things that I have learned through trial and error. It's not Gospel, but it works for me.
The part throttle timing (41 degree) blips mean nothing. The high DA is going to disappoint you , but if you can learn to calculate the DA at a given time you will be able to tell what the car should have ran at a given time.
Don't give up. It's all fun.
Good luck to you!!
Navy David SS
06-30-2003, 08:56 PM
Thanks for the input. I do appreciate the insights.
Basically, there is no one set timing. But more is better.
Secondly, there is no way to increase timing without custom program and a good cam.
Is this right?
Anyone else have any input.
I guess I'll just have to live with the shitty timing until winter and $$ come.
06-30-2003, 11:20 PM
If you install ported MAF ends on your stock MAF, it will increase your timing and lean the car out a bit. A lean motor will produce more power than a FAT one provided you don't over shoot. Since you have atap , you can monitor that easily. Find some one that has a ported maf or just the ends and swap for a few days. The MAF you have wil not increase the timing or lean the car out because it is calibrated. My PACE maf actually made me run richer, but I use a MAFT to lean it back out and fine tune the O2s. It's cheap HP if it works and I think it will. My car responded to ported ends in a big way , but it also affected the A4 line psi so I got the Pace unit. Good luck!!!
Keep us posted
06-30-2003, 11:48 PM
Thanks for the great post Txcamss. I have purchase LS1edit, but have not used it yet. The base line settings for timing is appreciated. :burn:
07-01-2003, 12:36 AM
i usually saw around 26-28 on the stock motor... I see the same with heads/cam now, but ive raised it up to 29-30 now.
Some of the 01-02 cars only see 22-23 at the track. They just had different programing. But your 98 should be in the 26-28 range cause thats what my stock timing table was set at. Could just be the DA/weather pulling some timing
but if for some reason your timing is set around 24ish on edit, you can fix that easy;) Good luck
Navy David SS
07-01-2003, 07:56 PM
I guess I have about everything else. Might as well bite the bullet for LS1 Edit.