View Full Version : Help! Is it wrong to refer to a C5R engine as an "LS1"


Steve1969LS1
12-31-2007, 12:48 PM
We're having a debate here at work. There's a story that says "Meanest LS1 Engine Ever". But its a C5R block and heads.. I don't feel that's an LS1. Other feel that since it's based on the LS1 that it's ok to refer to it that way.

So, what say the "experts" here on LS1tech??

bluehawk2
12-31-2007, 01:04 PM
I think when most people say ls1 they are refering to the ls motors in general. I would rather hear just ''LS'' though. Technically the c5r isn't a ls1, but we know the difference.

craz28
12-31-2007, 01:07 PM
to me if the block is not ls1 then the whole motor isnt.

ArrestMeRedZ
12-31-2007, 01:09 PM
Wow. Good question. I'll start with I don't know, but will expound.

Since the original C5R engine was derived from an LS1, it could be considered an LS1 variant. I know the GMMG 2002 ZL1s could be had with an LS6 or the C5R engine, and, at the time, I wasn't called anything different. Now, with the new Z06 Corvettes, I believe a reasonable facimile of the engine is called the LS7. I have no clue if that designition is now being applied retroactively to the older C5R engines. But now I'm subscribed to this thread, and I'll bet we find out.

MeentSS02
12-31-2007, 01:13 PM
From an overall view, I'd think the C5R has more in common with the LS7 than the LS1, but I guess I don't know enough about the history of the C5R to say anything more than that. To me, LS1 =/= C5R...no way, no how.

Steve1969LS1
12-31-2007, 01:16 PM
to me if the block is not ls1 then the whole motor isnt.

See, this is my argument.. it's BS to say "we have the fastest LS1 out there" and then find out it's a 427 C5r block. lol

It could be called the "fastest/meanest LS engine", but not an LS1.. an LS1 isn't a C5r and it's not an LS2 or LS7 either, it's an LS1.

Someones gotta keep an eye on these magazines.. lol

Steve1969LS1
12-31-2007, 01:18 PM
Wow. Good question. I'll start with I don't know, but will expound.

Since the original C5R engine was derived from an LS1, it could be considered an LS1 variant. I know the GMMG 2002 ZL1s could be had with an LS6 or the C5R engine, and, at the time, I wasn't called anything different. Now, with the new Z06 Corvettes, I believe a reasonable facimile of the engine is called the LS7. I have no clue if that designition is now being applied retroactively to the older C5R engines. But now I'm subscribed to this thread, and I'll bet we find out.

Well all the varients sprung from the same LS1 well.. but if I built an LS2 it wouldn't be right to say "look how much power I made from my LS1!!!"..

I think I will change thier story to refer to it as an LS and not LS1 (since it isn't) lol

craz28
12-31-2007, 01:20 PM
See, this is my argument.. it's BS to say "we have the fastest LS1 out there" and then find out it's a 427 C5r block. lol

It could be called the "fastest/meanest LS engine", but not an LS1.. an LS1 isn't a C5r and it's not an LS2 or LS7 either, it's an LS1.

Someones gotta keep an eye on these magazines.. lol

Agreed. Btw I saw you car "Bad Penny" in a magazine a while ago, just want to say amazing car:usa:

ArrestMeRedZ
12-31-2007, 01:25 PM
Being a devil's advocate, since the engine was developed and raced before the other LS variants were out, perhaps calling it an LS1 at the time may have been appropriate. But now we have LS6s, LS2s, LS7s, LS3s it would be more appropriate to call it an LSX or "In the family of LS engines...".
Oh hell, maybe we should just call it a Gen 3 SBC engine. Or have we gotten to Gen 4 by now? It's hard for us old folks to keep up.

AU N EGL
12-31-2007, 01:50 PM
Does it not also depend on who you are talking too? Talk to the most corvette ppl and the LS1` is the older 98-01 block. the LS6 is the new 02-04 block with better cooler chambers, better oiling galleys, plus stronger head bolt area.

But when you talk to the F-Body ppl they seem to call them all LS1 blocks.

Then you have the LS2 & LS7 plus the new LS3 blocks

The C5R block is not an LS block at all. Much different in too many ways. the C5R block and its brother the LS7.r block ( not available out side PME) are closer to the Warhawk blocks

Steve1969LS1
12-31-2007, 02:14 PM
Agreed. Btw I saw you car "Bad Penny" in a magazine a while ago, just want to say amazing car:usa:

Thanks! She's a fun car to drive.



I just redid the story to chang LS1 to LS engine..


They put a C5R into a 99 Camaro and said "it's the fastest LS1 powered car ever!!!"

Uh, no... it would need an LS1 engine to claim that title. lol.. maybe LS powered, but not LS1.

Steve1969LS1
12-31-2007, 02:16 PM
Being a devil's advocate, since the engine was developed and raced before the other LS variants were out, perhaps calling it an LS1 at the time may have been appropriate. But now we have LS6s, LS2s, LS7s, LS3s it would be more appropriate to call it an LSX or "In the family of LS engines...".
Oh hell, maybe we should just call it a Gen 3 SBC engine. Or have we gotten to Gen 4 by now? It's hard for us old folks to keep up.

Generally I say LSx to refer to all LS engines and LSX is the new big iron block.

I don't mind refering to a C5r as an LS engine since it is based on that design and one could argue that if LS1 engines were never invented then the C5r wouldn't exist.

They are on Gen IV now.. :)

bigdsz
12-31-2007, 02:42 PM
How about this, LS1 means a 346 cu in engine, LS2 364 etc?

ArrestMeRedZ
12-31-2007, 02:56 PM
Does it not also depend on who you are talking too? Talk to the most corvette ppl and the LS1` is the older 98-01 block. the LS6 is the new 02-04 block with better cooler chambers, better oiling galleys, plus stronger head bolt area.

But when you talk to the F-Body ppl they seem to call them all LS1 blocks.

Then you have the LS2 & LS7 plus the new LS3 blocks

The C5R block is not an LS block at all. Much different in too many ways. the C5R block and its brother the LS7.r block ( not available out side PME) are closer to the Warhawk blocks

Now it's getting confusing. Some 2001 and a lot of 2002 F-bodies got the LS6 block in their cars. Some/most/all of the non-Z06 'vettes in those years did also. They were still called LS1 engines by GM, since they didn't have the LS6 heads, cam, and high speed [external] balance treatment. So it's correct to call those LS6 blocks LS1 engines. In that case, calling the engine after the block wouldn't match GM's naming convention.

Steve's solution is the right one.:D

White.Lightning
12-31-2007, 04:47 PM
How about this, LS1 means a 346 cu in engine, LS2 364 etc?

This holds true for stock bore/stroke engines. You can take a 427 lsx block and make it a 454 with some machining.

I think the proper way to coin this persons claim is to say "Fastest Gen III engine out there" if the C5R is in fact derived from the LS1. If the C5R block was derived from a LS2,3, or 7 then you would say it is the "Fastest Gen IV engine out there". This becomes vague when you see Wheel to Wheel Powertrain run 6's with their LSx based motor. Wouldn't that be the "meanest LS based engine"?

From W2W's website:
"Engine- 352 inch factory iron block LS1 built by Wheel to Wheel Powertrain. Twin turbo system- designed and built by Wheel to Wheel Powertrain. Combination built to test the limits and potential of the LS1 engine platform in drag racing. Current best ET 6.86 @ 205 mph. Presently the quickest and fastest LS1 powered vehicle in the world!"

I frankly don't care, I guess its up to each person.

Have fun arguing :)
Andy

Steve1969LS1
12-31-2007, 05:02 PM
To be fair this was billed as "The Meanest NATURALLY ASPIRATED LS engine.."

Something like 950hp.. :shrug:

Anyways C5r /= LS1

Nine Ball
12-31-2007, 05:06 PM
You have it right now Steve.

C5R is "LS" or even "LSX", but it is technically not an "LS1"

Seems like "LSX" works the best in most cases, since the "X" is just a blank that encompasses them all. But, now that the LSX GM block is out, it introduces more confusion. Therefore, lets call the group LS@

ha

White.Lightning
12-31-2007, 05:07 PM
To be fair this was billed as "The Meanest NATURALLY ASPIRATED LS engine.."

Something like 950hp.. :shrug:

Anyways C5r /= LS1

Ahhhhh missed the NA part.

You have it right now Steve.

C5R is "LS" or even "LSX", but it is technically not an "LS1"

Seems like "LSX" works the best in most cases, since the "X" is just a blank that encompasses them all. But, now that the LSX GM block is out, it introduces more confusion. Therefore, lets call the group LS@

ha

Let's call a C5R an LSR??? hahaha

Andy

Steve1969LS1
12-31-2007, 05:27 PM
You have it right now Steve.

C5R is "LS" or even "LSX", but it is technically not an "LS1"

Seems like "LSX" works the best in most cases, since the "X" is just a blank that encompasses them all. But, now that the LSX GM block is out, it introduces more confusion. Therefore, lets call the group LS@

ha

That's why I use LSx for LS1, LS2, etc and LSX for the new block.. at least it helps some of the confusion.

BlackZ28629
01-01-2008, 01:32 AM
yeah...C5R =/= LS1...and whoever said that the ZL1 car came with an LS6? Who got ripped off and paid $125K for an LS6 car..thought they were all 650HP
C5R's...

ArrestMeRedZ
01-01-2008, 02:26 AM
yeah...C5R =/= LS1...and whoever said that the ZL1 car came with an LS6? Who got ripped off and paid $125K for an LS6 car..thought they were all 650HP
C5R's...

If we are talking about the GMMG 2002 ZL1, everybody associated with the project said the ZL1 came with an LS6.
ZL1 Phase 1: LS6 - approx $56k
ZL1 Phase 2: Head and cam LS6 - not sure about price - maybe $63-74k?
ZL1 Phase 3: C5R - approx $96k

Anybody who paid $125k for any 2002 ZL1 got ripped off. A lot of the people who had the Phase 1 and Phase 2 cars returned them to GMMG to be upgraded to the Phase 3 configuration.

All the ZL1s started life as B4C Special Service Coupes (police cars, basically debadged Z-28s).

ssheets
01-01-2008, 03:57 AM
Is an LT5 an LT1?

Hey Steve, long time no see. We met in Vegas Super Chevy in 02. I had a white 02 SS.

AU N EGL
01-01-2008, 09:56 AM
Now it's getting confusing. Some 2001 and a lot of 2002 F-bodies got the LS6 block in their cars. Some/most/all of the non-Z06 'vettes in those years did also. They were still called LS1 engines by GM, since they didn't have the LS6 heads, cam, and high speed [external] balance treatment. So it's correct to call those LS6 blocks LS1 engines. In that case, calling the engine after the block wouldn't match GM's naming convention.

Steve's solution is the right one.:D

Yes it is. Very confusing.

I am not sure what I would call my engine then? It started as a 2003 Corvette Coupe. So that was an LS1 engine, but it was an LS6 block, LS1 cam, heads, LS1TB but LS6 manifold. All Stock.

I changed to PP 243 castings ( LS6 heads) differnt cam, PP TPIS TB, plus a host of other stuff.

Hugger
01-01-2008, 10:58 AM
Why not just call it "Meanest GEN III Engine Ever"

rk_2000_Z/28
01-01-2008, 12:47 PM
Anymore (unless talking about my car specificaly) I just refer to all of the engines as 'LSX' to just about anyone but other knowledgable GM guys.

Steve1969LS1
01-01-2008, 02:46 PM
Is an LT5 an LT1?

Hey Steve, long time no see. We met in Vegas Super Chevy in 02. I had a white 02 SS.


How's it going? Now that I have a car done, again, maybe we will meet up at another event.

ssheets
01-01-2008, 09:54 PM
How's it going? Now that I have a car done, again, maybe we will meet up at another event.

That would be a good thing. I'd love to see the Penny:D

My LE is doing well too. Just got done with the head and cam swap and a long day of detailing.

Did you go to the unveiling? I was there, it was a blast. A great memory for sure in the land of Camaros.

Jakson
01-04-2008, 11:20 PM
That's why I use LSx for LS1, LS2, etc and LSX for the new block.. at least it helps some of the confusion.

Thats what I do as well, seems to work the best. I think its cool you can put lsxtech.com and it still works.:D