Bogart G/P request..?
01-17-2008, 08:19 AM
#1
Bogart G/P request..? I searched and couldn't find any threads so here goes.
Most of us know the Bogart 15x10 w/ 7.5" backspace fits 4th Gen Fbod's yet are reluctant to spend the $ because they're spendy...mostly due to the market being cornered by Bogart/SJM Mfg etc (no competing like for like wheel) . Are they great wheels?...Absolutely but damn if we're gonna spend all that hard earned money without feeling a lil special and get a good deal.
So as a result most ppl are opting to either wait until something cheaper of equal quality comes along or will purchase Weld's and do some grinding (which I personally am very close to doing). So Bogart loses all the potential sales and us F-Body guys feel left out in the cold.
I propose that SJM or a similar Bogart vendor step up and get some type of Group Purchase going......who's it gonna be?
PS anyone else feel the same?
Most of us know the Bogart 15x10 w/ 7.5" backspace fits 4th Gen Fbod's yet are reluctant to spend the $ because they're spendy...mostly due to the market being cornered by Bogart/SJM Mfg etc (no competing like for like wheel) . Are they great wheels?...Absolutely but damn if we're gonna spend all that hard earned money without feeling a lil special and get a good deal.
So as a result most ppl are opting to either wait until something cheaper of equal quality comes along or will purchase Weld's and do some grinding (which I personally am very close to doing). So Bogart loses all the potential sales and us F-Body guys feel left out in the cold.
I propose that SJM or a similar Bogart vendor step up and get some type of Group Purchase going......who's it gonna be?
PS anyone else feel the same?
01-18-2008, 02:12 AM
#7
No can do.
It is too difficult to set any type of GP on specialized builds such as these. We frown on GP’s with such customized pieces.
We can and do offer specialized service from us or any one of our vendors.
Service and support should not be compromised.
To the original poster, you may feel special with our wheels. They aren't in every persons budget. You'd have the lightest direct fit wheel on the market which are truely built for the application. When we state we are building the wheel for an LS1 or LT1, they ARE specific for the car. You would also be purchasing an investment whereas even used ones you'll see for sale hold their value very well. Benefits from using our wheels are worth the price as our setups are a min of ~50lbs converted static lbs lighter then others out there. The difference in price alone validates the costs...let alone the fine show-quality appearance. From an appearance standpoint, wheels make the car and is one of the most visible modification you can possibly make to the car.
It is too difficult to set any type of GP on specialized builds such as these. We frown on GP’s with such customized pieces.
We can and do offer specialized service from us or any one of our vendors.
Service and support should not be compromised.
To the original poster, you may feel special with our wheels. They aren't in every persons budget. You'd have the lightest direct fit wheel on the market which are truely built for the application. When we state we are building the wheel for an LS1 or LT1, they ARE specific for the car. You would also be purchasing an investment whereas even used ones you'll see for sale hold their value very well. Benefits from using our wheels are worth the price as our setups are a min of ~50lbs converted static lbs lighter then others out there. The difference in price alone validates the costs...let alone the fine show-quality appearance. From an appearance standpoint, wheels make the car and is one of the most visible modification you can possibly make to the car.
Last edited by SJM Manufacturing Inc; 01-18-2008 at 02:20 AM.
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01-18-2008, 08:13 AM
#8
No can do.
It is too difficult to set any type of GP on specialized builds such as these. We frown on GP’s with such customized pieces.
We can and do offer specialized service from us or any one of our vendors.
Service and support should not be compromised.
To the original poster, you may feel special with our wheels. They aren't in every persons budget. You'd have the lightest direct fit wheel on the market which are truely built for the application. When we state we are building the wheel for an LS1 or LT1, they ARE specific for the car. You would also be purchasing an investment whereas even used ones you'll see for sale hold their value very well. Benefits from using our wheels are worth the price as our setups are a min of ~50lbs converted static lbs lighter then others out there. The difference in price alone validates the costs...let alone the fine show-quality appearance. From an appearance standpoint, wheels make the car and is one of the most visible modification you can possibly make to the car.
It is too difficult to set any type of GP on specialized builds such as these. We frown on GP’s with such customized pieces.
We can and do offer specialized service from us or any one of our vendors.
Service and support should not be compromised.
To the original poster, you may feel special with our wheels. They aren't in every persons budget. You'd have the lightest direct fit wheel on the market which are truely built for the application. When we state we are building the wheel for an LS1 or LT1, they ARE specific for the car. You would also be purchasing an investment whereas even used ones you'll see for sale hold their value very well. Benefits from using our wheels are worth the price as our setups are a min of ~50lbs converted static lbs lighter then others out there. The difference in price alone validates the costs...let alone the fine show-quality appearance. From an appearance standpoint, wheels make the car and is one of the most visible modification you can possibly make to the car.
Unfortunatley I've never viewed my car as an investment (it's quite the opposite) so I'd never consider the resale value of any go-fast part or appearance mod.
Some may disagree but in regard to static weight, it just doesn't hold THAT much water...check out Hot Rod's archives regarding their extensive research comparing the effect of static weight on various sets of rims and overall reduction of ET in 1/4 mile. In the end they concluded the overall gain was nominal but the look of big and littles was cool.
So I guess I'll settle on the Weld's. In the end I'll still save some weight, save some money, make my car look cool and burn a few calories grinding some calipers.
01-18-2008, 11:06 AM
#10
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I think alot of people would be. It would be great to not have to fork over an arm and leg for 4 wheels. Nonetheless, GP's or not they still sell so I guess it really doesn't matter what the public wants. Bogarts are awesome looking wheels, I'm so sick of seeing Welds on every drag car in America. So GP's or not, one day I hope to be able to buy a set.
01-18-2008, 12:01 PM
#11
Cdubbzz,
There's about a 30% weight difference between our wheels and weld-prostars. Completely different market wheel...Lets look at high-end weld alumastar wheels for a second. They are actually more expensive then our wheels (and not custom designed for your car either). They would have similar benefits as our wheels...except they are not built to fit your car. I’m not familiar with the article you referred to…it would go against physics. An oversimplification…how would one compare differences between a steel flywheel and aluminum flywheel, inertial differences?
I like to compare welds high-ended products with their economy lines so that folks understand all wheels are not built equal…there are measureable differences between wheels. The weld alumastar: there's a night and day difference in quality, design and benefits over their economy weld prostar line. . Unfortunately, if you're looking for economy, then the prostars may fit your requirements more. If you're looking for quality, ease of fitment and other benefits ours would be your best choice.
In my opinion, a client may save a few hundred on economy wheels; they lose the benefits of a lighter higher quality direct fit wheel as our Bogart’s. Here’s a typical scenario…customer purchases weld prostars as their budget only allows so. Then they purchase a k-member to save 30lbs of additional weight. In the end, that customer did not save as much weight AND spent more time trying to fit their wheel AND more money verses purchasing our wheels alone. They also left their car looking not near the same from an esthetic standpoint.
Our wheels are not the next best thing to apple pie…There are other options available. Our wheels are the lightest direct fit wheel on the market in which we work specifically to fit them on each car. They are also show-quality using high-quality materials and USA made. There are measureable differences between our products and others.
Against belief, there is actually very little markup with our Bogart products. Due to the nature of design and differences between for our wheels, it would not be feasable to create a GP and be productive for each persons needs.
I do wish you luck in your endeavors.
01-18-2008, 06:18 PM
#13
If the wheels are even made...I highly doubt they will directly fit nor will they retain the benefits of a truly lightweight design. Those wheels as well as other economy wheels are not the same target customers our wheels are intended for. I also do not feel they will offer the backspaces required for the typical F-body.
I'd suggest if someone wants an economy wheel, choose a weld prostar, use spacers and grind and add long studs. Summit also has a line of wheels which are similar which you can currently purchase.
One will not have the benefits of what a lightweight wheel has to offer...as I've described above. I've made comparisons to even high-ended welds to give an unbiased answer. Doing a comparison and doing the math, there are advantages that are seen and measurable.
If you want a Ferrari, but you consider a Fiero, then you really can't compare the two apples to apples...both look similar, just as all wheels are round...but that is about as far as it goes.
Realistically, our wheels are really not for everyone, if a budget wheel is all that someone wants and really doesn't care about all the benefits we have to offer, there are plenty of current sources to choose from. Weld's economies, summit/jegs or centerline wheels.
I hope that everyone understands and appreciates what we offer the LS1 and LT1 community.
I'd suggest if someone wants an economy wheel, choose a weld prostar, use spacers and grind and add long studs. Summit also has a line of wheels which are similar which you can currently purchase.
One will not have the benefits of what a lightweight wheel has to offer...as I've described above. I've made comparisons to even high-ended welds to give an unbiased answer. Doing a comparison and doing the math, there are advantages that are seen and measurable.
If you want a Ferrari, but you consider a Fiero, then you really can't compare the two apples to apples...both look similar, just as all wheels are round...but that is about as far as it goes.
Realistically, our wheels are really not for everyone, if a budget wheel is all that someone wants and really doesn't care about all the benefits we have to offer, there are plenty of current sources to choose from. Weld's economies, summit/jegs or centerline wheels.
I hope that everyone understands and appreciates what we offer the LS1 and LT1 community.
01-18-2008, 10:40 PM
#14
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^ Just one question I would like answered honestly. All the bullshit about Bogarts breaking and cracking and this and that.How often have you honestly experienced this. Even after people have been using the D10's and what not on the street. I've never heard of Welds ever breaking and guys run these things all the time everywhere and anywhere. This is the only rumor or concern I have about Bogarts other than that once I have the money one day I will be purchasing a set.
01-18-2008, 11:38 PM
#15
Ok, long answer, don’t fall asleep. I’ll always be as honest as possible. What you're hearing is probably not BS from the majority of people, I'm sure firmly believe in their minds they have "heard" of problems...I can state with assurance, most of them are rumors or comments that a friend of a friend told their friend etc...Maybe some of them being competing vendors may play that card though...why do I know this? It is because I hear/see concerns that our clients have. We always back our customers up to the best of our ability.
People do not seem to realize, we've got a variety of style wheels for different applications. For example, take our fly series wheels...they are meant for <2800lb vehicles...I won't even sell them to an F-body customer unless they have some real serious weight loss setups... So when you see someone purchase used or second hand wheels...and they break them, now you have that person posting a nasty picture stating their wheels broke. Then someone else reads that post, they mention...that they saw something, then someone else states that a friend of a friend said they are break all the time. Same goes with other series...they are built for all different scenarios...even though they may look similar...different shell thickness's are used, different materials etc etc. I know of at least 5 LS1/LT1 combos’ that are using them…I’m surprised they have lasted as long as they have used them. I see customers using old Monocoques (Bogart P2 wheels…same product different logo) STILL using them when the last time they were made was maybe 10 years ago, why are they still around?
Sometimes, it is not the wheel that just failed, but the combination of incorrect tires used on a wheel that it was not intended for…high PSI’s etc etc…even down to the age of the wheel. Material fatigue is always a concern…the older a product is, the more it is used, the higher likelihood of stress failures.
I've had a few non-participating vendors that were third party suggesting to customers to use specific components or combination of setups that were just completely incorrect from a variety of vehicle types...setup an incorrect design for a particular car combo...of course things won’t last. Sometimes it is not known what the wheel design is used for on the car…they are just built to specs called in.
Let’s look at our P1 LS1/LT1 specific designs…I find it very difficult to swallow when I hear about all these damages with F-bodies using P1 wheels designed for the F-body...I know firsthand, what damages occur and problems that arise. I believe now from since our inception of ~12 years of history for the LT1/LS1 community, offhand, I've seen less than 20 people who have needed wheels repaired from EVERY F-body design that I've been part of...that would be crashes, mistakes, abuse etc…if you want to count those very few folks out of thousands built over the 12 year span problematic...then by all means do so. Of course, no one likes damages, nor do we, but it is a fact of life to see components break. I'm sure you can count rather easily other manufactures pieces that are often quite a bit more problematic.
So are our pieces bulletproof? Of course not, nothing lasts forever. There ARE always two sides to a story though…typically the only side you hear is the customer did nothing wrong. If you continually abuse a product past its intended purpose, it can greatly diminish the life of the components. I won't suggest to customers that they should use our Bogart’s on the street/highway JUST the same as NO other drag wheel manufactures setup should be used on the street/highway conditions. This is why you’ll see “FOR DRAG USE ONLY” on the other manufactures wheels. Another misnomer is SFI approval OR DOT approval…this does not warrant the use of a product for normal street/highway use. A prime example would be ET streets which are DOT legal…they have a non-highway use disclaimer. Welds high-end wheels i.e. their alumastars are SFI approved...just as some of our extremely light-weight wheels are designed…I wouldn’t use them on the street at all!
For the record, other manufactures wheels do break…I’ve seen quite a few LS1tech members have their weld prostars/draglites crack…The board owner Tony is one of them who I believe had not one prostar crack, but both front runners. Probably the worst case was one LS1tech customer who totaled his car from his calipers fail from grinding for the Prostars…there are additional concerns some are not looking at.
There was a recent post in the drag racing section regarding folks who has cracked ANY drag wheel…guess what, there were a few weld customers and a few of ours…go figure, out of the 100,000 (probably actually more) LS1tech board members, according to the rumors, I wonder why there weren’t these “tons” of Bogart customers posting of their wheels failing.
People do not seem to realize, we've got a variety of style wheels for different applications. For example, take our fly series wheels...they are meant for <2800lb vehicles...I won't even sell them to an F-body customer unless they have some real serious weight loss setups... So when you see someone purchase used or second hand wheels...and they break them, now you have that person posting a nasty picture stating their wheels broke. Then someone else reads that post, they mention...that they saw something, then someone else states that a friend of a friend said they are break all the time. Same goes with other series...they are built for all different scenarios...even though they may look similar...different shell thickness's are used, different materials etc etc. I know of at least 5 LS1/LT1 combos’ that are using them…I’m surprised they have lasted as long as they have used them. I see customers using old Monocoques (Bogart P2 wheels…same product different logo) STILL using them when the last time they were made was maybe 10 years ago, why are they still around?
Sometimes, it is not the wheel that just failed, but the combination of incorrect tires used on a wheel that it was not intended for…high PSI’s etc etc…even down to the age of the wheel. Material fatigue is always a concern…the older a product is, the more it is used, the higher likelihood of stress failures.
I've had a few non-participating vendors that were third party suggesting to customers to use specific components or combination of setups that were just completely incorrect from a variety of vehicle types...setup an incorrect design for a particular car combo...of course things won’t last. Sometimes it is not known what the wheel design is used for on the car…they are just built to specs called in.
Let’s look at our P1 LS1/LT1 specific designs…I find it very difficult to swallow when I hear about all these damages with F-bodies using P1 wheels designed for the F-body...I know firsthand, what damages occur and problems that arise. I believe now from since our inception of ~12 years of history for the LT1/LS1 community, offhand, I've seen less than 20 people who have needed wheels repaired from EVERY F-body design that I've been part of...that would be crashes, mistakes, abuse etc…if you want to count those very few folks out of thousands built over the 12 year span problematic...then by all means do so. Of course, no one likes damages, nor do we, but it is a fact of life to see components break. I'm sure you can count rather easily other manufactures pieces that are often quite a bit more problematic.
So are our pieces bulletproof? Of course not, nothing lasts forever. There ARE always two sides to a story though…typically the only side you hear is the customer did nothing wrong. If you continually abuse a product past its intended purpose, it can greatly diminish the life of the components. I won't suggest to customers that they should use our Bogart’s on the street/highway JUST the same as NO other drag wheel manufactures setup should be used on the street/highway conditions. This is why you’ll see “FOR DRAG USE ONLY” on the other manufactures wheels. Another misnomer is SFI approval OR DOT approval…this does not warrant the use of a product for normal street/highway use. A prime example would be ET streets which are DOT legal…they have a non-highway use disclaimer. Welds high-end wheels i.e. their alumastars are SFI approved...just as some of our extremely light-weight wheels are designed…I wouldn’t use them on the street at all!
For the record, other manufactures wheels do break…I’ve seen quite a few LS1tech members have their weld prostars/draglites crack…The board owner Tony is one of them who I believe had not one prostar crack, but both front runners. Probably the worst case was one LS1tech customer who totaled his car from his calipers fail from grinding for the Prostars…there are additional concerns some are not looking at.
There was a recent post in the drag racing section regarding folks who has cracked ANY drag wheel…guess what, there were a few weld customers and a few of ours…go figure, out of the 100,000 (probably actually more) LS1tech board members, according to the rumors, I wonder why there weren’t these “tons” of Bogart customers posting of their wheels failing.
01-19-2008, 12:09 PM
#19
Due to the nature of the products and each individualized setups, I do not feel it would be would be in the best interest for anyone.
01-21-2008, 09:17 AM
#20
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I am going to chime in here... wheels like Bogart and Holeshot! are in a league of their own. The reason for this is they will try to accommodate nearly any customer request. That flexibility costs money! Ever wonder why Weld or those guys won't do anything custom on drag wheels? Because they built a given number of styles in batches to leverage economies of scale. Plus when you are a one trick pony like those guys, you have lower inventory carrying costs since you just have to stock things like rims in whole inch increments for backspacing, etc...
Getting in to the infamous Greg Weld wheels, those are cast in China (not CNC machined here in the USA), so good luck getting a special order there. Also, are you guys aware of why no one races cast wheels? From a metal standpoint (without getting into a masters level discussion on metallurgy), the castings structure is just all randomly dispersed. Forgings align the metals structure, thus making for a stronger piece, often times with less weight. Ever see cast cranks or pistons in a good race motor?
People can complain all they want about costs, but this is truly an instance of "you get what you pay for!"
Getting in to the infamous Greg Weld wheels, those are cast in China (not CNC machined here in the USA), so good luck getting a special order there. Also, are you guys aware of why no one races cast wheels? From a metal standpoint (without getting into a masters level discussion on metallurgy), the castings structure is just all randomly dispersed. Forgings align the metals structure, thus making for a stronger piece, often times with less weight. Ever see cast cranks or pistons in a good race motor?
People can complain all they want about costs, but this is truly an instance of "you get what you pay for!"