Forced Induction - methanol dilemma...expert input needed

I had a custom alum meth reserve tank fabbed up to fit in a specific place on my current project and it didn't even cross my mind at the time that methanol is corrosive to alum. I have NO choice but to use the custom shaped tank so what are my options? Would a meth/water 50/50 mix make it less corrosive? What about spraying something else? I need the added benefit of octane boost so can't be just straight H2O. Would it be possible to inject C16 through the meth system instead?

I wonder if you could get the inside of the tank coated to keep it from corroding.

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Have several guys running 100% meth. P/M guys, 7-9 gallons. They just drain it before putting in trailer.
One guy had it coated when the car was built, for gas. When he switched, it ate it up & made a mess.
Use it, you will be fine. Just do the maintenence. Good luck.

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The only problem with that is for this application the tank will need to be full nearly all the time.

Well according to this the 100% water injection is just as benifitial read it and toward the bottom it explains that water acts as a detonation suppresor and slows the burn of regular fuel to act like higher octane fuels etc... Not saying you don't need any methanol just another option possibly, but definately reducing the amount like a 50/50 mix should slow some of the corrosion process I would think. Who know maybe it would speed it up do to the oxygen in the water??? GL it a good read anyways so you won't be waisting your time.
http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/a11/116+-Octane-With-Water-Injection!/article_info.html

I wonder if you could get the inside of the tank coated to keep it from corroding.

I was thinking this too...

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Sorry, I was only giving the info I actually knew. Maybe he used the wrong coating. The car was built ~5 years ago.
Maybe they have alcohol proof coating out now. Good luck, I tried.

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Well according to this the 100% water injection is just as benifitial read it and toward the bottom it explains that water acts as a detonation suppresor and slows the burn of regular fuel to act like higher octane fuels etc... Not saying you don't need any methanol just another option possibly, but definately reducing the amount like a 50/50 mix should slow some of the corrosion process I would think. Who know maybe it would speed it up do to the oxygen in the water??? GL it a good read anyways so you won't be waisting your time.
http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/a11/116+-Octane-With-Water-Injection!/article_info.html

Good read. Thanks for the link. I'm thinking 80% water and 20%rubbing alcohol (isoprop...)

http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/a11/116+-Octane-With-Water-Injection!/article_info.html
Very interesting article.

You should have it anodized.

You should have it anodized.

Ding Ding Ding, we have a winner.

Ding Ding Ding, we have a winner.

What long term effects would the meth have on anodizing?

While water will do a good job at cooling, it won't give the same results as water/meth mix would as the meth will also raise the octane level keeping you further away from detonation and able to run more timing and boost safely.

If you have an aluminum tank and want to make it so it won't corrode, I would go with the suggestion of having the insides coated somehow. I would just go with some form of plastic if able. If you want to extend the life of it without coating, use a 50/50 water/meth mix. This is the best mix to use anyways IMO. It is what I am using and have had great success with. If you talk to some people like Julio at Alky Control, they will tell you to use straight meth only. Then if you talk to Greg at Snow Performance, he will tell you to run a 50/50 mix. Arguments have been made supporting both, and both will work, but the 50/50 mix works best IMO for most applications and will be much less corrosive than running straight meth.

Yes 50/50 water/meth mix and straight meth both work, but you will get more cooling effect and a greater increase in octane from straight meth. Straight meth is more corrosive than a 50/50 mix, so unless you have a plastic tank and stainless steel hoses run a 50/50 mix.

Ultimating the most gain/benefit is with 100% Methanol.

Yes 50/50 water/meth mix and straight meth both work, but you will get more cooling effect and a greater increase in octane from straight meth. Straight meth is more corrosive than a 50/50 mix, so unless you have a plastic tank and stainless steel hoses run a 50/50 mix.

Ultimating the most gain/benefit is with 100% Methanol.

Its all debateable which is actually "best" and has been argued many times. Both will work, but to date no one has proven it most benefitial either way.

Its all debateable which is actually "best" and has been argued many times. Both will work, but to date no one has proven it most benefitial either way.

What are you missing here? Running straight meth will have a greater cooling effect AND raise the octane. Sounds like there is a clear "best" to me.

ANYTHING aluminum needs to be anodized. We ran into the on the "Black Bitch" this year. I didnt get the fuel rails re anodized after welding onto them. We had a nice time trying to clean 22 injectors. Also the polished Aeromotive fuel filters arent anodized from the factory.

What are you missing here? Running straight meth will have a greater cooling effect AND raise the octane. Sounds like there is a clear "best" to me.

I'm not going to argue with you as its already been done over this topic many times. All I can say is that its never been proven one way or another. If you have a link that directly proves that straight meth has a greater cooling affect over water, I'd like to hear it, as that I believe it has been proved other wise. The bigger argument is which is overall better as the water mix will cool it better but the straight meth will raise octane more.

Here's just one of many threads discussing this I could point out; http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/showthread.php?t=491444

Straight meth is good but if your like me, on the Power Tour this year you can't go in the gas station and buy straight meth. So I am going to try and run Washer fluid because it's readily available.

Straight meth is good but if your like me, on the Power Tour this year you can't go in the gas station and buy straight meth. So I am going to try and run Washer fluid because it's readily available.

People have done that as well and had little issues, although I reccomend just going and getting yourself some distilled water and mixing it with meth.

It depends on your setup, but I beat the living sh*t out of my Z this last year, and I only went through about 7 gallons of the mix. My 1.2 gallon tank in my car will last me for weeks of a abuse and fun. I think if you want to play it on the safe side, just fill the tank in your car and then get a 5 gallon gas tank and put it in your hatch to take with you.

If your looking for a good kit to use, check out alky control. Great people and great product.

As for fluid, we use 100% meth only. It is much safer to run 100% then to try to find the same mixture that was in the last jug. You will have more octane rating, and better cooling.

The only downside is the above, but have it anodized and there should not be an issue. Plenty of alcohol cars run a aluminum tank, but is HAS to be anodized.

Sounds like I should anodize it. Any sponsors do this? If not then who would you recommend?

do a local search in your area, should be an anodizer in your area. if not call me tomorrow and i'll give you a number to a guy down here in south florida that does it.

Darin
561.375.6277

I'm not going to argue with you as its already been done over this topic many times. All I can say is that its never been proven one way or another. If you have a link that directly proves that straight meth has a greater cooling affect over water, I'd like to hear it, as that I believe it has been proved other wise. The bigger argument is which is overall better as the water mix will cool it better but the straight meth will raise octane more.

Here's just one of many threads discussing this I could point out; http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/showthread.php?t=491444

Here is a method to prove it to yourself from the comfort of your own home.

1. Stick your finger in a glass of water. Pull it out.

2. Stick your finger in pure methanol. Pull it out.

Wall-ah! Point proven.

Here is a method to prove it to yourself from the comfort of your own home.

1. Stick your finger in a glass of water. Pull it out.

2. Stick your finger in pure methanol. Pull it out.

Wall-ah! Point proven.

Dude, I am not going to go into this with you, so stop tempting me. Straight meth works. Meth/water mix works. Lets leave it at that.

If you really want to debate this, start a new thread. I'll be glad to discuss it there with you and point out all the many links that have been done before arguing each side.

I've heard people mix water with their meth mostly for safety. The mix is less flamable.

In my experience, and i've used both straight and mixed, straight meth is better. Less bogging and lets you run crazy timing and boost. Although I ran the washer fluid (-20*) and had great results as well and considering it cost $.99 per gallon at any auto parts store it's a perfect alternative.. Either way, it works!

Dude, I am not going to go into this with you, so stop tempting me. Straight meth works. Meth/water mix works. Lets leave it at that.

If you really want to debate this, start a new thread. I'll be glad to discuss it there with you and point out all the many links that have been done before arguing each side.

Did you do my home proof test? Just checking.

Did you do my home proof test? Just checking.There is no question that Methanol is colder to the touch than water, but that doesn't prove that methanol is more detonation prevention than water.

There is no question that Methanol is colder to the touch than water, but that doesn't prove that methanol is more detonation prevention than water.

Meth raises the octane.....water does not. They both cool the charge (preventing detonation), but Meth cools more (finger test).

I run alky spray in two vehicle's, I have tried a 50 50 mix with water and it run like Sh*t, Like one said you can run a long time on a gallon of alky, One ask if you could spray hi-octane gas, That is a Big NO, Pumps set up to spray alky and you spray gas even E85 and your pump will die

Sounds like I should anodize it. Any sponsors do this? If not then who would you recommend?


you can do this yourself EASILY at home.

google how to anodize.

its so simple. did it back in the r/c car days.

I run alky spray in two vehicle's, I have tried a 50 50 mix with water and it run like Sh*t, Like one said you can run a long time on a gallon of alky, One ask if you could spray hi-octane gas, That is a Big NO, Pumps set up to spray alky and you spray gas even E85 and your pump will die

This is a good example of how it effects different setups different ways. As said before the water will help cool, but the straight meth will increase the octane. If you have a setup that the IAT's already are cool from say an intercooler, but you just want to add more timing and boost, then straight meth will be more benefitial. If you are like me though, where my IAT's are getting on the warm side, the meth/water mix helps cool and increases the octane level making it most benefitial to me.

The meth will still cool, but the water will do a better job of it. Either way, methanol injection is a friggin awesome solution to running race gas.

ANYTHING aluminum needs to be anodized. We ran into the on the "Black Bitch" this year. I didnt get the fuel rails re anodized after welding onto them. We had a nice time trying to clean 22 injectors. Also the polished Aeromotive fuel filters arent anodized from the factory.

Uggh. I have one of the -12in/out polished filters and I thought they were clear anodized. I guess I gotta get it anodized somewhere.

Did you do my home proof test? Just checking.

Light your finger on fire, then pour water on it. Let it dry, light it again, now pour methanol on it.

What are your results for best cooling effect?

Light your finger on fire, then pour water on it. Let it dry, light it again, now pour methanol on it.

What are your results for best cooling effect?
OK. I did the test and the meth felt colder.

hahahaha :engarde:

OK. I did the test and the meth felt colder.

hahahaha :engarde:

I think if you really did the test it would be the other way around, but I think it doesn't really matter anyways as we will probably have to agree to disagree on this one.

When you inject water/alcohol the alcohol portion provides instant cooling (as it quickly evaporates), added fuel, increased octane (when used with pump gas) and burns as part of the combustion process while reducing combustion temperatures and EGT‘s. It should be noted that alcohol has a much lower latent heat of vaporization then water therefore it begins to evaporate instantly when injected into a hot air charge.

Water on the other hand has a very high latent heat of vaporization.

Definition of Latent Heat Of Vaporization: “latent heat” is the amount of energy in the form of heat released or absorbed by a substance during a change of phase. (i.e. solid, liquid, or gas), - also called a phase transition.

The energy (heat) required to turn water into a steam (to begin evaporating) is substantially higher then that of alcohol. The water portion reacts a significantly slower as it needs a substantial amount more of heat to begin evaporating. When atomized properly water alone works well at cooling air charge temperatures. However, when compared to alcohol, testing has shown water does not have as great of a cooling effect on the air charge temperatures as does alcohol. It’s when the water reaches the combustion chamber and the temperatures within that it begins to turn to steam. This steam slows down and stabilizes the combustion process (acting as an anti-detonate/effective octane booster) while also lowering combustion chamber temperatures. It is also the water which cools and protects the tops of the pistons (these engines don’t have oil squirters under the pistons to cool them as do OEM engines designed for turbo's etc.). The water portion also cools and lowers EGT's.

Together, water alcohol injection cools the intake air charge temperatures (between 50-200+ degree‘s depending on how hot the air charge temperatures are), reduces combustion chamber temperatures and EGT‘s (up to 200 degree‘s), thus cooling and protecting the top of the pistons (your engine has no oil squirters under the piston to cool them as do the OEM engines designed for turbo’s and superchargers), cool’s the top ring and exhaust valves

^^^Now that is some good info.^^^

Thanks for sharing

Check out hard anodizing - it only costs a bit more than regular and is a much tougher coating. It also bonds well with Teflon and a couple other options - tell them it is to prevent methanol corrosion and a good plating shop will know the best combination.

I do know that straight methanol will eat through regular anodizing on Earl's and Russell fittings in about a season, so be careful about your tank and all connections.

Jim

Whenever 100% methanol is used, it will be more harsh on things such as some plastics, rubber, and even some metals. Snow Performance won't even warrenty their methanol pumps if you use 100% meth through them.

On the other hand, I'm sure 100% meth will give you a higher octane level after its injected compared to water/meth mix.

Just use windshield wiper fluid =D

Just use windshield wiper fluid =D

Some people do, as a lot of them are almost a 50 50 water/methanol mix. However I wouldn't reccomend it, as there is more than just water and methanol in the wiper fluid, and the only way to know the exact mix between different ones, is just to mix it yourself.

Some people do, as a lot of them are almost a 50 50 water/methanol mix. However I wouldn't reccomend it, as there is more than just water and methanol in the wiper fluid, and the only way to know the exact mix between different ones, is just to mix it yourself.

I'll never have my car tuned to be that reliant on the meth that the possible variation in mix would have too much effect

What are you saying man? Having your car tuned on the meth is the whole point of it in the first place. Meth injection won't give you any benefits if your car isn't tuned with it as with it you can advance the timing, and run more boost safely. Once you are tuned on it, and you change your combo to more or less meth in the mix, it also will change the octane/cooling effect which would in turn could lead to detonation.

Basically you need to run the consistant meth/water mix once it is tuned otherwise you will have problems. And if your not going to have a it tuned with the meth, you won't gain anything anything at all, in fact your car will probably run like crap as it will be extremly rich.

I'll never have my car tuned to be that reliant on the meth that the possible variation in mix would have too much effect

You can have it anodized,Gel coated,rubber coated etc.....There are alot of options....
You can have someone who makes custom fiberglass speaker boxes/interiors make an insert or a whole new unit/.....But much easier to have it anodized....

I'll never have my car tuned to be that reliant on the meth that the possible variation in mix would have too much effect

good point. i've used straight meth and also winsheildwasher fluid (-20*). The temp it is resistant to dictates how much meth is in it. So using the same stuff every time will help. Tuning to the absolute max will require mixing it yourself but on a typical street car we usually tend to tune for safety so if there is variance in the mixture you'll still be safe. I tuned my car for washer fluid then when i switched to straight meth i left it alone. That is my cusion.