Just an observation.
03-24-2008, 09:20 AM
#1
Just an observation. I have noticed several people here lately say that a Mustang Dyno is a more "true" reading because it loads the wheels relative to the cars weight.
Bullshit.
How much a car weighs has absolutely nothing to do with how much HP the engine makes. Nothing, nada, zilch.
An engine makes the same hp whether it is in a tonka truck or a peterbuilt.
I won't argue that it may be a better tuning tool and whatever else but being a more accurate reprensentation of hp because of it loading the wheels to account for weight is just completely wrong.
Bullshit.
How much a car weighs has absolutely nothing to do with how much HP the engine makes. Nothing, nada, zilch.
An engine makes the same hp whether it is in a tonka truck or a peterbuilt.
I won't argue that it may be a better tuning tool and whatever else but being a more accurate reprensentation of hp because of it loading the wheels to account for weight is just completely wrong.
Last edited by Stang's Bane; 03-24-2008 at 11:10 AM.
03-24-2008, 11:02 AM
#3
yep..... the funny thing is only about 10% of the people on here or anywhere for that matter know what the hell is going on with cars and mechanical things...... people are so fast to say that something cant happen, or they read something somewhere that says that is impossible..... those people never have even touched the product they are talking about but just troll websites reading info...... a dyno is a dyno IMO and they are all gonna read a little different from each other but saying that one dyno is not as good as another is BS cause they are all made to do different things to a car as you listed earlier! jake
03-24-2008, 11:09 AM
#4
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yep..... the funny thing is only about 10% of the people on here or anywhere for that matter know what the hell is going on with cars and mechanical things...... people are so fast to say that something cant happen, or they read something somewhere that says that is impossible..... those people never have even touched the product they are talking about but just troll websites reading info...... a dyno is a dyno IMO and they are all gonna read a little different from each other but saying that one dyno is not as good as another is BS cause they are all made to do different things to a car as you listed earlier! jake
You are definitely another intelligent person and not part of the herd. I have the same thoughts and wonder who has really ever built anything on here some times.
03-24-2008, 11:24 AM
#5
well it just gets me fired up to hear the guys on here say something cant happen just cause it dont make sence to them or their car dont do it...... i have been on here a few weeks and have already had like 5 people say there is no way my car ran 90+mph with LTs and catback..... im like man, im a grown *** guy here! i aint got no reason to lie to you guys....im just here to talk cars with other GM fans....hopefully these guys can take a look at my arsenal in my garage and see im not exactly a bullshitter or just talk jive..... i think there are alot of young guy son here or maybe even older ones who really aint been doing this stuff a long time and i can understand cause i have been there......in 1995 but still, let us guys show you how to go fast and what not to buy and what to buy and dont go against it..... thats how i learned what im doing by listening to others who have done it first and perfected it! RULE#1 FOR NEWBIES...... never say something cant be done!
03-24-2008, 11:46 AM
#6
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well it just gets me fired up to hear the guys on here say something cant happen just cause it dont make sence to them or their car dont do it...... i have been on here a few weeks and have already had like 5 people say there is no way my car ran 90+mph with LTs and catback..... im like man, im a grown *** guy here! i aint got no reason to lie to you guys....im just here to talk cars with other GM fans....hopefully these guys can take a look at my arsenal in my garage and see im not exactly a bullshitter or just talk jive..... i think there are alot of young guy son here or maybe even older ones who really aint been doing this stuff a long time and i can understand cause i have been there......in 1995 but still, let us guys show you how to go fast and what not to buy and what to buy and dont go against it..... thats how i learned what im doing by listening to others who have done it first and perfected it! RULE#1 FOR NEWBIES...... never say something cant be done!
03-24-2008, 11:49 AM
#7
thats bull because weight makes a world of difference in HP!!!!!
ok im just messing with ya hahaha.
Ya know it hard to say even then that a mustang dyno is a better tuning tool than a dyno jet. My reasoning is that they both will show in the increases and decreases in hp when you are tuning. Some just read a little more than others. I had my car on a mustang dyno and it made 320 rwhp with some bolt ons. Im guessin the newbies that are making up this stuff are just bitter because their hp readings are lower than everybody elses or something or they have about as much "know how" as a rock.
ok im just messing with ya hahaha.
Ya know it hard to say even then that a mustang dyno is a better tuning tool than a dyno jet. My reasoning is that they both will show in the increases and decreases in hp when you are tuning. Some just read a little more than others. I had my car on a mustang dyno and it made 320 rwhp with some bolt ons. Im guessin the newbies that are making up this stuff are just bitter because their hp readings are lower than everybody elses or something or they have about as much "know how" as a rock.
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03-24-2008, 12:34 PM
#8
Altering the dyno load to accomodate vehicle weight will change the slope of your power and torque curves even when it won't change the peak numbers, so I can see some additional tuning value there in terms of being closer in tune to what the car will actually perform like on the street.
I know it's common for a purely Dynojet-tuned car to run rich on the street. Is that the same for a Mustang-tuned setup?
Jim
I know it's common for a purely Dynojet-tuned car to run rich on the street. Is that the same for a Mustang-tuned setup?
Jim
03-24-2008, 12:34 PM
#9
Yea, well people are always gonna be skeptical... on the internet especially. And noone is going to take a look at your sig, see that you have a few nice rides, and automatically accept your word as gold. It is good that people are skeptical. IT promotes discussion, and allows everyone to understand at a higher level. BTW, keep your time slips and post them when someone calls BS. Proof is the best rebuttal.
03-24-2008, 06:02 PM
#11
I have noticed several people here lately say that a Mustang Dyno is a more "true" reading because it loads the wheels relative to the cars weight.
Bullshit.
How much a car weighs has absolutely nothing to do with how much HP the engine makes. Nothing, nada, zilch.
An engine makes the same hp whether it is in a tonka truck or a peterbuilt.
I won't argue that it may be a better tuning tool and whatever else but being a more accurate reprensentation of hp because of it loading the wheels to account for weight is just completely wrong.
Bullshit.
How much a car weighs has absolutely nothing to do with how much HP the engine makes. Nothing, nada, zilch.
An engine makes the same hp whether it is in a tonka truck or a peterbuilt.
I won't argue that it may be a better tuning tool and whatever else but being a more accurate reprensentation of hp because of it loading the wheels to account for weight is just completely wrong.
The power numbers that you see on a dyno computer screen are calculated. They are calculated with the acceleration of the dyno drum vs time. A lighter drum spins faster and the dyno calculates more power. Most DynoJets use a 2500lb drum, while Mustang dynos give you the ability to tailor the drums resistance to the weight of the car. A 2500lb drum will accelerate quicker than a simulated 3600lb drum will. That's the difference in power numbers. Finally, from someone who has actually had their car on both dynos nearly back to back, DynoJets read higher, the pulls are much quicker, and the engine note sounds very different.You're right, an engine makes the same power whether its in a Tonka or a Peterbuilt. Too bad you don't measure engine HP with a CHASSIS DYNO!!!!!!!!!!!
03-25-2008, 05:24 AM
#13
Mustang dynos are great for tuning because you can load them and hit cells you normally cant hit on a no load dynojet. You can also hold a car at a certain rpm or speed under varying loads.
The problem with mustangs/dyno dynamics etc is the fact that the operator enters in the correction factors. So, in the wrong hands, they can be deceiving.
Sometimes they read lower than a DJ, sometimes the same, sometimes higher. As for a tuning tool, my biggest need is consistency. The ability to put up like numbers over and over. I have not seen that in my exp with mustangs and dyno dynamics.
We did a dyno to dyno test using 3 different cars. Do a search on here and you'll find it.
The problem with mustangs/dyno dynamics etc is the fact that the operator enters in the correction factors. So, in the wrong hands, they can be deceiving.
Sometimes they read lower than a DJ, sometimes the same, sometimes higher. As for a tuning tool, my biggest need is consistency. The ability to put up like numbers over and over. I have not seen that in my exp with mustangs and dyno dynamics.
We did a dyno to dyno test using 3 different cars. Do a search on here and you'll find it.
03-25-2008, 06:02 AM
#14
The power numbers that you see on a dyno computer screen are calculated. They are calculated with the acceleration of the dyno drum vs time. A lighter drum spins faster and the dyno calculates more power. Most DynoJets use a 2500lb drum, while Mustang dynos give you the ability to tailor the drums resistance to the weight of the car. A 2500lb drum will accelerate quicker than a simulated 3600lb drum will. That's the difference in power numbers. Finally, from someone who has actually had their car on both dynos nearly back to back, DynoJets read higher, the pulls are much quicker, and the engine note sounds very different.You're right, an engine makes the same power whether its in a Tonka or a Peterbuilt. Too bad you don't measure engine HP with a CHASSIS DYNO!!!!!!!!!!!
And i want you to tell me how a vehicles weight should effect the measured HP output at the wheels.
I am very aware of how a Mustang Dyno(or any other load bearing dyno)works, and the reasons for doing so. I have no problems with that, it has its place.
I will say it again though, a vehicles curb weight has absolutely no effect on the power generated. Anything in the driveline?? For sure, it will affect the outcome. That is where the differrence in chassis dyno and engine dyno comes into play.
03-25-2008, 06:22 AM
#15
Repeat after me... Power measured at the wheels is not engine power. It is engine power minus driveline losses. Put a stock LS1 in a car with a lightweight driveline and it will make a number. Take that same exact engine and put it in a 4WD truck with a loose converter and it will make much less power. Did the engine HP change? No. But the dyno read lower. That's because it's a CHASSIS DYNO! It does not measure engine power. You want engine power? Put it on an engine dyno.
I guess you never read my first post. A vehicles weight does not change the power an engine produces. In fact, it does not change the power it produces at the wheels (driveline weight variances being equal). HOWEVER, the difference lies in the testing method, the dyno type. Changing the vehicles weight input on a Mustang dyno most certainly affects the power measurement of the dyno. That is fact. Increase the weight input and the measured power goes down. That's just the way it is. You can focus on the wrong point all you like, it won't change the facts.
Finally, I believe the Mustang dyno is a better measure for power with an honest operator. The time the car is on the Mustang dyno it accelerates and behaves like it would under real world acceleration. When my car was on the DynoJet the engine behaved like I was driving down a steep hill (or I dropped a 1000lbs from the car). The acceleration was artificial.
And i want you to tell me how a vehicles weight should effect the measured HP output at the wheels
Finally, I believe the Mustang dyno is a better measure for power with an honest operator. The time the car is on the Mustang dyno it accelerates and behaves like it would under real world acceleration. When my car was on the DynoJet the engine behaved like I was driving down a steep hill (or I dropped a 1000lbs from the car). The acceleration was artificial.
03-25-2008, 06:45 AM
#16
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Mustang dynos are great for tuning because you can load them and hit cells you normally cant hit on a no load dynojet. You can also hold a car at a certain rpm or speed under varying loads.
The problem with mustangs/dyno dynamics etc is the fact that the operator enters in the correction factors. So, in the wrong hands, they can be deceiving.
Sometimes they read lower than a DJ, sometimes the same, sometimes higher. As for a tuning tool, my biggest need is consistency. The ability to put up like numbers over and over. I have not seen that in my exp with mustangs and dyno dynamics.
We did a dyno to dyno test using 3 different cars. Do a search on here and you'll find it.
The problem with mustangs/dyno dynamics etc is the fact that the operator enters in the correction factors. So, in the wrong hands, they can be deceiving.
Sometimes they read lower than a DJ, sometimes the same, sometimes higher. As for a tuning tool, my biggest need is consistency. The ability to put up like numbers over and over. I have not seen that in my exp with mustangs and dyno dynamics.
We did a dyno to dyno test using 3 different cars. Do a search on here and you'll find it.
I am pretty sure the dyno dynamics has an automatic corretcion factor detector thing.
But yeah the loading dynos are great especually with real time tuning solutions, just load to hit your cells then real time tune to get your desired outcome.
03-25-2008, 07:03 AM
#17
Repeat after me... Power measured at the wheels is not engine power. It is engine power minus driveline losses. Put a stock LS1 in a car with a lightweight driveline and it will make a number. Take that same exact engine and put it in a 4WD truck with a loose converter and it will make much less power. Did the engine HP change? No. But the dyno read lower. That's because it's a CHASSIS DYNO! It does not measure engine power. You want engine power? Put it on an engine dyno.
I guess you never read my first post. A vehicles weight does not change the power an engine produces. In fact, it does not change the power it produces at the wheels (driveline weight variances being equal). HOWEVER, the difference lies in the testing method, the dyno type. Changing the vehicles weight input on a Mustang dyno most certainly affects the power measurement of the dyno. That is fact. Increase the weight input and the measured power goes down. That's just the way it is. You can focus on the wrong point all you like, it won't change the facts.
I guess you never read my first post. A vehicles weight does not change the power an engine produces. In fact, it does not change the power it produces at the wheels (driveline weight variances being equal). HOWEVER, the difference lies in the testing method, the dyno type. Changing the vehicles weight input on a Mustang dyno most certainly affects the power measurement of the dyno. That is fact. Increase the weight input and the measured power goes down. That's just the way it is. You can focus on the wrong point all you like, it won't change the facts.
I know all of this. I am not focusing on the wrong point. What I am saying pure and simple is that the weight correction factor on a "loaded" dyno should not effect the power output at the wheels.
If you take a f-body for example with a stock drivetrain and dyno it and get xxx number. Then take and strip 300 lbs out of it, adjust the weight factor, you will get a higher number. Has the actual power at the wheels changed?? NO. Will the car accelerate quicker?? YES. Not due to increased RWHP, but due to decreased mass. That is all I am trying to say.
1 hp is a known quantity. Does the size of the horse have anything to do with it.?? NO. The exact definition of one horsepower is 33,000 lb.ft./minute.
Doesn't matter if the horse is a shetland pony or a clydesdale, it still has to move the object the same distance in the same amount of time.
I am just saying that a cars weight "should" not have an effect on the reading. I know it does. It was just a rant.
03-26-2008, 02:39 AM
#20
The time the car is on the Mustang dyno it accelerates and behaves like it would under real world acceleration. When my car was on the DynoJet the engine behaved like I was driving down a steep hill (or I dropped a 1000lbs from the car). The acceleration was artificial.