View Full Version : LSX Index


Pro Stock John
04-15-2008, 04:20 PM
Trans brakes, delay boxes, cross-over boxes, or any “reaction-time related” electronic bracket racing aids prohibited in this class. Throttle stops and all related throttle-stop type accessories prohibited.


Doh a friend pointed this out to me on the phone today, trans brakes are prohibited? Hmmmmm.

Wonderbread
04-16-2008, 12:40 PM
The trans brake deal is pretty stupid. I dont run one, but I know people that do. That is a bunch of shit!

ZR1 DREAMING
04-16-2008, 01:53 PM
All that looks to be the same as last year. Is the trans brake rule new this year?

Pro Stock John
04-16-2008, 02:42 PM
Yup, here are last year's rules:

http://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=694007

NMCA Scott
04-16-2008, 05:47 PM
Just spoke to some of the tech guys here about this issue. The rule has been added to keep the playing field level. They feel that if trans brakes are allowed it could easily mean a proliferation of these type cars/devices in the class, which could alienate the footbrake guys who make up the majority of the class – forcing them to either step up and buy more junk to be competitive, or just give up. Also from a technical perspective, it helps the process by not having to spend a bunch of time trying to figure out if the wires attached to the thing are there for the intended purpose, or perhaps branch out into something -- uhm -- else.
If you have one on your car, you can still race, but it will be required to be inoperable and verified by the tech folk at the event.

kp
04-16-2008, 06:05 PM
Just spoke to some of the tech guys here about this issue. The rule has been added to keep the playing field level. They feel that if trans brakes are allowed it could easily mean a proliferation of these type cars/devices in the class, which could alienate the footbrake guys who make up the majority of the class – forcing them to either step up and buy more junk to be competitive, or just give up. Also from a technical perspective, it helps the process by not having to spend a bunch of time trying to figure out if the wires attached to the thing are there for the intended purpose, or perhaps branch out into something -- uhm -- else.
If you have one on your car, you can still race, but it will be required to be inoperable and verified by the tech folk at the event.

What do you do with a TCI trans brake like mine that you have to use for reverse? Just dont park where you have to back up I guess lol.

No offense Scott but allowing 8.50 cars and not allowing trans brakes is ridiculous IMO ;) If these types of cars arent what you want in the class limit the ET to 10.0 or something for the showdown..

SSPerformance
04-16-2008, 07:22 PM
yes i agree the rule is kinda stupid in the lower et index when ur that deep into it the t-brake is not that much more.

NMCA Scott
04-16-2008, 07:36 PM
What do you do with a TCI trans brake like mine that you have to use for reverse? Just dont park where you have to back up I guess lol.

No offense Scott but allowing 8.50 cars and not allowing trans brakes is ridiculous IMO ;) If these types of cars arent what you want in the class limit the ET to 10.0 or something for the showdown..

LOL.. No offense taken KP as I am just the messenger, but I'll make sure the guys here understand where those of you with faster cars are coming from. It does present a quandary for sure.

kp
04-16-2008, 08:33 PM
LOL.. No offense taken KP as I am just the messenger, but I'll make sure the guys here understand where those of you with faster cars are coming from. It does present a quandary for sure.

I can understand why you guys dont want faster or more race oriented cars in that class. Why not split the index class, maybe 8.50-10.00 as a 'fast' index class and let trans brakes in. You could even get creative and run the faster index class last and let the 1st round losers of DR and all motor run it if they make it back to the lanes in time. That way you arent taking cars out of heads up classes to run the faster index if they are thinking of bailing out because they arent quick enough.

Leave 10.00 and slower foot brake only, be easier to ladder also, I dont know why I wasted my time qualifying when there was no ladder lol, C16 is expensive and I could have slept a couple more hours.

Not to mention it will be a lot better from a spectator point of view since the cars are a little closer together ET-wise. Plus easier to manage the staging lanes as well with the faster cars separated from the slower ones when called.

Just rambling, I know it probably wont change but it sure would be nice to give the in between cars a decent class..

NMCA Scott
04-16-2008, 08:50 PM
I'll need to go back over the number of entries again. I know I posted it somewhere here last year -- breaking down the car count by et. This way I can see how the numbers stack up and then let the others take a look at it.

kp
04-16-2008, 09:09 PM
Here is the thread:

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=800217&highlight=9.00+index

Here is what you posted a while back:

9.00 -- 2
9.50 -- 1
10.0 -- 7
10.5 -- 5
11.0 -- 10
11.5 -- 11
12.0 -- 13
12.5 -- 4
13.0 -- 4
13.5 -- 3
14.0 -- 5

I changed it since you missed the one 9.50 car.

If you went 10.5-8.50 thats 15 cars, which still is more than either DR or all motor had. DR had 12 cars qualified and All motor had 6 cars..

There are qite a few cars in the mid/high 8s and low/mid 9s that just arent going to take a chance in DR. And thats a shame because they represent cars that are usually home built and have a heck of a lot of time and money invested to be lumped in with 13 second cars and their balls cut off with no trans brake allowed.

But then again maybe no one cares :)

NMCA Scott
04-16-2008, 09:25 PM
Thanks Kevin. I'll run it up the flagpole. And before you DR guys get all in a "splitting the class" twist -- understand that there are a heck of a lot more cars we are talking about here -- also -- this is only an idea. I doubt anything will come of it, but I'll make sure it's at least considered.

ls1pwrdss
04-16-2008, 11:05 PM
shit i just put a th350 with a brake in my car.
i only run 11's what if i disconect the brake and foot brake it

kp
04-16-2008, 11:46 PM
Thanks Kevin. I'll run it up the flagpole. And before you DR guys get all in a "splitting the class" twist -- understand that there are a heck of a lot more cars we are talking about here -- also -- this is only an idea. I doubt anything will come of it, but I'll make sure it's at least considered.

Thats cool Scott, I know everyone is reluctant to change anything since it was somewhat successful last year. But there is always room for improvement and non drastic changes.

Villain281H
04-17-2008, 10:01 PM
I can see both sides on this, but keep in mind the EFI class is the closest one that makes the regular tour to the LSX index class with a 5 tenths pro tree and preset half second indexes, and there are no transbrakes allowed in it either.

kp
04-17-2008, 11:17 PM
Late model EFI also includes Vipers, Mustangs and whatnot, the LSX index race does not so I dont see what that has to do with anything :) there are index races all across the country running every weekind so it sure isnt anything novel..

FWIW Late Model EFI allowed trans brakes last year, and guess what a 13 second footbrake car won the championship. And John cut some pretty damn good lights as well. If you have a car that can red light on a .500 pro tree (like mine) its harder to cut a good light with no delay box so I dont see the big deal about the trans brakes, it goes both ways. On a .400 tree there would most definately be an advantage but its not a .400 so its moot.

Wonderbread
04-18-2008, 02:25 PM
They feel that if trans brakes are allowed it could easily mean a proliferation of these type cars/devices in the class, which could alienate the footbrake guys who make up the majority of the class – forcing them to either step up and buy more junk to be competitive, or just give up.

Well I won the index class last year, with a foot brake 11.50 car, and I raced a few faster Tbrake cars.....


So obviously it can be done with a foot brake car vs. t-brake cars.


Hi Scott :) Have ya missed me? lol

ls1pwrdss
04-18-2008, 11:27 PM
allow the t brakes or just let us disconnect them im not a fast car i just braket race so i cant hang with the big dogs in all motor or drag radial

Villain281H
04-20-2008, 01:24 PM
Kevin,

I understand your point, and I didn't read last year's rulebook so my fault there. Just trying to see where NMCA's viewpoint is coming from. I know Open Comp allows them on the 5 tenths pro tree, but again that's everything from old cars to new cars.

Derek

kp
04-20-2008, 08:28 PM
Kevin,

I understand your point, and I didn't read last year's rulebook so my fault there. Just trying to see where NMCA's viewpoint is coming from. I know Open Comp allows them on the 5 tenths pro tree, but again that's everything from old cars to new cars.

Derek

I know, I'm just saying that last year trans brakes were allowed in both the LSX race and late model EFI and both were won by slower footbrake cars.

Around here in footbrake you arent supposed to have a trans that shifts by itself since thats an advantage over manual trans and older autos. IMO cutting a decent light on a .500 tree with a 12 second car isnt an issue but the consistancy of leaving a 4L60 in drive is a much bigger advantage than a 9 second trans brake/manual shifted auto or the poor stick shift guys IMO. Even though I notice I could run an airshifter and footbrake which would help me more than the trans brake, my car runs just fine off the footbrake but I'm not going to glaze over my direct clutches trying to back it up because they make me disconnect the TB solenoid. Honestly I run downtrack timing retards to slow the car up to where I want it, I can either start them with the trans brake solenoid or with the brake light switch so not allowing a brake doesnt help that at all. And since there is no external boxes you really cant police that.. But in the end the trans brake, all the fancy electronics and consistancy in the world doesnt help when the driver shifts from first to third lol.

But IMO the best solution would be a 'fast' and 'slow' bracket class instead of lumping 8.50-14.00 second cars together which makes for some pretty lopsided and confusng racing to say the least when 64 cars show up for 1st round. I'll even bitch a little about how much it sucks to be strapped in a low 9 second car waiting in the staging lanes with 80 other cars to make a pass starting it up and rolling up a few feet ever 10 minutes on a sunny 80 degree day, big difference between that and sitting there waiting in jeans and a t-shirt in a stockish car ;)

Or even just make one 8.50 to 9.50 heads up index class for the faster cars that cant run DR. In reality the showdown class really isnt an index race, its a bracket race with dial ins set at .5 second intervals. An index race would be all cars running the same ET like I do almost every weekend (6.0 1/8 mile index is where I have been racing mostly) but I'm sure they do that just to make it sound slightly different than the regular bracket race they run and open comp.

Either way if they just want a bunch of 11-14 second street cars for the showdown dont put on a facade by allowing 8.50 cars in and then say you cant run a trans brake and you really dont want any of that 'type' of car running in that class. How many footbrake 8.50 1/4 mile cars are out there in any class..

FWIW I'm just giving some observations, everyone said 'come on down' and we'll adjust the rules next year when we see how it goes and who shows up. Only thing I seen changed was they now dont allow trans brakes in the index class and a trans brake car didnt even win, and they now have a 8.50 index. They told the nitrous guys to 'come on down' and they did, and they didnt change anything much in DR. The 'come on down' thing works once, maybe twice but for what it costs to travel these days and race I doubt it will work many times ;)

Pro Stock John
04-20-2008, 09:10 PM
Yeah the index class needs the transbrake back, the ones who don't have one don't care and the ones that do won't race.

ls1pwrdss
04-20-2008, 10:18 PM
i dont mind using the foot brake in my car i just dont want them not to let me race because my trans has a trans brake

kp
04-20-2008, 10:54 PM
i dont mind using the foot brake in my car i just dont want them not to let me race because my trans has a trans brake


If you have one on your car, you can still race, but it will be required to be inoperable and verified by the tech folk at the event.

There you go

NMCA Scott
04-21-2008, 05:54 PM
Will one of you guys do me a favor and put up a "Do foot brake racers care if they race against transbrakes" poll?

SSPerformance
04-21-2008, 06:47 PM
Yeah the index class needs the transbrake back, the ones who don't have one don't care and the ones that do won't race.


well said

ls1pwrdss
04-21-2008, 09:15 PM
There you gothanks scott

7420NW7TH
04-21-2008, 10:02 PM
At HRP, they can tell if you are launching on a tbrake. So if you show up in a class that prohibits tbrakes, they:buttkick:

But if you are honest and upfront about it, they will let you run footbrake class with a tbrake, as long as you don't use it.....and they will be watching...:suspiciou

REDGAR
04-22-2008, 07:09 AM
I forget...do we allow deep staging?
If you allow deep staging I am okay with the brakes
If you don't allow deep staging then the slower cars will have difficulty cutting a tree where mid area cars using a brake (like 10-12) will overcome that with the brake and ET.
The 8.50 and 9.00 cars, I still cannot figure why they want to race a 14 second car (potentially)

kp
04-22-2008, 11:18 AM
The 8.50 and 9.00 cars, I still cannot figure why they want to race a 14 second car (potentially)

I dont think anyone WANTS to run a 14 second car with a 9.0 second car, I sure dont, but what other choice is there if you want to participate?

Getting your ass kicked by 7 second cars in drag radial heads up isnt much of an option if you have a 8.50-9.50 car.

NMCA Scott
04-22-2008, 07:10 PM
Trans brakes now allowed. With the addition of the LSX Truck Showdown, trucks are now not allowed in the Index Showdown. See revised rules which will be posted here soon or at http://www.nmcadigital.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9443

kp
04-22-2008, 07:31 PM
Trans brakes now allowed. With the addition of the LSX Truck Showdown, trucks are now not allowed in the Index Showdown. See revised rules which will be posted here soon or at http://www.nmcadigital.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9443


Cool, but I would have still rather had two index classes (fast and slow) then a separate truck class. I'm sure the guys with faster trucks would rather race with the faster cars as well.

Cant please everyone I guess :)

NMCA Scott
04-22-2008, 07:35 PM
You're right kp... can't please 'em all. There will be not be two (car) index classes in 2008.
End of discussion.

kp
04-22-2008, 07:44 PM
No big deal Scott, I appreciate your efforts as always.

If I do make the trip to Memphis this year it will be with my 13.50 Trailblazer SS, with no brake :)

REDGAR
04-22-2008, 08:42 PM
Looks like trans brakes are in

http://www.nmcadigital.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9443

bluecajun5.3
04-22-2008, 08:51 PM
Cool, but I would have still rather had two index classes (fast and slow) then a separate truck class. I'm sure the guys with faster trucks would rather race with the faster cars as well.

Cant please everyone I guess :)

nope.
i'm pretty sure they'd rather run with other trucks.
that's why the truck class was brought in.

kp
04-22-2008, 09:43 PM
nope.
i'm pretty sure they'd rather run with other trucks.
that's why the truck class was brought in.


I'm pretty sure the truck class was brought in because a lot of people said they would run if they did, wont know until October how many people will show up for it - its easy to click on a web page and say you are going to go..

Doesnt matter much to me really, the car class still has a bigger payout ;)

fossil
04-22-2008, 10:04 PM
I'm pretty sure the truck class was brought in because a lot of people said they would run if they did, wont know until October how many people will show up for it - its easy to click on a web page and say you are going to go..

Doesnt matter much to me really, the car class still has a bigger payout ;)

If it is not talked about, then how will it happen? We have to see if the interest is there first. Remember this is about filling the stands with race fans to see some close racing. The money is a bonus to most, pride to be champion of your class is just over whelming to most.

kp
04-22-2008, 10:15 PM
If it is not talked about, then how will it happen? We have to see if the interest is there first. Remember this is about filling the stands with race fans to see some close racing. The money is a bonus to most, pride to be champion of your class is just over whelming to most.

I'm not against having a truck class, I have a truck too, actually two of them if you count my dmax pickup.

Matter of fact I'd be more inclined to run in the truck class, less cars to deal with most likely. And I totally agree about the even racing, except my idea of even is keeping the ETs closer together, not the bodystyles ;)

NMCA Scott
04-23-2008, 09:58 AM
Splitting the index class has merit, especially based on last year's numbers. It's something which will be discussed further and be reconsidered for 2009. It just didn't end up in the 2008 mix due to budgeting concerns, not because we view it as a bad idea.

kp
04-23-2008, 10:52 AM
Splitting the index class has merit, especially based on last year's numbers. It's something which will be discussed further and be reconsidered for 2009. It just didn't end up in the 2008 mix due to budgeting concerns, not because we view it as a bad idea.

I know Scott, just happy you put the trans brakes back in, but in the American political spirit its always better to lobby for much more and maybe get a little something.

I dont really expect anyone to listen to me being the internet and all, good idea or not ;)

NMCA Scott
04-23-2008, 11:59 AM
I know Scott, just happy you put the trans brakes back in, but in the American political spirit its always better to lobby for much more and maybe get a little something.

I dont really expect anyone to listen to me being the internet and all, good idea or not ;)


Ahhhh.. a lobbyist. Perhaps gifts and trips to tropical places would help sway opinion.

kp
04-23-2008, 04:58 PM
Ahhhh.. a lobbyist. Perhaps gifts and trips to tropical places would help sway opinion.

I'll send you a check lol.

Sunset01TA
04-24-2008, 08:20 AM
Posted this in the other foot brake poll area.
http://www.dragracingonline.com/columns/deadon/ix_3-1.html

kp
04-24-2008, 10:43 AM
Posted this in the other foot brake poll area.
http://www.dragracingonline.com/columns/deadon/ix_3-1.html

Those buttons have been around for years, really a delay box only does any good on a full tree, not a pro tree. Only thing that button would be good for is if someone was able to red light on a pro tree or wants to leave on the bottom bulb in a certain place every time on a full tree. While its possible for some with a very fast/light car to red light on a .500 pro tree most cant unless they stage deep.

Delay boxes, timers etc are not magic devices that are going to let you win races at will, none of those things can replace going to the track and racing your car against other people (not just making time runs), what happens in the last 10 feet is what wins and loses a bracket race most of the time.