Advanced Engineering Tech - big horsepower small cube lsx

im new to the forum over here and joined mostly because ive got an idea for a car im building and im wondering if any of the stuff has been done yet.
Im in the process of building a modern/old school front engine dragster which has some tricks that have not been done on one yet. The major one being a monoshock 4 link setup in the rear. ill have to get some pics for those who may be interested.

anyway. I was building the car to meet jr fuel regulations but decided that may want to venture away from that class and just build something for nostalgia meets and for fun. Initial plans were a small cubic inch SBC possibly a 301. 327 block with 283 crank. ive also looked into anything up to 400 block using a very short stroke crank. I dont really want anything over 320-330 CI. After talking to a friend and engine builder of 20+ years he feels that one of these motor combo's could turn 11k rpm. Id like to be a little more conservative and say 9500 to 10k.

So here the question comes. Do you guys think the same would be possible with an LSX. I would love an aluminum block due to the major weight savings. As far as ive seen what im looking for is another 1k rpm further then whats around. obviously massive flowing heads and intake are needed aswell as a very large cam. Motor will most likely be mechanical stack injection on alcohol with a 10% nitromethane cut. I have looked at the 4.8 engines but a little more on the bore and a little less stroke would be better i believe, also no alum block. I know this motor would have a narrow powerband but again this would be in a 1400lb car with a stall in the 7k rpm range into a powerglide trans.

let me know what you guys are thinking.. good, bad, indifferent. hell maybe someone has already gone crazy with this and i just havent found it!!

heres a couple pics of the car.. 4-link style has changed since this.. didnt like the idea of that torsion bar as much and it weighed a lot

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm164/mikeschino/dragster4.jpg

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm164/mikeschino/dragster5.jpg

Nice to see something different, but not sure why? As far as. . .


After talking to a friend and engine builder of 20+ years he feels that one of these motor combo's could turn 11k rpm.

Get a new engine builder, that is a flat out bs story if I ever heard one!

LSx would be cool in that combo.

Nice to see something different, but not sure why? As far as. . .




Get a new engine builder, that is a flat out bs story if I ever heard one!

LSx would be cool in that combo.

+1. This ain't formula one. Where would you even get a tacometer for a application like that,

were not talking a long stroke big block either. i dont want to start a pissing match just want opinions. share with us why its not possible

10k is definately possible with a short stroke motor. 11 would be pushing it. He had run a 301 setup in a 1st gen camaro stick car where they would launch in the 8k rpm range and shift at 9600. an 11k rpm tach with recall proves it. hell look at nascar turning the rpm they do for hours! were only talking a few seconds here.

10k is definately possible with a short stroke motor
TRUE!

? WHY ?

10K = $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $

were not talking a long stroke big block either. i dont want to start a pissing match just want opinions. share with us why its not possible

10k is definately possible with a short stroke motor. 11 would be pushing it. He had run a 301 setup in a 1st gen camaro stick car where they would launch in the 8k rpm range and shift at 9600. an 11k rpm tach with recall proves it. hell look at nascar turning the rpm they do for hours! were only talking a few seconds here.

Here's a couple of questions:

1. What kind of flywheel gasoline NA horsepower do you need from the 320 cubes? 600? 650? 675?

2. How much money can you spend? 9000+ is going to get very costly, even with no more hp than 7500-8000....probably less.

3. Is this more about rpm than actual power and drag strip performance? I hope not.

FWIW, would 8.70 @150s mph meet your goals? There is a rear engine ~1500# pump gas rail running a 6.0L LS truck engine with a hydraulic roller spinning 7500+ using stock LS lifters (not the Caddy race lifters) which runs those times.

.

Why would someone design an engine to run a certain RPM. 99.9999% of normal people build per their budget or to get a minimum HP/size to compete in a certain class. If you need to run small small inch's, than you will have to spin it more.
As you mentioned, you have looked at several combo's. You have learned, big bore, short stroke, will give you more RPM safely.
10-11K is probably no big deal to actually do, they have 10K BBC's. The issue is maintenance, longevity, reliability.
Springs take a beating at those levels. TI valve's are expensive. Top of line push rods, shaft rockers, lighten rods ect.
To each his own & it's your car & money, but most people are going to ?? why you want a 301".
Especially when you can have more power, cheaper, more reliability with a 400-412 type engine. Good luck.

.

Here's a couple of questions:

1. What kind of flywheel gasoline NA horsepower do you need from the 320 cubes? 600? 650? 675?

2. How much money can you spend? 9000+ is going to get very costly, even with no more hp than 7500-8000....probably less.

3. Is this more about rpm than actual power and drag strip performance? I hope not.

FWIW, would 8.70 @150s mph meet your goals? There is a rear engine ~1500# pump gas rail running a 6.0L LS truck engine with a hydraulic roller spinning 7500+ using stock LS lifters (not the Caddy race lifters) which runs those times.

I know you are normally talking big money for a motor that could do this. Ive looked through parts needed for a sbc and its all got to be light and strong to hold her together.

1. was shooting for 700hp on alcohol. minimal gains over race gas.

2. I dont have any sort of budget set yet as I am just tossing up ideas on what to use. I would need custom crank, rods, pistons, heads, cam, valve springs ect. which would start adding up quickly but other things like girdle, larger head studs, anything to do with machining or modding already existing parts i can do.

3. It is not all about the rpm, i would like a very good performing car. I just want to try to do it on a small cubic inch motor with no power adders and on that playing field you have to step it up in some other way.

as far as how fast that comes down to the hp and weight both of which i dont know now. 700hp in 1400lbs should go around 7.50 at 180 chassis cert will be 6.30 which it wont ever see

there's a guy that owns a chain of muffler shops that lives around where i do. he's got a dragster with a 33xcid SBC that turns 13K and runs 7.6xx's i think....i have no real input here other than:

it CAN be done.

it WILL be EXPENSIVE.

...and you'll get good and rebuilding it, really fast.

I know you are normally talking big money for a motor that could do this. Ive looked through parts needed for a sbc and its all got to be light and strong to hold her together.

1. was shooting for 700hp on alcohol. minimal gains over race gas.

2. I dont have any sort of budget set yet as I am just tossing up ideas on what to use. I would need custom crank, rods, pistons, heads, cam, valve springs ect. which would start adding up quickly but other things like girdle, larger head studs, anything to do with machining or modding already existing parts i can do.

3. It is not all about the rpm, i would like a very good performing car. I just want to try to do it on a small cubic inch motor with no power adders and on that playing field you have to step it up in some other way.

as far as how fast that comes down to the hp and weight both of which i dont know now. 700hp in 1400lbs should go around 7.50 at 180 chassis cert will be 6.30 which it wont ever see

700 fwhp on E85 (!) should be posible by 8000 with an LS. The easy way is 365 cubes, but you can do it with 320-330 if you really need to. It's just more expensive.

It's not a DIY project, IMO.

700 fwhp is easy on any pump gas LSX if you run bigger cubes and a bigger hydraulic cam. in fact, a 427-454 should be able to do it with shiftpoints under 6400 rpms! lol, no brainer since its cheaper and much much easier on the motor. if you are doing a dragster, i assume you want to go rounds....

I have have started an engine build similar to this to run NHRA comp elimnator. I just let work and other things get in front of it. I started with a Callies 3.00 stroke crank and a LSX block 4.125 and a set C-5r heads complete Jesel valvetrain. Yes every piece of this engine is hand built shooting for power from 8000-10200. Will make 880/530 when completed. I already have sbc 321 with SBX heads that make this kind of power and in the same rpm range so I have a baseline. Yes it is expensive and yes you will have lots of critiscm, but if I was on there side of the 400 ci fence and someone with 80 ci less than me had more power I would try to discourage that person too.

I have have started an engine build similar to this to run NHRA comp elimnator. I just let work and other things get in front of it. I started with a Callies 3.00 stroke crank and a LSX block 4.125 and a set C-5r heads complete Jesel valvetrain. Yes every piece of this engine is hand built shooting for power from 8000-10200. Will make 880/530 when completed. I already have sbc 321 with SBX heads that make this kind of power and in the same rpm range so I have a baseline. Yes it is expensive and yes you will have lots of critiscm, but if I was on there side of the 400 ci fence and someone with 80 ci less than me had more power I would try to discourage that person too.

that sounds like a MEAN engine! :)

Chris.

I already have sbc 321 with SBX heads that make this kind of power and in the same rpm range so I have a baseline.

What rods were you using (mostly curious about length)?

Eagle makes a 6.385 BBC rod cut for 2.100 journals which I'd like to try with 1.13 comp height pistons (for 383 or 400 w/ 6" rods). Off the shelf components for the win.

5.615 rod length 1.200 comp height 8.315 deck (GM mid-deck block)

I have have started an engine build similar to this to run NHRA comp elimnator. I just let work and other things get in front of it. I started with a Callies 3.00 stroke crank and a LSX block 4.125 and a set C-5r heads complete Jesel valvetrain. Yes every piece of this engine is hand built shooting for power from 8000-10200. Will make 880/530 when completed. I already have sbc 321 with SBX heads that make this kind of power and in the same rpm range so I have a baseline. Yes it is expensive and yes you will have lots of critiscm, but if I was on there side of the 400 ci fence and someone with 80 ci less than me had more power I would try to discourage that person too.

what you have is pretty much what im looking to do. its good to see someone else is already there and with some impressive numbers. i had looked at the 3.00 stroke crank and the 4.125 bore when i was looking at sbc stuff.. ive also come across some 2.9" stroke cranks from dirt track motors.

I initially looked into the smaller cubic inch realm when i started building the car for use in nostalgia dragster class like the jr fuel a/b. in this class you need 3.5lbs per cubic inch so the less cubes the lighter the car. there is a minimum though. max cube is also 410. One last thing is it has to be iron block sbc, sbf, or hemi with factory style iron heads. must run alcohol and must run stack injection, no collector headers. well the lsx definately pushes us out of this category but i would like to still stick with the same concept on weight and other things. take a look at some of the junior fuel A cars. they are well into the 6's with a little old small block and no power adders. if you look around thats not far off the tail from the nostalgia top fuel guys!

I think T56 rebuilds turned there's 9500 and runs 8.90's in a camaro! I believe it made 920 flywheel hp, but it is 400 give or take a few cubes.

So you want to build a A/ND - B/ND comp elim. type car but do it with a LSx type motor. Yes I understand the head rules disqualify for NHRA use. I will tell a little secret that in 1999 and 2000 I beleive that the 6.0 cam with cast iron heads which would make it legal in A. I will also say those dam cars make me mad ha ha and Dean Carter has whipped me twice in one but pay back is not far away.

I think T56 rebuilds turned there's 9500 and runs 8.90's in a camaro! I believe it made 920 flywheel hp, but it is 400 give or take a few cubes.

FWIW - joe and amber's motor is alot closer to 500 c.i. than it is to 400c.i.. i believe its 481 or 482 c.i.. it's about as big as you can go with the LSX block.

So you want to build a A/ND - B/ND comp elim. type car but do it with a LSx type motor. Yes I understand the head rules disqualify for NHRA use. I will tell a little secret that in 1999 and 2000 I beleive that the 6.0 cam with cast iron heads which would make it legal in A. I will also say those dam cars make me mad ha ha and Dean Carter has whipped me twice in one but pay back is not far away.

Yes you are correct the first couple years were cast iron headed, nice deal too cause 6.0 has the deep wide ports , but large lazy combustion chambers.
Good luck, i LOVE hi rpm the best N/A!

I think T56 rebuilds turned there's 9500 and runs 8.90's in a camaro! I believe it made 920 flywheel hp, but it is 400 give or take a few cubes.

pretty sure amber told me she shifts at 10,500 and it is a 414( or close to)

but one thing i have learned about the forum is one set of people will like it, another will hate it, and some don't care. just buile what you want. like my motor i did a 377 with aps twin kit. now for the same money i could of done a 414. yank, yank.

Build what you want. and the only thing will be the long haul. most don't like to spin that much. but you money. your car.

pretty sure amber told me she shifts at 10,500 and it is a 414( or close to)

but one thing i have learned about the forum is one set of people will like it, another will hate it, and some don't care. just buile what you want. like my motor i did a 377 with aps twin kit. now for the same money i could of done a 414. yank, yank.

Build what you want. and the only thing will be the long haul. most don't like to spin that much. but you money. your car.

have you got any more info on the 377engine with the APS kit? sounds like an intresting combo! :)

also what would a LS7 block with say a LS2 crank net you?? just thinking for High RPM applications you need plenty of heads and the LS7 stuff is pretty hot out the box! ;)

Chris.

FWIW - joe and amber's motor is alot closer to 500 c.i. than it is to 400c.i.. i believe its 481 or 482 c.i.. it's about as big as you can go with the LSX block.

Joe and Amber of SSI are running 8.90s with a 6.0 iron block and a little over 400 inches with a 4.000 crank and a 4.005 bore or so and their car is still pretty heavy. It does pull to around 10K. It's a drysump race engine though but it isn't now and never was anything like 482 CID!

Schino, if you want high rpm then spend the money on good valvetrain system and a good dry sump system and you will have an engine that makes you happy. With a small 300 cube engine there are 20 different heads that will make power up there. Anyone can turn that kind of rpm with a small engine, it's easy. Just bring the money.