merlinsrealm

I've finally convinced Joe to look into his old cylinder head power and flow numbers to bring a "bargain" product to the table that will compete with the other "Walmart" based CNC heads that are out there right now, he responded with an old runner design from over 2.5 years ago that works fantastic and will fit into the $1,299.00 price bracket, I was given a few recent and older S1 dyno sheets that will be posted shortly to give everyone an example of what type of power he has made in the past with this very successfull runner design. These heads along with a Thunder Racing 224/224/.561 cam have already gone as low as 11.36 in an A4 car and as high as 118.90 - 121.00 MPH in an M6 Formula at stock weight. I will be fielding any questions, inquires and taking the orders at JPRracing@comcast.net I will pick up a copy of the flow numbers from Joe tonight and post them in here for everyone to view but I know he has them down to a science! For the people that may not be familiar with the old "JPRS1" heads, he had a very successful run with that design for almost 3 years, but dropped them for Stage 2 research and developement and you can see how well thats been going!

Eric White

JPR Managing Director of Sales and Marketing.

ScreaminSS01

So in the end you are still getting stage 1's?

jfm

iTrader: (4)

Will there be a Blue Light Special?LOL

Good idea to set up some lower price heads to compete with Walmart.

merlinsrealm

No blue light specials but the Zoro Happy face will be slashing prices periodically

Eric

VINCE

iTrader: (1)

We all know how well JPR's Stage I's are. I cant wait to see what the special is...

mike m

iTrader: (6)

hmm maybe he will have a stage 1 3/4 heads. JPR will come up with something special for the bargain hunters

Ragtop 99

iTrader: (7)

That's a good idea. His original stage 1's went real well with a small cam. Had a great torque line. With a Z06 cam or TR 220 you could make a great no compromise daily driver set-up.

His stage 1.5s and a TR 224 got my boat in the 11s on 7 cylinders. If my engine wasn't toast at that point, they probably would still be on the car. Those were stock valve and would be a good model to follow for a low cost head.

The Alchemist

iTrader: (19)

Joes original S1's and a 218 cam put my car at a 12.2 @ 117 on BFG snow tires with 3.42s and a 3768 race weight in an m6.

The dyno said I only made 380/370 but I surprised quite a few people with the stock sounding setup.

I probably could have ran a solid 11 if I have dropped some weight and geared the car properly, but I wanted a no compromise low 12 second daily driver and Joe delivered that with no problem.

Way to go Joe and JPR.

PacerX

iTrader: (4)

For the love of God...

If folks in the most "technical" LS1 board around can't get their minds around the fact that a CNC head is EVERY BIT as good as anybody else's hand ported head then we're doomed.

They aren't "Walmart", and I GUARANTEE that if the programming is done right they'll be FAR more consistent.



...Walmart...

Go price a top-line 6-axis CNC mill some time and tell me that's "Walmart". For the cost of one of those machines YOU CAN BUY YOUR OWN FRIGGIN WALMART.

Here's a suggestion...

Tell Joe to contact me and I'll hook him up with some REAL DEAL machinists from the Detroit area to make his TOP design. BTW - these shops will be more than happy to operate under a confidentiality agreement, they do it all the time, and have no interest in competing with him - they just want to run their machines.

Joe has a great reputation, and I certainly admire his work. It would be great for him to see the benefits monetarily and through product consistency that a world-class CNC process can provide.

If we spend the time on the programming and fixturing and tooling, a human being won't have to touch them at ALL, and we can make the surface finish look like freaking GLASS.

Then it's just chuck 'em up and hit "GO".




Cripes.... I can't believe this....

PacerX

iTrader: (4)

One more thing...

I would imagine that whatever CNC sponsors here who read this would not appreciate the woefully ignorant idea that their heads are somehow inferior because they managed to take advantage of 20 year old technology and cut them on a CNC mill.

Welcome to 1983.

JPR

Pacer X,
Thanks for the props, but, we have more than a great reputation, we have a sterling reputation for standing behind advertised power numbers and repeatability, customers that have had power output problems I have actually gone to there state to help them out with tunning on the dyno, I can list the people if you like. I can repeat flow numbers and duplicate power combos all day long by hand becuse I have been porting heads for 17 years even before I had a flow bench to confirm a port for flow, I'm a natural like Jay @ Absolute that I originally trained, but I'm Craig Gallent's Protegee. I have nothing against CNC production/manufacturing but our type of S1 heads are very port sensitive to runner geometry that a CNC machine cannot duplicate (we tried already and it was a waste of alot of my money) within the accuracy level that I can achive by hand that CNC cannot see with 1 blanket program, meaning, some bowls like to be tweaked a little bit more on the left, some more on the right to get the exact same flow and swirl all the way down the line. There are too many port discrepencys from the factory, ie core shift, seat depth and location, bowl material "puddling" to name a couple and pull away from whats considered "the ideal seat runner locations" that may have been originally cast correctly but is loosing it's accuracy through the years. We strive to have the smallest intake runners available with the highest flow rates, thats where the real power is. To find the repeatability that your talking about, you would have to do an all out CNC rectification of the runner/bowl/seat to establish data point for data point repeatability and IMO thats too much material removed, I can find 300 cfm by hand within 25 minuits per runner by stratigic material removal with leaving the stock runner material untouched, show me a CNC based program that can blasts through a runner within 10 minuits and flows a point for point QUALITY 300 cfm's at the target lift point that I can achieve by hand and I'll bite . There used to be a thing call personal and professional pride about doing a job well done so go pat the Serdi 9000 on it's back plate for chucking out a good head, untill then, I'm all about hand porting. IMO, TRUE hand porting is a lost art.

Side note:

I have been down the CNC route with a popular sponsor here and I wasn't pleased with anything that came out of there even with the revised programs without having to touch them up by hand to achieve the original slated numbers, but it seems that TEA really has there act together when it comes down to repeatability and the others just seem to "Parrot" others files from what I heard and that why our S2's will never be digitized for mail order, I would rather loose money than loose MY runner design. It's a matter of old school pride Pacer, sorry if I don't share the same values as you but I care more about the customers results than the dollar, does that make me a bad buiss man? probably, but I would rather sacrifice quantity for quality.

Theres is a power struggle going on right now and all sence of logic, respect, decency and professional mannorisms are taking a back seat to, see Yall on the front lines and look for our lowered pricing soon!

ScreaminSS,
Were going to call them S1.5's that act like other companies S2's, our typical S1 Comp 218/224 cam dyno numbers are as high as 417-421 RWH M6 and up to 390 RWH geared high stall locked in a A4 with a Thunder Racing 224/224 cam. sheets will be up today.



Joe at JPR.

Tally TransAm

iTrader: (17)

what size valves, what springs, etc

are there any flow numbers for the heads yet?

turbo

iTrader: (10)

Would he be able to make me a good set of heads matched for the hammer cam. These S1.5s would fall under this cam wouldnt they? I just want to try and keep my flat hp/tq powerband.

Ive been outa the loop somewhat for past year or so. Its crazy how big of cams people are putting in their cars now a days and making power, but their powerband is nothing like what I have done so far. When I was on this board a lot in the past, thunder racing 224 was the biggest thing we had lol.

Thanks guys and great work!

Casey

PacerX

iTrader: (4)

Nope. I know your reputation, and find you to be one of, if not THE, best there is relative to business practices and product. You're the first choice for my car - and given the fact that I have a family and have to make smart choices monetarily for my toys that's saying a LOT.



Joe, the issue is not your capabilities relative to porting - those are known.

The issue is that whomever you have talked to or worked with in the past wasn't capable of supporting you properly. ANY core shift, seat or runner differences can be accounted for via proper fixturing and programming. How do I know this? Because we do this ALL of the time. Every cast part is susceptible to core shift and other issues - but it does not, and has never, stopped experts in machining from accomplishing their jobs. By picking up the correct information from the casting BEFORE we cut it, it can be cut perfectly, every time - that's what the fixturing is for.

As you are well aware, items like transmission cases and cylinder blocks are CNC machined by the OEM's. The tolerancing in a rotating assembly or transmission case (or automatic transmission valve body for that matter) is easily beyond anything a human being with even the best hand-operated machinery can ever approach. No one can see, let alone accurately and repeatably measure by hand, tolerances lower than +/- .0005" and it all happens REGARDLESS of core shift.

You're good, I'd call you great, but you cannot take a surface down to +/-.0005" all day long without fail - no human being could, regardless of how good they are. The machine can.


You're on. Let's talk. (248)-205-3741. A shop or two in the area owes me a few favors.



Joe, the thing to be proud of is not the ability to take a grinder or Bridgeport and use it properly. The pride and value of men like you is that they know WHAT to do, not how to do it.

I started as a manual designer in the automobile industry. I spent countless hours practicing lettering and putting down beautiful lines on mylar. In the end, I was pretty damned good at it too.

BUT, the realization came later that the CAD machines could beat me there. It can put down better lines, it letters perfectly every time.

What it COULDN'T do is know WHAT to do in the first place. It couldn't take a blank piece of paper and draw up something that worked and could actually be built. I can, and THAT'S where the value was, that's where the pride is.

And THAT is where you're value is. I could hire a half dozen folks in the area here in a day who are the absolute kings of manual machining methods, but they'll never have your value - because they don't know WHAT to do.



Joe, any shop I would show you would be bound by confidentiality. We have a standard document we use that I could show you that's iron-tight, feel free to modify it to suit your needs. They wouldn't dare violate it - I can put the hurt on them where it COUNTS, in the pocketbook.

Whether you used popular sponsor or not, they're rookies. It's time to call in the heavy artillery.



It DOESN'T make you a bad businessman. The wrong folks got involved before. I can bring the RIGHT folks to the table - believe you me, that if someone screws up a project, the wrath of GOD comes down complete with pillars of fire and lightning bolts. That's the environment these shops deal with daily.

I don't want anything for it. I have no interest in this other than to see the best cylinder heads in the business (YOURS) available to widest majority of people, at the best price.

What I'm saying is that you can have BOTH quality AND quantity and everyone ends up a winner. The shop runs it's machines, you sell the heads, and customers come out with gigantic ear-to-ear grins on their faces... and Mustangs and Vipers get slapped around like nobody's business.



All true. I hope that I have dealt with you with respect, because that is my intent, and would hope that the CNC guys out there aren't going to have their products described as "Walmart" any more, because the hard, cold fact of the matter is that if done right, the CNC machines can lay down the law... and doing it right starts with the expert. You're the expert.

jfm

iTrader: (4)

PacerX,who do you work for?

TVWilkes

Let me Say,For the record,I have not performed any work for JPR.

PacerX

iTrader: (4)

A fairly large (+$1,000,000,000/year - yes, that's BILLION) automotive supplier.

If you own a car, it's got our parts on it somewhere. Odds are, it's got my parts on it, I was responsible for the F-car parking brake system at one time.

merlinsrealm

Thank You for supporting JPR. You making this statement tells me that even with your vast knowledge of the CNC process you would rather wait for a hand ported set.

I am not bashing CNC machnined heads. I am just not convinced of consistent repeadable numbers with this process.

have you ever been to a walmart to shop...you see lets say a dvd player stacked up on a pallet for sale. you go that seems like a good deal so you pick one up. well....9 times out 10 people dont pick up the one on the top. you dig through a couple and take that one instead. Why is that? Is it because we all know since this is a "good Deal" quality has been sacrificed for quantity. the top and end boxes are banged up from the shipment for example.

Thats how I feel about having heads blown out the door because of a CNC machined process.

Joe has always hand ported his heads and and will continue this process.

If anyone wants to field questions about this please do not hesitate to email me a JPRracing @comcast.net

As far as flow numbers and discription of what we will be calling our "S1.5" heads for the Enthusiasts on a budget as well as dyno sheets, that will be posted shortly.

Thanks again for everyones support.

Eric White
JPR-Managing Director Sales and Marketing

Camaro_Zach

iTrader: (19)

OH! SO NOW I KNOW WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SHITTY E-BRAKE IN MY CAR! hahaha jk

PacerX

iTrader: (4)

Knew that was coming...

Most frustrating parking brake issue:

The damned handle rivet. I told everybody who would listen that it would loosen up unless I pinned it some other way when we were making the switch from the roll pin...

No one would listen.