View Full Version : All Motor Questions


Codefive
08-03-2008, 07:45 AM
I built an engine specifically for this class for a customer last summer but he couldnt pay for it when the real estate market took a turn. Its been sitting for a year and I think its a crime to let a good bullet sit when there is a class designated for it. So I have decided to throw it in a car and make a showing.

First: I notice that the car count is low in the All Motor class. Is there any specific reason why more people dont enter this?

Second: Does anyone feel there could be something done to increase the car count here. It seems like such a great class. I know the all motor stuff is big in the Michigan area and we have it over here on the mid east coast w/ the RAM deal so I dont see why there arent more people entering.

Lastly: I was wondering what the deal is regarding the manual transmissions. Hopefully someone can clear this up for me. I have heard two versions and hoping someone can set this straight: First I heard that Judd ran one of Joe & Amber's face plated six speeds for the event last year and then someone told me that the officials allowed him to run his Jerico. And now he has a Liberty in the car. Is the "stock style OEM transmission" rule going to stand? Also, the officials last year said they were going to put weight on the face plated (clutchless) transmission and in the rules under transmissions it says (*see weights) but there is nothing there. I asked Jeff Conley about this and multi disk clutches and apparently its still open for discussion.
I think if anyone has anything to say, now might be the time to speak up.
Every class in both of Pro-Medias sanctioning bodies puts weight on for both multi disk clutches (if they are even allowed) and clutchless transmissions yet there is nothing here. I have to carry an extra 50# for my heads which may or may not be worth it but the trans & clutch certianly hold a substantial advantage.

I'd really like to hear some feedback on this, please share your honest thoughts.

Thanks in advance!

REDGAR
08-03-2008, 11:49 AM
Welcome to the forum. Thanks for posting that you are brining the motor. I have a roll call thread going. It would help if you posted in there with your setup.
http://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=940892

As for the low car count, last year was the first year so it was hard to guage. Hopefully this year more cars enter as I really like the class as well. I run in the NA Shootout here too in the AMI class because the slowest class, Drag Radial is too quick for me, but it is right inline with the this LSX Shootout All Motor class as far as ET. If your motor fits AMI drag radial, do you have plans on running it there too?

On your second point, I think it might be too late. NMCA has already been through final rules but they did recently make a change for the DR cars so you never know.

You third question is way beyone my realm of knowledge so we'll see what others think.

Robin L
08-03-2008, 01:41 PM
First I think that a lot of people just didn't get their stuff finished or sorted prior to the event. There were a lot more vendors who had planned on bringing cars. When they didn't get them done they sat out from what I heard. It was their loss. I think that it will take time but your going to see a lot more interest in this class I have had a lot of my buddies interested in the NA class.

On to the transmissions, a face plated transmission is not clutchless. I dare you to go rounds with one not using the clutch. It will be an expensive lesson. Jerico as well as others have transmissions that retain an OEM mainshaft/cluster spread.THose are legal.
Liberty makes a doug nash type trans that fits this requirement. The clutchless Liberty has 2 countershafts. It is not based on an OEM design like others.
Liberty also sells face plate Tremec transmissions.

Here is the rule:

TRANSMISSION:
Any OEM style automatic or manual transmissions permitted (* see weights)
Any torque converter allowed. Lock-up type permitted.
Torque convertors not permitted with manual transmissions
Clutch-activated automatic transmissions (re: Clutch-flite) are prohibited


So if you have a trans that uses the OEM spread, and is based off of an OEM design (example Top Loader) then it is legal. Clutchless or not it has to be an OEM style.

THere is nothing in the rules about limits on clutches.

Hope this helps.

Robin

ls1 joe
08-03-2008, 02:41 PM
Codefive,
Judson has never had one of our sixspeeds in the car only the Jerico,I think that the all motor class keeps all but the hardcore racers away, for the money it takes to go fast in this class one could almost build a drag radial car.

nmcajeff
08-04-2008, 07:26 AM
Robin thanks for clearing this up for Codefive.

Pro Stock John
08-09-2008, 12:15 PM
Codefive, I view this class as wide open. Last year Joe and Judson had strong numbers going into the shootout but Val's car one last year as you probably recall, and his setup was a budget build.

I'm gonna try to get a friend who's 8.9 Firehawk has not been to events to show up, but it's a long shot unless he maybe he lets someone else drive it (like Kurt? hint hint).

Hawkn01
08-11-2008, 11:15 AM
I'd love to see more All Motor cars in the mix, but it seems "the Flavor of the Day" seems to be Turbo builds anymore.:judge:

I'm an big All Motor fan and will always be one. It's sad to see that the intrest in this class is falling by the wayside.:confused:

Rich with the "Ram Racing All Motor Series" has a good thing going on the East Coast. They run the Pro NA, 10.5 NA, and Drag Radial NA classes. Lots of strong running NA cars running the series.

kp
08-11-2008, 11:48 AM
I'd love to see more All Motor cars in the mix, but it seems "the Flavor of the Day" seems to be Turbo builds anymore.:judge:

I'm an big All Motor fan and will always be one. It's sad to see that the intrest in this class is falling by the wayside.:confused:

Rich with the "Ram Racing All Motor Series" has a good thing going on the East Coast. They run the Pro NA, 10.5 NA, and Drag Radial NA classes. Lots of strong running NA cars running the series.

Me too, I love all motor cars, but its hard to justify building one cost-wise compared to a forced induction setup that is very forgiving with induction/heads/exhaust. People dont want to be fooling with changing valve springs and connecting rods every 50 passes and paying head porters thousands of dollars to buy heads that are obsolete by the time you get them bolted on if they dont have to. And and go faster to boot with a turbo car.

Unfortunately it seems to be a dying art these days, I have thought about running the NA class a few times but making 1000hp @ 7000rpm with a small hydraulic cam and zero maintenance for a couple years and hundreds of passes gets the best of me.

GIZMO
08-11-2008, 06:41 PM
I'm an big All Motor fan and will always be one. It's sad to see that the intrest in this class is falling by the wayside

I had real interest in running this class. I spent about $60,000.00 getting ready for last year, but missed having the motor ready by about a week. I was going to run this year, but I think I would rather race somewhere else than have to beg for answers from the tech dept.

Daren

Hawkn01
08-11-2008, 08:05 PM
I had real interest in running this class. I spent about $60,000.00 getting ready for last year, but missed having the motor ready by about a week. I was going to run this year, but I think I would rather race somewhere else than have to beg for answers from the tech dept.

Daren


I understand your frustration Daren. :bang:

REDGAR
08-11-2008, 08:53 PM
Sorry you guys are having trouble getting answers to your questions.

Maybe you can call Jeff Conley, Tech Advisor to get a more direct answer.
http://www.nmcadigital.com/contactus.php

Pro Stock John
08-12-2008, 01:56 PM
Call Jeff he picks up his cell everytime as long as he's not at a race.

NMCA Scott
08-13-2008, 11:16 AM
I had real interest in running this class. I spent about $60,000.00 getting ready for last year, but missed having the motor ready by about a week. I was going to run this year, but I think I would rather race somewhere else than have to beg for answers from the tech dept.

Daren

Still nothing from anyone Daren?

nmcajeff
08-13-2008, 12:13 PM
Sorry but I've been working a NMRA race and have been on the road since last wednesday , What's the Question?

casey patterson
08-13-2008, 11:18 PM
Sorry but I've been working a NMRA race and have been on the road since last wednesday , What's the Question?

Hi, I do have a question for you that I hope you can help with...
As fas as the manual trans questions go, are you aware of any heads up organizations that do not penalize for a manual trans- especially the clutchless models in an all motor class? As Im sure you know in your own org. (NMCA pro stock ) has a 200 lb penalty for a clutchless, the rules don't really clarify if it is a non clutchless ( that I have seen ), NMRA has a 175 lb penalty for manual ( clutchless or non ) and have to use a single disc clutch, RAM racing series has a 150 lb penalty. These are just a few of the closest classes to the all motor lsx series to use as an example.
As you may know, and as many people and orgs. realize, you can shift a faceplated trans clutchless, and the jerico also in question IS a clutchless trans. I know Robin may have his own opinions on shifting a faceplated trans clutchless, but I assure you that we can make a faceplate trans easier to shift and hold up to shift them clutchless. Yes a standard faceplate set up will still shift clutchless but may have durability issues depending on hp and rpm, but they can also be very easily modified to handle this type of use.
Seems like I can type for pages about this subject, but, I guess the real question on most of the racers minds is how are these manual transmissions allowed with no penelty?? A properly set up manual trans/clutch is hands down a faster trans than an automatic trans. I'm sure nobody here wants to scream favoritism, but why not make it a level playing field?? If you are going to allow one clutchless trans why not allow them all?? Or since most manual trans. can be shifted clutchless nowdays penalize them all?
The stock gear spacing theory really holds no water here, a clutchless is a clutchless, there are No factory gears in those transmissions.
My husband ( Kevin Patterson, last years all motor winner ) is considering putting a manual trans in the car he is racing this year, just to take advantage of having a clutchless without a weight penelty, but before we do we want to make sure if the rules are going to change or not. It is sad to say but there is a clear advantage there and not everybody has the options to run such a trans.
I am writing this on my own away from my work, but if you or Robin L. would like to discuss or have any other questions about a manual trans I would be glad to discuss this with you at work, and if I do not know the answer to a particular question there will be someone readily available to answer.

Thanks for your ear, and I hope you will answer these questions for all that are concerned.
Casey Patterson
Liberty's Gears 1-313-278-4040

Robin L
08-14-2008, 06:05 PM
Guys and Gals

Heavy sigh...... OK first off I didn't make the rules. How is that for a cop out? The rules were determined by a group last year. They have had little change and really I like that part. I cannot answer the thinking behind some of the rules. I know how I feel but that doesn't change anything. If the rules favor a combination then I say go for it. As Casey and Kevin pointed out you can modify a face plate transmission to shift without a clutch. Again I stress they are not as reliable as a good old Liberty Equalizer clutchless 5 speed.

The rules don't prohibit shifting without a clutch. THey don't prohibit trick Ace 2 or 3 dick clutches. They limit the type of transmission as far as the OEM design. Yes your going to stuff them full of trick gears.
So if the stick has an advantage, so what....... run a stick!

The normal proceedure if you want to deviate from the rules is to write up a rules change proposal. The forms are on the NMCA site (I think).

I can't respond to every question that asks about combinations that don't fit the rules. I will attempt to clarify if you have questions.

Hope this helps.

Robin

Codefive
08-16-2008, 05:21 AM
Thank you all for your input. It was refreshing to see that there is still some interest out there. I hope this years brings out some more cars!

Darren, dont let it sit, bring that ride and race!

Regarding the transmission issue, I just want to clarify ... I wasnt trying to make a fus over what is or is not legal but rather, as Casey said very well, make note of "a level laying field". This class has been dubbed "The Engine Builder's Class". OK ... so if a guy is a good engine builder and makes 1000HP and runs an automatic, the car will most likely go as fast or slower then one making significantly less HP w/ a stick. Its just a plain fact. The better engine builder dosnt win. Now we're racing check books, not talent. I know ... Speed costs, how fast do want to spend? but ... every other org adds weight to manuals to create a "level playing field". I wish I had the extra coin, I'd have a stick in the car in no time but after being stuck with the engine to start with and being a workin man myself, I just cant swing it this year. Maybe next year, but I still think they should carry weight ... WAIT ... let me rephrase that, I already have to weigh 3425# ... maybe they should give a weight break to Automatics. lol. That raises another question ... Why are the weights so high? Hauling weight is hard on parts. If this is in fact an "engine builder's class", why make the base weight so heavy? I know a few of the cars there last year had to add a significant amount of weight to be legal.

Thanks again everyone for all of your input. I hope to see more cars as we get closer to the event.

GIZMO
08-16-2008, 07:08 PM
Darren, dont let it sit, bring that ride and race!

I've run out of time to mess with this. There is no way that I could get anything together in time.

Just so that you don't think that I was blowing smoke on this......

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k54/gumplt1/IMG_0831.jpg