Tuning Gurus... something seem a little off to you?
08-27-2008, 01:06 AM
#1
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Tuning Gurus... something seem a little off to you? Just curious, finished heads and cam a while back and finally got it on the dyno. Sub par numbers in my opinion, but i'm not sure where to start as far as a diagnostic goes.
Modifications:
Lid
LS6 Intake
PP LS6 style heads (243s)
228/232 @ ~.600 on 112 (Comp XER)
Longtubes
3.73 rear
Injectors
Factory 10 bolt
All supporting mods (for heads and cam)
Humidity was around 70% and over 70 degrees outside.
Should i call BS on something?
Modifications:
Lid
LS6 Intake
PP LS6 style heads (243s)
228/232 @ ~.600 on 112 (Comp XER)
Longtubes
3.73 rear
Injectors
Factory 10 bolt
All supporting mods (for heads and cam)
Humidity was around 70% and over 70 degrees outside.
Should i call BS on something?
08-27-2008, 11:04 AM
#3
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Yeah, pretty much everything needed. I dunno why i started there, the tuner just kinda took over... it was a dynojet by the way. I'll try and get the other info like timing and whatnot.
Again, i'm still fairly new to all this... i mean i did my homework as far as what parts work well together and the general basics of putting everything together.. . but i'm not so hot on the technicalities.
Total timing: ?
Compression Ratio: no idea
Fuel: Yeah, premium
Again, i'm still fairly new to all this... i mean i did my homework as far as what parts work well together and the general basics of putting everything together.. . but i'm not so hot on the technicalities.
Total timing: ?
Compression Ratio: no idea
Fuel: Yeah, premium
Last edited by Vrbas; 08-27-2008 at 12:38 PM.
08-27-2008, 11:13 AM
#4
He means ignition advance, like was it at 28 degrees at WOT? Also, if you can post the scan while it made that 380 run, it would really help. 
Sometimes the throttle body is not fully opened, it has happened.
Sometimes the throttle body is not fully opened, it has happened. 
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08-28-2008, 07:14 PM
#8
28 degrees at WOT. A/F is 13-1. Your numbers do seem a little low compared to other cars we have tuned. We recently tuned an LS1 car with a small cam and stock heads that made the same power you made.
Keep in mind that after Brian installed your cam and heads the first time, you opted to take the car to someone else for a "street tune" after driving the car untuned and you ended up blowing a head gasket. (There may have been some damage done there?) Brian then replaced that blown head gasket for very little labor actually losing money.
Also keep in mind that when many people use the term "cam only" when referring to their HP numbers, they mean "every mod under the sun except heads" so its hard to judge sometimes.
The numbers are what they are. your A/F is spot on and its got all the timing in it that it can safely take.
If you have an issue, its not in the tune.
We will do anything we can to make you a happy customer, but understand....no one can guarantee dyno numbers, especially after a car has blown a head gasket due to a not so spiffy first tune. Let us know if we can help.
Thanks
Jeff
Keep in mind that after Brian installed your cam and heads the first time, you opted to take the car to someone else for a "street tune" after driving the car untuned and you ended up blowing a head gasket. (There may have been some damage done there?) Brian then replaced that blown head gasket for very little labor actually losing money.
Also keep in mind that when many people use the term "cam only" when referring to their HP numbers, they mean "every mod under the sun except heads" so its hard to judge sometimes.
The numbers are what they are. your A/F is spot on and its got all the timing in it that it can safely take.
If you have an issue, its not in the tune.
We will do anything we can to make you a happy customer, but understand....no one can guarantee dyno numbers, especially after a car has blown a head gasket due to a not so spiffy first tune. Let us know if we can help.
Thanks
Jeff
Last edited by Jeff@SpectacleSolutions; 08-28-2008 at 07:20 PM.
08-28-2008, 07:31 PM
#9
^^Its always the tuners fault, you know that Jeff. 
Theres too many variables in this line of work, to be able to account for an unknown loss of power, without a **** load of testing. Its just that, unknown. Yes, it probably should make more. Is it making vacuum up top? Is the compression too low? Is the cam not in where its supposed to be? Is it a partial combination of several things?'
Is the owner, the OP willing to spend $$ for hours of diagnostic time to figure it out?
AAAHHH, the joys of building HP cars for a living. Every time one doesnt make what it should, cars owners look to the tuner like we should automatically figure it out. I've spent DAYS sorting out problems in cars, just to be able to TUNE THEM CORRECTLY.
Sorry, rant off\
disclaimer
This is not at all an attack on either the tuner, shop owner, nor the OP. Just my ramblings.
Theres too many variables in this line of work, to be able to account for an unknown loss of power, without a **** load of testing. Its just that, unknown. Yes, it probably should make more. Is it making vacuum up top? Is the compression too low? Is the cam not in where its supposed to be? Is it a partial combination of several things?'
Is the owner, the OP willing to spend $$ for hours of diagnostic time to figure it out?
AAAHHH, the joys of building HP cars for a living. Every time one doesnt make what it should, cars owners look to the tuner like we should automatically figure it out. I've spent DAYS sorting out problems in cars, just to be able to TUNE THEM CORRECTLY.
Sorry, rant off\
disclaimer
This is not at all an attack on either the tuner, shop owner, nor the OP. Just my ramblings.
08-28-2008, 07:39 PM
#10
no offense taken at all Ed. And for the record, Im not attacking the OP either. Im just stating a few facts that were left out.
as a shop, we are new. weve been open since March....but this aint our first rodeo.
Ive been doing some searches since I saw this thread and have found some 402 builds that made 450 or less. Brians made 480+. does that mean we are magicians and those other tuners are idiots? nope. It just means there are other issues that need to be addressed.
Jordan, you are a good customer and we value your business. We will check out anything you want us to check out but as Ed stated....that stuff costs money.
Let us know if we can help.
as a shop, we are new. weve been open since March....but this aint our first rodeo.
Ive been doing some searches since I saw this thread and have found some 402 builds that made 450 or less. Brians made 480+. does that mean we are magicians and those other tuners are idiots? nope. It just means there are other issues that need to be addressed.
Jordan, you are a good customer and we value your business. We will check out anything you want us to check out but as Ed stated....that stuff costs money.
Let us know if we can help.
08-28-2008, 07:57 PM
#12
FWIW, I would check for vacuum at WOT, in the upper RPMs, and exhaust back pressure. If you dont have an exhaust back pressure gauge (every shop should have one, only about 75 bucks from snappy) just drop the exhaust and make a pull.
I would also suggest you both agree on a set amount of money to be charged (start at 1 hour. I usually start at 2). At that point, once you've spent the agreed on amount of money (read:time) apprise the customer of your findings, and discuss where to go from there.
I've been a diagnostic specialist for the better part of 16 years. Got a pretty good handle on how to treat customers in these situations.
FREE DIAGNOSTIC has always been a dirty word around here. Gotta pay for the bazillion dollars in high tech diagnostic tools, and of course the knowledge base.
Good luck to both. Jeff if you need any help, lemme know.
08-28-2008, 09:11 PM
#13
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Vrbas- Those are low numbers especially for a M6. I ran a similar cam and the old PP heads back in 04 with mid length headers and a 3800 stall. That setup dyno'd 394 rwhp with a locked converter on a Dynojet. On a similar note, do you have any experienced car buddies or maybe local local enthusiasts who can help you work the bugs out? It can be overwhelming at first, but the end result is always well worth it.
08-29-2008, 11:07 AM
#14
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I'm not bashing either the tune or the labor... i'm simply at a lost that I've spent a good amount of money (for my stage in life) for results and am seeing under what people are netting for 1.5k less than i've spent on parts. TO ME, it just doesn't make sense, but then again i'm not a mechanic so what validity does my opinion hold, other than the extremely large numbers of testimonies that have similar if not the same as my setup. I understand "every car is different", but for some reason that just isn't flying in this case when you have stock heads netting better power than this.
Last edited by Vrbas; 08-29-2008 at 11:25 AM.
08-29-2008, 11:43 AM
#15
I'm not bashing either the tune or the labor... i'm simply at a lost that I've spent a good amount of money (for my stage in life) for results and am seeing under what people are netting for 1.5k less than i've spent on parts. TO ME, it just doesn't make sense, but then again i'm not a mechanic so what validity does my opinion hold, other than the extremely large numbers of testimonies that have similar if not the same as my setup. I understand "every car is different", but for some reason that just isn't flying in this case when you have stock heads netting better power than this.
as I stated above Jordan, We recently tuned an SS with a small cam and stock heads that made the same power you are making. I cant explain it anymore than you can.
I can only again mention that you originally drove the car untuned before taking it to some other dude to have a cheaper street tune put on it, causing you to blow a head gasket that brian repaired for a very, very reduced rate.
Also, who did the port work on the heads? what were the flow numbers on the heads? Youve been asked what is your compression ratio and you cant even tell us that information?
I would suggest doing some research on your own set up before claiming its a problem with the tune.
We are more than happy to help in any way we can....just as Brian was more than happy to replace a blown head gasket that was the result of someone elses tune and do it for a third of what normal shops would charge.
08-29-2008, 11:49 AM
#16
I'm not bashing either the tune or the labor... i'm simply at a lost that I've spent a good amount of money (for my stage in life) for results and am seeing under what people are netting for 1.5k less than i've spent on parts. TO ME, it just doesn't make sense, but then again i'm not a mechanic so what validity does my opinion hold, other than the extremely large numbers of testimonies that have similar if not the same as my setup. I understand "every car is different", but for some reason that just isn't flying in this case when you have stock heads netting better power than this.
That being said, you'll have to pay someone to figure it out, whether it be them, or another shop, so I would at least give them the opportunity.
I'm sure everyone has built cars that have made less than expected. If you do this long enough, you're going to build ones that disappoint.
08-29-2008, 12:12 PM
#18
A little while ago I had a cammed car gain only 5 rwhp and 7-8 rwtq after moving from a set of stock heads to a set of "ls6 style" Patriot heads...
I found out later he blamed me for it. He took it two other shops and had it retuned. the second "toon" gave him a supposed +25hp over my calibration. When he finally got it to the track, guess what... He was down just over a MPH in a similar DA to after my work. A little more time went by and he called me back and asked if I could reflash his PCM. At first he wouldn't give any details of it and finally he told me it had been retuned twice and it drove like crap after his last all-dyno (IFR raped) tune, the one that supposedly picked up 25hp. I reflashed it for him for FREE. I tried to help him look into his setup, but all he cared about was that others on LS1tech made more with the "same" combo, and that he had spent enough money and that it should just be there. He couldn't even tell me what CC the chambers on the heads were, but he "knew" it should have made more. He spent a couple of months telling people that I had done a crappy job tuning his car too, before bringing it back to me. I know because word gets around...
I found out later he blamed me for it. He took it two other shops and had it retuned. the second "toon" gave him a supposed +25hp over my calibration. When he finally got it to the track, guess what... He was down just over a MPH in a similar DA to after my work. A little more time went by and he called me back and asked if I could reflash his PCM. At first he wouldn't give any details of it and finally he told me it had been retuned twice and it drove like crap after his last all-dyno (IFR raped) tune, the one that supposedly picked up 25hp. I reflashed it for him for FREE. I tried to help him look into his setup, but all he cared about was that others on LS1tech made more with the "same" combo, and that he had spent enough money and that it should just be there. He couldn't even tell me what CC the chambers on the heads were, but he "knew" it should have made more. He spent a couple of months telling people that I had done a crappy job tuning his car too, before bringing it back to me. I know because word gets around...
08-29-2008, 12:28 PM
#20
A little while ago I had a cammed car gain only 5 rwhp and 7-8 rwtq after moving from a set of stock heads to a set of "ls6 style" Patriot heads...
I found out later he blamed me for it. He took it two other shops and had it retuned. the second "toon" gave him a supposed +25hp over my calibration. When he finally got it to the track, guess what... He was down just over a MPH in a similar DA to after my work. A little more time went by and he called me back and asked if I could reflash his PCM. At first he wouldn't give any details of it and finally he told me it had been retuned twice and it drove like crap after his last all-dyno (IFR raped) tune, the one that supposedly picked up 25hp. I reflashed it for him for FREE. I tried to help him look into his setup, but all he cared about was that others on LS1tech made more with the "same" combo, and that he had spent enough money and that it should just be there. He couldn't even tell me what CC the chambers on the heads were, but he "knew" it should have made more. He spent a couple of months telling people that I had done a crappy job tuning his car too, before bringing it back to me. I know because word gets around...
I found out later he blamed me for it. He took it two other shops and had it retuned. the second "toon" gave him a supposed +25hp over my calibration. When he finally got it to the track, guess what... He was down just over a MPH in a similar DA to after my work. A little more time went by and he called me back and asked if I could reflash his PCM. At first he wouldn't give any details of it and finally he told me it had been retuned twice and it drove like crap after his last all-dyno (IFR raped) tune, the one that supposedly picked up 25hp. I reflashed it for him for FREE. I tried to help him look into his setup, but all he cared about was that others on LS1tech made more with the "same" combo, and that he had spent enough money and that it should just be there. He couldn't even tell me what CC the chambers on the heads were, but he "knew" it should have made more. He spent a couple of months telling people that I had done a crappy job tuning his car too, before bringing it back to me. I know because word gets around...
