Generation IV Internal Engine - my 402 is almost finished, any advice?

I just finished installing and torquing my rockers.. after the bolts were hand tight I made sure there was no freeplay in the pushrods on Piston#1 and then we torqued the rockers to 21ft lbs... I used no loctite or anti sieze on the bolts.. I reused my old LS1 pedistools.. and I think my pushrod length is fine at 7.400" with my custom cam, 63cc 862 casting heads and LS7 lifters...

anything im missing?

I made sure the lifter rollers worked fine, soaked them.. I cleaned my pushrods in solvent and dired them, used camlube on both tips.. used cam lube on valve stem and rocker tip (same contact area).. cleaved rockers in solvent before and dried them as well with compressed air... oil pump o ring isnt pinched. windage tray bolts I used loctite(the bolts are near the end of the studs) because we used 2 washers to space it, because the stroker crank wasnt clearing...and hammered the rest of the windage tray out to clear it

we cleaned the surface area of the deck and heads before using a gasket, I reused a few head bolts because texas speed sent some wrong length ones to me...(I know this is bad, but I plan on getting studs sooner or later and I used some stronger torque on the used bolts..) I know I learned in automotive class that bolts lose a certain percentage of stretch, so Its not that bad...

i just wanna be sure everything is okay before I finish this motor, this is why Im asking if I skipped any important steps or if anyone has advice..

thanks..

Im not so sure about re-using the head bolts. Scoggin Dickey has them for pretty cheap, and i would make sure im using all new ones. after all that work if something happens because you cut one cheap easy corner that would really suck. but thats just my $.02

I just finished installing and torquing my rockers.. after the bolts were hand tight I made sure there was no freeplay in the pushrods on Piston#1 and then we torqued the rockers to 21ft lbs... I used no loctite or anti sieze on the bolts.. I reused my old LS1 pedistools.. and I think my pushrod length is fine at 7.400" with my custom cam, 63cc 862 casting heads and LS7 lifters...

anything im missing?

I made sure the lifter rollers worked fine, soaked them.. I cleaned my pushrods in solvent and dired them, used camlube on both tips.. used cam lube on valve stem and rocker tip (same contact area).. cleaved rockers in solvent before and dried them as well with compressed air... oil pump o ring isnt pinched. windage tray bolts I used loctite(the bolts are near the end of the studs) because we used 2 washers to space it, because the stroker crank wasnt clearing...and hammered the rest of the windage tray out to clear it

we cleaned the surface area of the deck and heads before using a gasket, I reused a few head bolts because texas speed sent some wrong length ones to me...(I know this is bad, but I plan on getting studs sooner or later and I used some stronger torque on the used bolts..) I know I learned in automotive class that bolts lose a certain percentage of stretch, so Its not that bad...

i just wanna be sure everything is okay before I finish this motor, this is why Im asking if I skipped any important steps or if anyone has advice..

thanks..

You really should not have reused the head bolt. They are torque-to yield, and are only good for one use - because they are stretched enough to deform them permanently when installed.

thats what I said, but "unknown sources" have reused them and for multiple customers and have had no issues..

I also felt the same way, but an experienced builder, knows they are torque to yeild bolts, but said there shouldnt be major issues..

edit:

Also, I know what torque to yeild means, but it doesnt make any sense, if they thread in just fine, they should have decent holding power and restretch in the threading, if Im not mistaken bolts reused are 80% good still, the 2nd time (the % number could be wrong, but it was something of that nature)


Id also like to know of some examples of people reusing Torque to yeild headbolts and what type of issues they have encountered...

besides, I would replace them but now that pushrods and rockers are torqued, would it make a difference if I took off the headbolts and put new ones, or do I have to go with the whole process again?

you shouldnt have to. just pull the old ones out and and put the new ones in

you shouldnt have to. just pull the old ones out and and put the new ones in

then I may just do this, does any local place have any, id like to have em in by friday. :(

edit:

besides the bolts, any other thing I should have done before or during or I should do after my installs? rocker, pushrod, etc??

well I want an experienced engine builder to give me his opinion, if possible. Yes I shouldnt reuse the bolts, but whats the worst that can happen or what is likely to happen if I use a few old ones...

per head the large 10 bolts, 8 are used, 2 are new... the top 5 smaller bolts are also new.

The worst that could happen is that you blow a head gasket, leak coolant into the cylinders and nade the entire engine. Will that happen? Who knows?

If you spent a lot of time and money on this engine, there is no reason to half ass it at the end. That's my opinion, and I'm not trying to be mean, but trying to save you some cash and heartache.

The worst that could happen is that you blow a head gasket, leak coolant into the cylinders and nade the entire engine. Will that happen? Who knows?

If you spent a lot of time and money on this engine, there is no reason to half ass it at the end. That's my opinion, and I'm not trying to be mean, but trying to save you some cash and heartache.

I totally understand it, but I dont think a headbolt is gonna break just because it has been used. we have learned the way torque works on a bolt is it stretches it, so when you torque a used bolt harder next time , it will almost have the same holding capacity, which is exactly what we did...and we also used this sticky material on the gaskets, i forgot what its called.

edit:

and remeber, Im not running the engine yet, but I am asking people what knowledge they have of me reusing the bolts and what experiences they have... and if anyone could tell me theyve ran used bolts and hasd no issues, it will give me more confidence in my setup..and of course the original topic, which was if i have done everything properly in my valvetrain so far...

edit #2

The only reason Im arguing the bolt issue is because many times people say dont use it because thats all theyve heard. I wanna see if anyone can step in and say they actually have reused them and had no issues.. thats what Im waiting for, if no one says yes, then I may go and buy studs or something from the local shop..

Trust me, don't reuse the old bolts. Even if you don't leak coolant into the cylinders, if you get enough coolant into the oil, you will fry your bearings, and there you go, will need a complete rebuild. Listen to everyone on here. DON"T REUSE THEM. You WILL leak coolant after a few hundred miles, it just depends on where it goes.

um why not have tsp next day the right ones too you??? I personally wouldnt do something half way when 1. i payed for new ones, and 2. i have a lot of money and time into it.

Okay fine Im gonna get new ones, because no one here has used old ones, and although I generally dont worry, Im not gonna risk it, especially because I had my old LS1 fail on me(but thats a whole other story).. so what happens to old bolts? trash? or can they be used for something?

anyways, Im gonna go with a complete set of new bolts, maybe I might as well get studs, so I dont have to ever replace em now and then..

Okay fine Im gonna get new ones, because no one here has used old ones, and although I generally dont worry, Im not gonna risk it, especially because I had my old LS1 fail on me(but thats a whole other story).. so what happens to old bolts? trash? or can they be used for something?

anyways, Im gonna go with a complete set of new bolts, maybe I might as well get studs, so I dont have to ever replace em now and then..

Good news dude, you really made the smart choice by deciding to replace them. ARP bolts are a good option in terms of re-usability. Studs are nice, but pretty expensive.

Make sure you order the right bolt kit - some have different length bolts, and it depends on what year block you have (I think that's why you got wrong length ones before).

Old bolts are good for the trash...or better, recycling :)

Okay fine Im gonna get new ones, because no one here has used old ones, and although I generally dont worry, Im not gonna risk it, especially because I had my old LS1 fail on me(but thats a whole other story).. so what happens to old bolts? trash? or can they be used for something?

anyways, Im gonna go with a complete set of new bolts, maybe I might as well get studs, so I dont have to ever replace em now and then..


Wise decision, like already stated no since in cutting corners when you have put so much time and effort and dollars into the build only to cut a corner and casue the bearings to go bad and have to rebuild. So in the long run you are actually saving yourself money if you look at it fromt he right standpoint

No further recommendations??

OK then, now I just need advice for what intake to use..

I ordered ARP studs and they should be in on wed or thurs..

Having many hours of structural engineering courses under my belt, I can certainly appreciate the meaning of "torque to yield."

Bottom line is, BUY NEW BOLTS!

Google yield point and you'll understand why these bolts should not be re-used.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yield_(engineering)

Yield is the point at which a material's strength nearly flattens on the curve, RIGHT BEFORE the material deforms plastically... and I've seen bolts pulled to yield and it's wild to watch... they actually decrease in diameter right before they snap.

SO, once you have torqued a bolt to it's yield you have deformed it.... and it only deforms once....

Got it now?

So tell your "master engine builders" to read a book sometime instead of swearing by on the job training for every instance.

Thank you and drive through.

Having many hours of structural engineering courses under my belt, I can certainly appreciate the meaning of "torque to yield."

Bottom line is, BUY NEW BOLTS!

Google yield point and you'll understand why these bolts should not be re-used.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yield_(engineering)

Yield is the point at which a material's strength nearly flattens on the curve, RIGHT BEFORE the material deforms plastically... and I've seen bolts pulled to yield and it's wild to watch... they actually decrease in diameter right before they snap.

SO, once you have torqued a bolt to it's yield you have deformed it.... and it only deforms once....

Got it now?

So tell your "master engine builders" to read a book sometime instead of swearing by on the job training for every instance.

Thank you and drive through.


Hey man, thanks all I wanted was someone with engine building experience to give me his opinion.

I alreayd ordered ARP studs. any suggestions on how to install them?

BTW no disrespect , but what is I were to say a person I knew built engines with used TTY bolts, not just one but many (in the double digits) and has never heard a problem in over a 1 year period... Im not saying if this is entirely true or false. But if I were to tell you a story like that, would you believe it?

Hey man, thanks all I wanted was someone with engine building experience to give me his opinion.

I alreayd ordered ARP studs. any suggestions on how to install them?

BTW no disrespect , but what is I were to say a person I knew built engines with used TTY bolts, not just one but many (in the double digits) and has never heard a problem in over a 1 year period... Im not saying if this is entirely true or false. But if I were to tell you a story like that, would you believe it?

You'll always have those stories of the guy "who did it."

I'm just telling you from a materials standpoint that the stock bolts are only good (designed) for ONE install.

I'm glad you've got studs coming.... good choice.

We're all just here to keep each other in check man... haha.

Good luck!

Instead of taking the rockers and heads back off, just do 1 stud at a time. You can use an allen wrench to tighten them in the block, then pop the washer and nut on and torque away.

Good your going with the studs.

I took the rockers off anyways... The bolts came out, cleaned the threads with brake cleaner then blown out with compressed air, then put the studs in, red loctite thinly applied down the bolt.

and hand tight.. the washer flat side facing down on the head, torqued to 65ftlb, then 75 on 2nd pass... middle towards out sequence...

doooood, you put loctite on the studs?!

Did you read the directions from ARP? You're not supposed to use loctite on the head studs. Infact you're supposed to use the ARP molylube on both sides (a generous amount at that) and torque to 75 ftlbs. Also, if this is the first time torquing the studs, you're supposed to torque them, back them off, then torque them three times to beakin the threads, and make sure you're getting full clamping force.

doooood, you put loctite on the studs?!

Did you read the directions from ARP? You're not supposed to use loctite on the head studs. Infact you're supposed to use the ARP molylube on both sides (a generous amount at that) and torque to 75 ftlbs. Also, if this is the first time torquing the studs, you're supposed to torque them, back them off, then torque them three times to beakin the threads, and make sure you're getting full clamping force.

i read the instructions.

ediT: I dont think there will be a problem, and its a brand new motor with no heat cycle yet, so I think im fine

i read the instructions.

ediT: I dont think there will be a problem, and its a brand new motor with no heat cycle yet, so I think im fine

I'm pretty sure it says right on the instructions to use the moly-lube or 10w30 weight motor oil on the studs (i don't have the instructions handy at the moment). They're going to be stuck in the block now, and a simple allen wrench may not be able to get them out. I had a stud get stuck in the block, and I had to use a stud remover, cause an allen wrench just broke, and the two nut trick didn't work. Trashed the stud and had to get a replacement.

Also, its a good thing you don't have any heat cycles yet. The studs need to be retorqued several times to break in the threads. If that is not done, then you're running the risk of the studs not being torqued down fully, and getting a complete clamping force.

Lastly, make sure you re-torque the heads after a few heat cycles, preferably after a full nights cool down, the studs may loosen up on you.....don't ask me how I know... :bang:

Yeah I would say that locktite was a big mistake to. Will pyobalby never be able to get the heads off without taking the heater box out, or pulling the motor. Reason I say that is that you have to take out a couple of studs on the passenger side head closest to the firewall for the heads to come off the motor...at least that was my experience.

Yeah I would say that locktite was a big mistake to. Will pyobalby never be able to get the heads off without taking the heater box out, or pulling the motor. Reason I say that is that you have to take out a couple of studs on the passenger side head closest to the firewall for the heads to come off the motor...at least that was my experience.



Not at all, I just recently took my heads off and put them back on with all of the studs installed. The only problem that I can forsee is when someone wants to clean the deck of the block, it makes life a lot easier to be able to remove the studs. Otherwise, it really shouldn't be a problem unless for some reason the studs need to be removed.

yeah I've heard of alot of people taking heads of while in the car, but in my case it was just easier to to unscrew a few studs and pull them through the top of the head. This is with a ls2 block, don't know if that makes any difference or not?

I'm pretty sure it says right on the instructions to use the moly-lube or 10w30 weight motor oil on the studs (i don't have the instructions handy at the moment). They're going to be stuck in the block now, and a simple allen wrench may not be able to get them out. I had a stud get stuck in the block, and I had to use a stud remover, cause an allen wrench just broke, and the two nut trick didn't work. Trashed the stud and had to get a replacement.

Also, its a good thing you don't have any heat cycles yet. The studs need to be retorqued several times to break in the threads. If that is not done, then you're running the risk of the studs not being torqued down fully, and getting a complete clamping force.

Lastly, make sure you re-torque the heads after a few heat cycles, preferably after a full nights cool down, the studs may loosen up on you.....don't ask me how I know... :bang:


so should I retorque them now? or after a few heat cycles?

If you have only torqued them once, then you need to re-torque them two more times, in the same sequence as usual, this will break-in the threads.

Once you have run the vehicle, a few heat cycles (preferrably one), you then need to go back and retorque ONE more time after a heat cycle to insure that the studs stayed in place once everything warmed up and cooled down.

Trust me, I understand this is a COMPLETE pain in the ass because you have to pull off the valvecovers/rockers, and drop the headers (dont' worry about the top 5 studs so the intake can stay on...), but trust me, please do this. This will guarantee that the studs have seated properly, and that your gaskets have sealed up completely. Otherwise you run the risk of coolant in the oil and trashing your bearings.

When you re-torque, just back the nut off, and then return it to full torque, in the torque sequence.

If you have only torqued them once, then you need to re-torque them two more times, in the same sequence as usual, this will break-in the threads.

Once you have run the vehicle, a few heat cycles (preferrably one), you then need to go back and retorque ONE more time after a heat cycle to insure that the studs stayed in place once everything warmed up and cooled down.

Trust me, I understand this is a COMPLETE pain in the ass because you have to pull off the valvecovers/rockers, and drop the headers (dont' worry about the top 5 studs so the intake can stay on...), but trust me, please do this. This will guarantee that the studs have seated properly, and that your gaskets have sealed up completely. Otherwise you run the risk of coolant in the oil and trashing your bearings.

When you re-torque, just back the nut off, and then return it to full torque, in the torque sequence.

so when I torque it, back the nut off, then re torque it right?

because I went over the torque 2 times alreayd, but never backed off the nut.

Oh yea, you have to back the nut off, and then torque it back to spec. Do that twice, then you're good.

Once you have one or a few heat cycles, do one more re-torque, and you're done. Just keep an eye on the coolant and make sure it isn't disappearing.

It says nothing in the ARP instructions to retque the nuts btw, but it mentions to not put red loctite, unless i want to take the studs back out one day, but from what I understand it says to torque the nuts on the studs then remove, apply loctite , then torque with the loctite (thats what I understood)

It does not say anywhere in the instructions to use loctite, so maybe you meant the lube. You're supposed to use the lube on the studs as they go in the block AND on the nut when it goes on the stud, and torque to 75ftlbs.

As far as the re-torquing, yes, you need to torque the nut on the stud, like the instructions say, but do it three times to ensure a total breakin of the threads (most engine builders do this). You can do this now before you start-up by just backing off one nut at a time and retorquing.

After a heat cycle, you must retorque the heads one last time to make sure that none of them backed off. If you don't want to do this part, thats up to you if you want to risk it, but I'm just informing you on how its supposed to be done. You can either do it right, or you can do it half-right; of course thats up to you.

I will tell you though, that after running a few heat cycles, I had to retorque, and some of the nuts/studs did back off slightly, so you have a very high chance of it happening. Whether it happens for you at 1 mile or 8k miles is unknown.

It does not say anywhere in the instructions to use loctite, so maybe you meant the lube. You're supposed to use the lube on the studs as they go in the block AND on the nut when it goes on the stud, and torque to 75ftlbs.

As far as the re-torquing, yes, you need to torque the nut on the stud, like the instructions say, but do it three times to ensure a total breakin of the threads (most engine builders do this). You can do this now before you start-up by just backing off one nut at a time and retorquing.

After a heat cycle, you must retorque the heads one last time to make sure that none of them backed off. If you don't want to do this part, thats up to you if you want to risk it, but I'm just informing you on how its supposed to be done. You can either do it right, or you can do it half-right; of course thats up to you.

I will tell you though, that after running a few heat cycles, I had to retorque, and some of the nuts/studs did back off slightly, so you have a very high chance of it happening. Whether it happens for you at 1 mile or 8k miles is unknown.

it says loctite is ok to use, if you plan on not taking the studs off.... It says to use RP moly lube or oil at the end, but in the middle area(I think) it explains how if you will use loctite, you should use it after the first torquing( I think thats what it means, its not in those exact words)



Im not saying what you are saying is wrong, im just mentioning that it didnt say so in teh instructions...

Not a problem! Just emphasizing the need for re-torquing of the studs after a few heat cycles, it is crucial even though it doesn't say it in the instructions, it needs to be done.

Let us know when you fire her up!!
Adrian

Not a problem! Just emphasizing the need for re-torquing of the studs after a few heat cycles, it is crucial even though it doesn't say it in the instructions, it needs to be done.

Let us know when you fire her up!!
Adrian

Also I noticed why you are emphasizing this "re torquing" because I just read your thread about coolant and oil mixing...

On a side note, what cam do you have?

Exactly! I'm just trying to help other not have the problems I did :)

On a side note, what cam do you have?

TR
238/244 113 +2 LSA .613 lifts

it says loctite is ok to use, if you plan on not taking the studs off.... It says to use RP moly lube or oil at the end, but in the middle area(I think) it explains how if you will use loctite, you should use it after the first torquing( I think thats what it means, its not in those exact words)



Im not saying what you are saying is wrong, im just mentioning that it didnt say so in teh instructions...

Did they mention the loctite as being loctite 592 thread sealer or high strength red loctite? I bet they were wanting you to use the loctite 592thread sealer, atleast that is was how I read it for the ARP head bolts.

Did they mention the loctite as being loctite 592 thread sealer or high strength red loctite? I bet they were wanting you to use the loctite 592thread sealer, atleast that is was how I read it for the ARP head bolts.

im unsure, I dunno why ( I dont have the instructions handy) but why do I have a feeling I saw the mention of both in the instructions? or maybe im just crazy..

it says clearly in the arp instructions , for permanent stud installation loctite thread locker may be applied to the threads...it also says the studs must be torqued qickly before the loctite dries...
no where does it say anything about retorquing after heat cycles...as long as your torquing procedure is correct you will not run into problems...

it says clearly in the arp instructions , for permanent stud installation loctite thread locker may be applied to the threads...it also says the studs must be torqued qickly before the loctite dries...
no where does it say anything about retorquing after heat cycles...as long as your torquing procedure is correct you will not run into problems...


YOU MUST RE-TORQUE THE HEADS. PERIOD

YOU MUST RE-TORQUE THE HEADS. PERIOD

use your tools properly... period