98 Cobra...LS1 or LS2?
09-28-2008, 08:57 PM
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Staging Lane
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98 Cobra...LS1 or LS2? My wife overheated my 330whp/480 nitrous stock longblock'd 98 Cobra. I seriously considered finally doing the Terminator swap I've been wanting to over the winter, but I'm looking at $12000 just to do the forged longblock the way I want to...before trans, fuel system, blower, tuning, rear, suspension, etc.
The idea came up of a LSX, and I really don't care, a motor is a motor. It's a street/road course car, so it makes sense. For now, either a LS1 or a LS2 with a T56 is going in. I'm going to keep it cable clutch, put a decent clutch in it, Kooks headers, and AJE K member but otherwise no bells and whistles.
I WILL BE building the motor in the future, whether it is just heads/cam/intake or a turbocharger and a forged bottom end. I need to get the car running again so I'm out of the depression cycle, get the car back on the track and get some suspension stuff sorted out first.
That being said, I'd really like to go with a LS2 out of say a GTO, but they seem to be more expensive than the older, smaller cubic inch LS1s. I'm going to need a fully dressed motor (I'm keeping P/S, A/C, etc).
Which motor is going to leave me the most aftermarket parts availability in the future? LS1? LS2? truck 6.0? Basically, when I come back to this, I want to be able to crack open a catalog and find myself a head cam intake easy as pie. I respect the guys doing it on a budget and using this motor stock head with this and that and piecing it together, but I'm too lazy and too simple.
The idea came up of a LSX, and I really don't care, a motor is a motor. It's a street/road course car, so it makes sense. For now, either a LS1 or a LS2 with a T56 is going in. I'm going to keep it cable clutch, put a decent clutch in it, Kooks headers, and AJE K member but otherwise no bells and whistles.
I WILL BE building the motor in the future, whether it is just heads/cam/intake or a turbocharger and a forged bottom end. I need to get the car running again so I'm out of the depression cycle, get the car back on the track and get some suspension stuff sorted out first.
That being said, I'd really like to go with a LS2 out of say a GTO, but they seem to be more expensive than the older, smaller cubic inch LS1s. I'm going to need a fully dressed motor (I'm keeping P/S, A/C, etc).
Which motor is going to leave me the most aftermarket parts availability in the future? LS1? LS2? truck 6.0? Basically, when I come back to this, I want to be able to crack open a catalog and find myself a head cam intake easy as pie. I respect the guys doing it on a budget and using this motor stock head with this and that and piecing it together, but I'm too lazy and too simple.
09-28-2008, 09:29 PM
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These motors are pretty much "modular"...4.8, 5.3, 5.7, 6.0, 6.2, 7.0...LS1/2/3/6/7, LQ4/Lq9 , lots of parts can interchange..etc etc....any motor you decide with, there is aftermarket parts availability for all....
I will be doing a similar swap into my 95 over the winter hopefully....I think I will be going with an LQ4 which is a 6.0L engine from a truck/van....and use a car intake manifold and acessories...bolted up to a TKO Tremec...
There is LOTS of great info within this forum about the engines and swaps into cars like ours....
I will be doing a similar swap into my 95 over the winter hopefully....I think I will be going with an LQ4 which is a 6.0L engine from a truck/van....and use a car intake manifold and acessories...bolted up to a TKO Tremec...
There is LOTS of great info within this forum about the engines and swaps into cars like ours....
09-28-2008, 10:17 PM
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Yeah I have been reading up a ton on SN95/Fox stuff which is supposedly identical, figuring out issues like the clutch, trans crossmember, a/c, p/s, brakes, front spring rates, etc. but I admit to knowing nearly nothing about the motors themselves, what they come from, etc. I appreciate how you said the LQ4 is from.
So if I'm going to build it in the future, it's going to be the same in the end? The big difference is just what kind of power it has in stock trim? For example, if I start with an LS1 and end up with a stroker, it would probably be the same end result as doing the same thing in a GT0 LS2?
So if I'm going to build it in the future, it's going to be the same in the end? The big difference is just what kind of power it has in stock trim? For example, if I start with an LS1 and end up with a stroker, it would probably be the same end result as doing the same thing in a GT0 LS2?
09-28-2008, 10:33 PM
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Yeah I have been reading up a ton on SN95/Fox stuff which is supposedly identical, figuring out issues like the clutch, trans crossmember, a/c, p/s, brakes, front spring rates, etc. but I admit to knowing nearly nothing about the motors themselves, what they come from, etc. I appreciate how you said the LQ4 is from.
So if I'm going to build it in the future, it's going to be the same in the end? The big difference is just what kind of power it has in stock trim? For example, if I start with an LS1 and end up with a stroker, it would probably be the same end result as doing the same thing in a GT0 LS2?
So if I'm going to build it in the future, it's going to be the same in the end? The big difference is just what kind of power it has in stock trim? For example, if I start with an LS1 and end up with a stroker, it would probably be the same end result as doing the same thing in a GT0 LS2?
Also between these blocks, some can be bored over more than others....
LS1 has a 3.9xx bore...the LS2 has a 4.00 bore...the LS3 (car 6.2l) and L92 (truck 6.2L) have a 4.030 bore....but still retain the 3.6xx stroke crankshaft....
I would suggest to pick up a few books (which is what I have done over the past few years) on these LS1 motors published by either HP Books or SA Design...lots of info there to learn and familiarize yourself with these motors BEFORE you go out an purchase a motor....
Now as far your swap goes into your 98 Cobra...dont worry about the suspension and brakes....they are more than suffiecient....just treat this swap as swapping in another motor.....
From what I have read, if you use a TKO 500 or 600 the shifter exits the same spot as in a Mustang, which is a plus since I will be doing such....
Clutch setup....you can use the stock cable type clutch setup as I will be doing....just get the proper LS1 style flywheel and clutch setup....
Quick Time Performance (http://www.quicktimeinc.com/products.html) makes an adapter bellhousing to mate an LS1 type engine to a T5 or TKO500 or TKO600 and even a T56 setup.....
You should be able to retain the hydraboost powersteering...how? Im not sure exactly, but it shouldnt be too difficult....my car is a 95 so I dont have the Hydraboost....
You should still be able to retain the AC...might need to make some new hoses coming in and out of the GM compressor....I will keep my AC in my 95...but I will figure it out when I get to that point LOL....
09-28-2008, 10:40 PM
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I am swapping to the 94/95 vacuum actuated style to solve that issue, and like you said use the Ford A/C parts with the GM compressor and have a shop make lines.
I was hoping to get the T56 with the motor and swap it to the clutch fork setup off my current T45 (part numbers match between a 98 and 03). I just have to get a clutch that works with the LS1 flywheel, a Viper 26 spline input shaft, and the fork setup. I'll go SFI scattershield on the bellhousing for piece of mind and MGW for the shifter.
Suspension and brakes, I meant as in this is my road race car, I need to invest more time in getting my torque arm, panhard bar, and coilovers installed than beefing up the new LS powerplant. I'm hoping the stock LS1 or LS2 and finishing off the suspension and brakes will be a realistic 2009 project.
An LS1 is an aluminum block, correct?
I was hoping to get the T56 with the motor and swap it to the clutch fork setup off my current T45 (part numbers match between a 98 and 03). I just have to get a clutch that works with the LS1 flywheel, a Viper 26 spline input shaft, and the fork setup. I'll go SFI scattershield on the bellhousing for piece of mind and MGW for the shifter.
Suspension and brakes, I meant as in this is my road race car, I need to invest more time in getting my torque arm, panhard bar, and coilovers installed than beefing up the new LS powerplant. I'm hoping the stock LS1 or LS2 and finishing off the suspension and brakes will be a realistic 2009 project.
An LS1 is an aluminum block, correct?
09-28-2008, 10:41 PM
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So if I'm going to build it in the future, it's going to be the same in the end? The big difference is just what kind of power it has in stock trim? For example, if I start with an LS1 and end up with a stroker, it would probably be the same end result as doing the same thing in a GT0 LS2?
To comment on this part....the LS1 is 346 cubes (5.7 with a 3.9xx bore)..the LS2 is a 364 cubes (6.0 with a 4.00 bore)....the LS2 uses LS6 (C5 ZO6) heads...
09-28-2008, 10:44 PM
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I am swapping to the 94/95 vacuum actuated style to solve that issue, and like you said use the Ford A/C parts with the GM compressor and have a shop make lines.
I was hoping to get the T56 with the motor and swap it to the clutch fork setup off my current T45 (part numbers match between a 98 and 03). I just have to get a clutch that works with the LS1 flywheel, a Viper 26 spline input shaft, and the fork setup. I'll go SFI scattershield on the bellhousing for piece of mind and MGW for the shifter.
Suspension and brakes, I meant as in this is my road race car, I need to invest more time in getting my torque arm, panhard bar, and coilovers installed than beefing up the new LS powerplant. I'm hoping the stock LS1 or LS2 and finishing off the suspension and brakes will be a realistic 2009 project.
An LS1 is an aluminum block, correct?
I was hoping to get the T56 with the motor and swap it to the clutch fork setup off my current T45 (part numbers match between a 98 and 03). I just have to get a clutch that works with the LS1 flywheel, a Viper 26 spline input shaft, and the fork setup. I'll go SFI scattershield on the bellhousing for piece of mind and MGW for the shifter.
Suspension and brakes, I meant as in this is my road race car, I need to invest more time in getting my torque arm, panhard bar, and coilovers installed than beefing up the new LS powerplant. I'm hoping the stock LS1 or LS2 and finishing off the suspension and brakes will be a realistic 2009 project.
An LS1 is an aluminum block, correct?
I know GMS knocks off Maximum Motorsports K-members...What are your thoughts on the GMS??
Yes, the LS1 is an aluminum block...as is the LS2 (6.0L), LS3 (6.2L), LS6 (5.7L) and LS7 (7.0L)..The truck/van engines used an iron block....
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09-28-2008, 10:52 PM
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Staging Lane
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Hit or miss on GMS...I was sold on MM at a track event. I had the normal Steeda/UPR/GMS/etc hacked up car with 10 different brands of suspension parts. Three MM guys and a bunch of their customers spent all day trying to help me get my car dialed in and did not try and sell me one product. I finally started asking those customers what/why they bought what they did (MM is EXTREMELY expensive) and they commented the customer service, the quality, direct bolt in, ease of use.
Cut all the **** out of my car and started fresh. The only non MM suspension part will be the AJE K member. I'm really considering just doing the engine mount modification to my 4.6 K member. I trust the MM parts because I can see how they are built sometimes heavier but far sturdier...they are meant to be able to be driven on the street and abused...I just need that piece of mind.
GMS never heard of failures very often, but fitment issues. But seem to take care of the issues. Just don't do what I did - stick to one brand, buy all their parts, I found out the hard way it works all as a system.
I'm going to need new front spring rates because the LS is certainly going to be a lot, lot lighter in the front than my 4V 4.6L...a lot of these swaps I see people running conventional springs and it sitting way high in the front.
Time to crack open a book, but I'm leaning LS1.
Cut all the **** out of my car and started fresh. The only non MM suspension part will be the AJE K member. I'm really considering just doing the engine mount modification to my 4.6 K member. I trust the MM parts because I can see how they are built sometimes heavier but far sturdier...they are meant to be able to be driven on the street and abused...I just need that piece of mind.
GMS never heard of failures very often, but fitment issues. But seem to take care of the issues. Just don't do what I did - stick to one brand, buy all their parts, I found out the hard way it works all as a system.
I'm going to need new front spring rates because the LS is certainly going to be a lot, lot lighter in the front than my 4V 4.6L...a lot of these swaps I see people running conventional springs and it sitting way high in the front.
Time to crack open a book, but I'm leaning LS1.
09-28-2008, 11:03 PM
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Launching!
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Hit or miss on GMS...I was sold on MM at a track event. I had the normal Steeda/UPR/GMS/etc hacked up car with 10 different brands of suspension parts. Three MM guys and a bunch of their customers spent all day trying to help me get my car dialed in and did not try and sell me one product. I finally started asking those customers what/why they bought what they did (MM is EXTREMELY expensive) and they commented the customer service, the quality, direct bolt in, ease of use.
Cut all the **** out of my car and started fresh. The only non MM suspension part will be the AJE K member. I'm really considering just doing the engine mount modification to my 4.6 K member. I trust the MM parts because I can see how they are built sometimes heavier but far sturdier...they are meant to be able to be driven on the street and abused...I just need that piece of mind.
GMS never heard of failures very often, but fitment issues. But seem to take care of the issues. Just don't do what I did - stick to one brand, buy all their parts, I found out the hard way it works all as a system.
I'm going to need new front spring rates because the LS is certainly going to be a lot, lot lighter in the front than my 4V 4.6L...a lot of these swaps I see people running conventional springs and it sitting way high in the front.
Time to crack open a book, but I'm leaning LS1.
Cut all the **** out of my car and started fresh. The only non MM suspension part will be the AJE K member. I'm really considering just doing the engine mount modification to my 4.6 K member. I trust the MM parts because I can see how they are built sometimes heavier but far sturdier...they are meant to be able to be driven on the street and abused...I just need that piece of mind.
GMS never heard of failures very often, but fitment issues. But seem to take care of the issues. Just don't do what I did - stick to one brand, buy all their parts, I found out the hard way it works all as a system.
I'm going to need new front spring rates because the LS is certainly going to be a lot, lot lighter in the front than my 4V 4.6L...a lot of these swaps I see people running conventional springs and it sitting way high in the front.
Time to crack open a book, but I'm leaning LS1.
Which panhard bar will clear 2.5inch tailpipes without modifying them (tailpipes)?
09-29-2008, 11:35 AM
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The idea came up of a LSX, and I really don't care, a motor is a motor. It's a street/road course car, so it makes sense. For now, either a LS1 or a LS2 with a T56 is going in. I'm going to keep it cable clutch, put a decent clutch in it, Kooks headers, and AJE K member but otherwise no bells and whistles.
09-29-2008, 03:00 PM
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Yeah just to get the car running again, using my stock block it came out to $12000 for forged internals, new timing components, ported heads, cam, injectors, MAF, fuel pump, and tune. And nothing ever ends the prices you think it's going to be.
After I got the car back running, I was looking at having to swap to 03 timing cover, whole front accessories, wiring harness, ECM, supercharger kit, fuel system, front mount intercooler, upgrade the trans, clutch, and rear, get another tune, and finish off the suspension.
Simple math for me. I'll spend the dough to get a mostly stock LS1 in the car and running again, fool around on the track, and add power as I need it. F it, what's a SN95 Cobra really worth anyway.
I'll have to just tip toe to either find an inspection sticker to buy or do some really sweet work to keep the OBDII intact.
After I got the car back running, I was looking at having to swap to 03 timing cover, whole front accessories, wiring harness, ECM, supercharger kit, fuel system, front mount intercooler, upgrade the trans, clutch, and rear, get another tune, and finish off the suspension.
Simple math for me. I'll spend the dough to get a mostly stock LS1 in the car and running again, fool around on the track, and add power as I need it. F it, what's a SN95 Cobra really worth anyway.
I'll have to just tip toe to either find an inspection sticker to buy or do some really sweet work to keep the OBDII intact.
09-29-2008, 03:12 PM
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You can use the MM K-member and there's is nothing like a hyd. clutch setup. It makes the pedal softer than stock....
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...hlight=mustang
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...hlight=mustang
09-29-2008, 03:45 PM
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Damn thanks bro that saves me a ton (that MM K was $679 even back in the day...LOL).
The clutch cable is orders of the wife. I work at JDM Engineering, we do a lot of the 05+ Saleen cars and they are all hydraulic, it is very nice to drive but impossible for me to feel where the clutch engages.
We still have a Probe GT as one of the daily's, it's hydraulic, she refuses to drive it. She keeps dumping the clutch on accident LOL.
The clutch cable is orders of the wife. I work at JDM Engineering, we do a lot of the 05+ Saleen cars and they are all hydraulic, it is very nice to drive but impossible for me to feel where the clutch engages.
We still have a Probe GT as one of the daily's, it's hydraulic, she refuses to drive it. She keeps dumping the clutch on accident LOL.
09-29-2008, 08:25 PM
#16
Damn thanks bro that saves me a ton (that MM K was $679 even back in the day...LOL).
The clutch cable is orders of the wife. I work at JDM Engineering, we do a lot of the 05+ Saleen cars and they are all hydraulic, it is very nice to drive but impossible for me to feel where the clutch engages.
We still have a Probe GT as one of the daily's, it's hydraulic, she refuses to drive it. She keeps dumping the clutch on accident LOL.
The clutch cable is orders of the wife. I work at JDM Engineering, we do a lot of the 05+ Saleen cars and they are all hydraulic, it is very nice to drive but impossible for me to feel where the clutch engages.
We still have a Probe GT as one of the daily's, it's hydraulic, she refuses to drive it. She keeps dumping the clutch on accident LOL.
The problem is if you get a T56 out of an F-body or GTO to bolt to your LS motor, its not going to have any provisions for the cable clutch to work. The bellhousing is designed for the hydraulic clutch with the concentric (internal) slave cylinder, so there are only two small openings on the side of the bellhousing, one for the hydraulic quick connect hookup and the other directly above it for the bleeder screw. No way a clutch fork would work with that bellhousing, unless you somehow manage to cut open the side of the bellhousing for the fork, which would probably not be good for the structural integrity of the bellhousing itself.
BTW, did you consider swapping a 4.6 DOHC out of a Mach 1 by any chance?? That would bolt right up and be a much easier swap, not sure how much they go for price wise though.
09-29-2008, 08:54 PM
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Glad I'm not the only one who notices a hige difference between hydraulic and cable clutches!! The cable setup just has a much better feel to it!!
The problem is if you get a T56 out of an F-body or GTO to bolt to your LS motor, its not going to have any provisions for the cable clutch to work. The bellhousing is designed for the hydraulic clutch with the concentric (internal) slave cylinder, so there are only two small openings on the side of the bellhousing, one for the hydraulic quick connect hookup and the other directly above it for the bleeder screw. No way a clutch fork would work with that bellhousing, unless you somehow manage to cut open the side of the bellhousing for the fork, which would probably not be good for the structural integrity of the bellhousing itself.
BTW, did you consider swapping a 4.6 DOHC out of a Mach 1 by any chance?? That would bolt right up and be a much easier swap, not sure how much they go for price wise though.
The problem is if you get a T56 out of an F-body or GTO to bolt to your LS motor, its not going to have any provisions for the cable clutch to work. The bellhousing is designed for the hydraulic clutch with the concentric (internal) slave cylinder, so there are only two small openings on the side of the bellhousing, one for the hydraulic quick connect hookup and the other directly above it for the bleeder screw. No way a clutch fork would work with that bellhousing, unless you somehow manage to cut open the side of the bellhousing for the fork, which would probably not be good for the structural integrity of the bellhousing itself.
BTW, did you consider swapping a 4.6 DOHC out of a Mach 1 by any chance?? That would bolt right up and be a much easier swap, not sure how much they go for price wise though.
I was going to forge the bottom end 9.7:1 with a 298 stroker (only $300 more than stock displacement) and use ported 03-04 heads and comp cams. That $12000 was for that - by the time you buy oil pump, bearings, etc. all of that is the kind of price you are looking at.
Stupid high prices - $1200 + shipping for just camshafts. Not springs, or anything else. Just sticks.
1999 - I will be excitedly using the 94/95 vacuum booster setup. I have long wanted to ditch the ugly hydroboost lines. Considered a manual rack I was so serious and manual brake swap. Glad I did not go through with that. Got to drive one on the open track and OMG you need to be a body builder. I just have to get lines made with the correct fittings to go into the pump.
Other cars on here have confirmed the 94/95 vacuum setup does clear the driver side cylinder head in a SN95 car with a AJE K member.
09-29-2008, 09:03 PM
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In any case, if you are looking for adapters, check out www.hydratechbraking.com
09-29-2008, 09:08 PM
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I have helped the guy that got me into SN95s (95GT) with a ton of projects, one was upgrading to my style Cobra brakes, then to Brembo GTs. The vacuum 1994-1995 style worked really well on both and felt good on the pedal so I don't feel like I'm giving up that much.
Here is a T56 LS1 bellhousing that appears it would be suitable for a clutch fork.
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku
Here is a T56 LS1 bellhousing that appears it would be suitable for a clutch fork.
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku