UDP's Balancers and that ever long Debate... Why not again?
10-12-2008, 10:04 PM
#1
12 Second Club
Thread Starter
iTrader: (10)
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 1,095
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
UDP's Balancers and that ever long Debate... Why not again? So I have been reading up once again on that ever non-ending debate of Rubber Dampener ring or without. I have been looking into it for years and on the little V6's I enjoy daily driving I have found the rings to always be rotted out and frankly they are not needed in my views. All 4 motors don't leak oil, have great compression still and now run UDP's that do not have the ring.
I also did not feel any gains *Shrugs* just another mod but then they are 2.5L V6's and really its just a dammit I wanna play with something change.
As for my real toy.... I of course felt the same way but I decided before I went to far with it I would read up again and it seems the debate STILL has not gotten any further. One side refuses to run without it... the other shows no signs of problems no using it.
So I thought I would ask here and see the fun that ensues... at the very worst we can all have a few beers and enjoy what could be a funny thread with a few sig worthy replies.
My personal views:
For a piece that is spin balanced originally then also looking at the use of a flywheel... and the fact that the stock dampeners 7/10 have a rotted ring... are you really getting the effects of that stock setup you were meant too?
(Right now the motor I own came with a UDP and no stock pulley on after it. Along that same line I have a stocker that's in ok shape sitting useless here just because I collect parts... as always.)
Since I def do not see over 7000rpms with this motor I am not as concerned and to be honest the new toy I am play with megasquirt on that maybe in the next 2 months will be ready... will be seeing 9000rpm's but again its a little V6 and I am def considering the same UDP yet again. (Sorry off topic)
However I can see how it does not hurt to have it on however my take on UDP's was more then just reducing belt size but weight. Now this is where my information may be flawed because frankly it seems the argument gets stuck other places.
With the UDP to me the loss of unsprung weight is the gain to me, less rotational mass on the crank front is the same to me as less weight on the rear (aka lightened flywheel) so if you gain (Or if you pref it worded, gain the ability to spin up faster) from a lighter flywheel why not a lighter crank pulley? The Added effects of a shorter belt only seem to sweeten the deal of yet just another mod added to the list.
Now with all that said lets see those come out and tell me I am nuts etc etc. (Keep in mind the vehicle is not being driven I am awaiting a BMR Tq arm and then a trip to the exhaust shop to connect my new long tubes to the exhaust I have. I have been working on my swap into the Formula and many other things for about 3 months now just finishing up and getting ready to get her completely dyno tuned).
Now to go grab a beer and get ready to be blasted lol.
I also did not feel any gains *Shrugs* just another mod but then they are 2.5L V6's and really its just a dammit I wanna play with something change.
As for my real toy.... I of course felt the same way but I decided before I went to far with it I would read up again and it seems the debate STILL has not gotten any further. One side refuses to run without it... the other shows no signs of problems no using it.
So I thought I would ask here and see the fun that ensues... at the very worst we can all have a few beers and enjoy what could be a funny thread with a few sig worthy replies.
My personal views:
For a piece that is spin balanced originally then also looking at the use of a flywheel... and the fact that the stock dampeners 7/10 have a rotted ring... are you really getting the effects of that stock setup you were meant too?
(Right now the motor I own came with a UDP and no stock pulley on after it. Along that same line I have a stocker that's in ok shape sitting useless here just because I collect parts... as always.)
Since I def do not see over 7000rpms with this motor I am not as concerned and to be honest the new toy I am play with megasquirt on that maybe in the next 2 months will be ready... will be seeing 9000rpm's but again its a little V6 and I am def considering the same UDP yet again. (Sorry off topic)
However I can see how it does not hurt to have it on however my take on UDP's was more then just reducing belt size but weight. Now this is where my information may be flawed because frankly it seems the argument gets stuck other places.
With the UDP to me the loss of unsprung weight is the gain to me, less rotational mass on the crank front is the same to me as less weight on the rear (aka lightened flywheel) so if you gain (Or if you pref it worded, gain the ability to spin up faster) from a lighter flywheel why not a lighter crank pulley? The Added effects of a shorter belt only seem to sweeten the deal of yet just another mod added to the list.
Now with all that said lets see those come out and tell me I am nuts etc etc. (Keep in mind the vehicle is not being driven I am awaiting a BMR Tq arm and then a trip to the exhaust shop to connect my new long tubes to the exhaust I have. I have been working on my swap into the Formula and many other things for about 3 months now just finishing up and getting ready to get her completely dyno tuned).
Now to go grab a beer and get ready to be blasted lol.
Last edited by Cross; 10-12-2008 at 10:34 PM.
10-12-2008, 11:24 PM
#2
Well all I can say is that I have always heard to stay away from them with LT1s, but when I had my sunfire alot of guys were running them and it seems like alot of LSX guys are running them too. I think this winter I'll order 1 since I need a new pulley and if it will give me a few more ponies it will be worth it. Plus it looks better than my rusty stocker 
10-12-2008, 11:28 PM
#3
12 Second Club
Thread Starter
iTrader: (10)
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 1,095
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Now here is the thing to remember. The March type setup requires you to put your stock Pulley back on so you keep then OEM Balancer.
They do sell sets with what they claim too be the Balancer built on but I can not find any data either way on the LT1 side since well... we still seem to be a dying breed.
So basically your actually adding weight while changing belt size... so the gain you might be getting from the belt size is probably lost in the added weight if you think about it... unless you do not run it at all.
Or if you get one of the all in ones but I have heard they are also heavier then stock.... no confirmation yet.
They do sell sets with what they claim too be the Balancer built on but I can not find any data either way on the LT1 side since well... we still seem to be a dying breed.
So basically your actually adding weight while changing belt size... so the gain you might be getting from the belt size is probably lost in the added weight if you think about it... unless you do not run it at all.
Or if you get one of the all in ones but I have heard they are also heavier then stock.... no confirmation yet.
10-12-2008, 11:50 PM
#4
Well I was looking to get an aluminum one (I think anyway) so I would hope it would be lighter than the stocker. I'll see if I can find it and post a link. I'm also going to get rid of the AC and get the speed inc bracket that keeps the power steering so my belt will be almost half the stock length, but I'm not really concerned about the weight that much right now. But I'm planning on adding an aluminum flywheel down the road and everylittle bit helps and I'm planning on doing some autoX races and road racing so getting the revs up fast it what I'm looking for, so mabye the underdrive pulley would help a little there too...
10-13-2008, 12:20 AM
#6
TECH Resident
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Elko MN
Posts: 833
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i posted in your other thread one of the common arguments stating why you need a harmonic balancer... and it makes sense to me the the idea behind it, dampening the torsional vibration from the crankshaft.
but does the belt perform some the the same duties? stretching slightly and then retracting slightly during these pulses to affectively dampen the torsional vibration? but is it affective enough?
my personal viewpoint is to leave the harmonic balancer on. I dont plan on getting underdrive pulleys for my car since the gains are really too small since the water pump is not driven by the belt anyway. Driving in a straight line, your power steering pump shouldn't be working very hard, and there will always be nearly same amount of drag from your alternator. Lets say it takes 40 amps to maintain your battery and operate all the accessories, whether your alternator is turning 4000 rpm or 5000 rpm it still has to produce that 40 amps, therefore it will need roughly the same amount turning force to do so, except i would rather produce that 40 amps at 5000 rpm since it will operate slightly cooler because the cooling fan will be moving more air.
For me it's not worth the risk to remove the dampener since somewhere along the way its been accepted enough that pretty much every engine that i can think of has been factory equipped with a dampener
just some food for thought perhaps we can get a good discussion going
but does the belt perform some the the same duties? stretching slightly and then retracting slightly during these pulses to affectively dampen the torsional vibration? but is it affective enough?
my personal viewpoint is to leave the harmonic balancer on. I dont plan on getting underdrive pulleys for my car since the gains are really too small since the water pump is not driven by the belt anyway. Driving in a straight line, your power steering pump shouldn't be working very hard, and there will always be nearly same amount of drag from your alternator. Lets say it takes 40 amps to maintain your battery and operate all the accessories, whether your alternator is turning 4000 rpm or 5000 rpm it still has to produce that 40 amps, therefore it will need roughly the same amount turning force to do so, except i would rather produce that 40 amps at 5000 rpm since it will operate slightly cooler because the cooling fan will be moving more air.
For me it's not worth the risk to remove the dampener since somewhere along the way its been accepted enough that pretty much every engine that i can think of has been factory equipped with a dampener
just some food for thought perhaps we can get a good discussion going
10-13-2008, 12:21 AM
#7
Ah I'm not trying to debate, just what I've basically been told.
But yes in therory if the part weighs less it won't increase horsepower, but it will feel more responsive and in turn make the car faster. But if your a drag racer sometimes loosing the unsprung weight such as flywheel or a lighter pulley will make the car slower since it won't have the weight to get the tires going. But taking weight off of the wheels/tires will make the car faster.
Heres one of the pulleys I was looking at
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BBK-1...mZ180291229469
But yes in therory if the part weighs less it won't increase horsepower, but it will feel more responsive and in turn make the car faster. But if your a drag racer sometimes loosing the unsprung weight such as flywheel or a lighter pulley will make the car slower since it won't have the weight to get the tires going. But taking weight off of the wheels/tires will make the car faster.
Heres one of the pulleys I was looking at
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BBK-1...mZ180291229469
Trending Topics
10-13-2008, 01:15 AM
#8
12 Second Club
Thread Starter
iTrader: (10)
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 1,095
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
First the link is to the exact one I have.
And while removing Sprung Weight makes you faster your talking about a drop in Tq (With the unsprung) which for us... well honestly might just be some traction control lol. I know I have enough Torque to feel it getting up to speed faster is something I like however I am also running a stock flywheel and will probably go with a lighter flywheel when the need arises to get a new clutch... but probably not the lightest made either.
I like the thought of the belts too, interesting addition however I have not run across such emphasis on the Water Pump being in or out of the loop maybe someone could comment on that for me personally (Why its such a big factor).
I like the post you made in my other thread its why I started really thinking about it again then just shrugging about it. Hints this thread where I was hoping to see another good discussion with many different minds involved.
I can almost agree with the stock dampener always being there until I remind myself they are almost always dry rotted so what dampening are they really doing anymore? That one always brings me back to why. *Shrugs* sometime the mind just will not let go of things.
Anyway lets keep it going this is good so far!
And while removing Sprung Weight makes you faster your talking about a drop in Tq (With the unsprung) which for us... well honestly might just be some traction control lol. I know I have enough Torque to feel it getting up to speed faster is something I like however I am also running a stock flywheel and will probably go with a lighter flywheel when the need arises to get a new clutch... but probably not the lightest made either.
I like the thought of the belts too, interesting addition however I have not run across such emphasis on the Water Pump being in or out of the loop maybe someone could comment on that for me personally (Why its such a big factor).
I like the post you made in my other thread its why I started really thinking about it again then just shrugging about it. Hints this thread where I was hoping to see another good discussion with many different minds involved.
I can almost agree with the stock dampener always being there until I remind myself they are almost always dry rotted so what dampening are they really doing anymore? That one always brings me back to why. *Shrugs* sometime the mind just will not let go of things.
Anyway lets keep it going this is good so far!
10-13-2008, 01:34 AM
#9
I agree with you there on the weight. I also agree on the traction control thing too LOL. I think I'm going to order the pulley and see what I think of it. But it won't be the only mod that I do, so I'll probably notice a difference but it probably won't be from the pulley.
The dampening affects would be the only real thing that I would worry about. But the belt acting like the tensioner mentioned above is a really different view.
The dampening affects would be the only real thing that I would worry about. But the belt acting like the tensioner mentioned above is a really different view.
10-14-2008, 12:09 PM
#10
Ok I guess that jegs sells a replacement balancer without the hub assembly...
http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/51606/10002/-1
And Aeromotuve sells one too...
http://www.jegs.com/i/Aeromotive/027/21101/10002/-1
There are a few others, but the price doesn't seem worth it. The jegs pulley would be nice, but $200 I just don't know. I saw new stockers going on ebay for $10. I just don't want to hurt he bearings in my motor not running a balancer.
Side note anyone watch the episode (SP) of Pinks when the last pass they did a mustang lost the banancer ring (the rubber seperated and it left the hub in the motor) and everyone warned him not to race and the motor blew about 900 feet out. But he didn't have any belts on there since the crank pulley was non existant. I honestly wonder if the belt will act as the dampener???
I honestly am unsure about it. Anyone ran an underdrive crank pulley from BBK for a long time without any problems?
http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/51606/10002/-1
And Aeromotuve sells one too...
http://www.jegs.com/i/Aeromotive/027/21101/10002/-1
There are a few others, but the price doesn't seem worth it. The jegs pulley would be nice, but $200 I just don't know. I saw new stockers going on ebay for $10. I just don't want to hurt he bearings in my motor not running a balancer.
Side note anyone watch the episode (SP) of Pinks when the last pass they did a mustang lost the banancer ring (the rubber seperated and it left the hub in the motor) and everyone warned him not to race and the motor blew about 900 feet out. But he didn't have any belts on there since the crank pulley was non existant. I honestly wonder if the belt will act as the dampener???
I honestly am unsure about it. Anyone ran an underdrive crank pulley from BBK for a long time without any problems?
10-14-2008, 02:00 PM
#11
TECH Fanatic
I run the ASP 945103 balancer pulley set. 23% underdrive with integreted balancer that weighs 2 lbs. less than the stock one. alt. pulley is 15% overdrive. They have been on about 5 yr. with no issues.
That's 2 lb. of rotational mass, the increase in throttle response was very noticeable.
That's 2 lb. of rotational mass, the increase in throttle response was very noticeable.
10-14-2008, 09:21 PM
#13
I run the ASP 945103 balancer pulley set. 23% underdrive with integreted balancer that weighs 2 lbs. less than the stock one. alt. pulley is 15% overdrive. They have been on about 5 yr. with no issues.
That's 2 lb. of rotational mass, the increase in throttle response was very noticeable.
That's 2 lb. of rotational mass, the increase in throttle response was very noticeable.
I did not have an alt overdrive, but my idle is high enough that it doesn't matter (350 H/C LT1)
No idea if it freed up any power, I didn't do the before/after dyno.
