Crimes agains humanity.
01-20-2009, 08:37 AM
#1
Crimes agains humanity. Crimes against humanity… well, against racers anyway. Grab a cup of coffee or a Snickers bar if you want to read all of this.
This nightmare started in the fall of 2006. My 385 LT4 stroker motor had been a victim of piston ring gap that was too tight for nitrous. Found that out through “experimentation” at the Pinks All Out competition in Ennis, Texas. I had purchased the motor slightly used and did not know every last spec. on it. It had been a great motor for the 13 months that I ran it NA, but the original owner did not use nitrous and evidently had set it tight for max power NA. Oh well. I decided to use this opportunity to step things up a bit and found a 396 stroker short block locally that had been built by a reputable shop in Houston. (not worthy of their reputation once we tore it down, but that is another story).
I decided to entrust the building of this 396 to a local Austin shop that had a great reputation. They had done a set of heads for me about 3 years prior that had turned out excellent. They were also building motors for a couple friends who also held them in high regard. The owner of this shop had some impressive credentials and really talked a good game, so I looked forward to getting the meanest motor I had ever had and really kicking some *** at the track.
The motor was finished several months later and a couple good friends helped me with the install. I followed the break-in instructions from the builder religiously, changed the oil and headed off to a dyno appointment. Well, the damn thing blew up on the dyno. Trailered the car home and pulled the motor the next weekend. Took it back to the engine builder. They called and said we are very sorry, the oil pump pickup fell off. I asked if they had welded it on and they said yes, but two different kinds of metal, can’t put the welder on it too much blah, blah. They agree to stand behind this and rebuild the motor. I found out recently that the owner of the shop had used a piece of coat hanger to tack the pickup onto the pump. Hard to think of a cheaper or more brittle metal. Despite bolt-on pickup style pumps being available they had gone with a press fit. This on a motor that they knew would be run like a banshee at the track. Well, this time around I had them use a Melling pump with a bolt on pickup and a support.
I get the motor back again. Again I have to enlist the help of a couple friends to spend a day with me to put the car back together. Great friends are really just simply… great. We fired up the motor and it’s tapping. I am like WTF? Well, it sounds like a couple lifters did not pump up. I drive the car 3 laps around the neighbor hood to see if I can make these lifters pump up. No dice. I had Comp lifters and there had been an (Internet fostered) scare about some batches of them. OK, I shell out some more money and buy a set of the new badass Cadillac racing program lifters. I pull the intake and the Rev Kit and Tony and I install the new lifters. We button the motor back up but there is no change. It is still tapping.
I called the shop. I was pretty pissed and out of patience at this point, but I politely conveyed that to the owner. He understood that I was sick of pulling and installing the motor that he had built and he told me to bring the entire car over and he would check it out. I do so and some time later he calls and lets me know that the #4 piston was put in the #6 bore and vice versa when his shop did the rebuild. Brilliant. The tap I was hearing was the intake valves trying to open against the smaller exhaust valve reliefs, so the valves were tapping on the piston tops in those two cylinders. The shop owner personally does the repair, but it doesn’t sit well with me. He swapped the pistons and fixed the heads with the motor still in the car (jacking it up and dropping the pan), plus my trust in his operation was pretty much shot by now.
I get the car back and enjoy a couple trips to the track to include taking 2nd place in Extreme Street at the LTX Shootout. That was about the only high point in over 2 years. The very next trip to the track the damn opti-spark lets go. No fault to my engine builder (just this once) but the car is down again while I rebuild the Opti with better MSD components. I also upgrade to a nice ATI Super Damper while I have things torn down up front.
I now notice some kind of knock. I tear down the top of the motor and do not see anything wrong. I pull all lifters and they are fine. I put the car up on jackstands and listen… sounds like its coming from the converter. Hmm… sounds like the converter is failing. The knock seems to be coming directly from it. Well it was a TCI SSF and not really designed to live behind a motor that was putting down the torque that mine was. Also, the converter had been acting funny. Tony and I do a little more driveability tuning and do some data logging and everything is going great. I turn to Tony and I say “man, this thing is running great! However, I don’t think that I will ever completely trust this motor due to all the nonsense with the builder”. OK, I buy a nice $725 Yank billet converter and get it installed. Now the car is running completely awesome. The knock seems to be gone. It’s street manners are much better. It had bad cam surge with the failing converter and now with Tony’s tuning and the new Yank it is a joy to drive. I take it to an industrial park late at night and do a couple WOT runs. The car scared me a little. It was running that well.
I take the car out two nights later… and BLAM. The motor lets go. It had 1800 miles and 20 passes at the track. Whoopee. It was full of oil, all break-in instructions had been done to the letter. I had never over-revved it and it had yet to see a single whiff of nitrous. F me.
Well, not that I would trust the builder, but that shop had since closed its doors. No surprise there. They had screwed up every single LT1 that they had built in their last year of business. One friend had the exact same oil pump massacre and had to re-bearing his motor about 300 miles after it left this great builder’s shop. Another racer had his crank drilled wrong for the heavy metal. The metal backed out on the dyno and trashed his motor. Yet another person I know got their LT1 back from this shop and noticed the oil pan was leaking. They dropped the pan and found pieces of piston rings in it. The bottom rings, the oil control rings, had simply broken and fallen off the pistons. WTF? That shop had gone from hero to zero in their last year of business and totally screwed me and several other people over.
Well, I dropped off my trashed motor with another builder, Glenn Behrens. Glenn does all of the work himself. No helpers or assistants that he has to keep an eye on. It is a one-man show and I am a small fish compared to most of his customers. He worked on a Pro-Stock team as a young man and now builds motors for heavy hitters. A couple local guys who are very astute racers and very knowledgeable have been running great times with his work under the hood and their engines have never skipped a beat. Glenn called me after tearing down my motor and confirmed what I knew was coming: the motor is trashed and needs a complete rebuild. It is going to be very painful financially, but I hope and pray that in a few months I will have an awesome, powerful, and dependable motor that I can enjoy for many years. The worst part is probably not financial, although that aspect really sucks. The worst part is probably my 2+ year nightmare of fighting with the car and motor and not being able to race 80% of the time. I love to race and being deprived of my hobby has been horrible.
So that is my story.
This nightmare started in the fall of 2006. My 385 LT4 stroker motor had been a victim of piston ring gap that was too tight for nitrous. Found that out through “experimentation” at the Pinks All Out competition in Ennis, Texas. I had purchased the motor slightly used and did not know every last spec. on it. It had been a great motor for the 13 months that I ran it NA, but the original owner did not use nitrous and evidently had set it tight for max power NA. Oh well. I decided to use this opportunity to step things up a bit and found a 396 stroker short block locally that had been built by a reputable shop in Houston. (not worthy of their reputation once we tore it down, but that is another story).
I decided to entrust the building of this 396 to a local Austin shop that had a great reputation. They had done a set of heads for me about 3 years prior that had turned out excellent. They were also building motors for a couple friends who also held them in high regard. The owner of this shop had some impressive credentials and really talked a good game, so I looked forward to getting the meanest motor I had ever had and really kicking some *** at the track.
The motor was finished several months later and a couple good friends helped me with the install. I followed the break-in instructions from the builder religiously, changed the oil and headed off to a dyno appointment. Well, the damn thing blew up on the dyno. Trailered the car home and pulled the motor the next weekend. Took it back to the engine builder. They called and said we are very sorry, the oil pump pickup fell off. I asked if they had welded it on and they said yes, but two different kinds of metal, can’t put the welder on it too much blah, blah. They agree to stand behind this and rebuild the motor. I found out recently that the owner of the shop had used a piece of coat hanger to tack the pickup onto the pump. Hard to think of a cheaper or more brittle metal. Despite bolt-on pickup style pumps being available they had gone with a press fit. This on a motor that they knew would be run like a banshee at the track. Well, this time around I had them use a Melling pump with a bolt on pickup and a support.
I get the motor back again. Again I have to enlist the help of a couple friends to spend a day with me to put the car back together. Great friends are really just simply… great. We fired up the motor and it’s tapping. I am like WTF? Well, it sounds like a couple lifters did not pump up. I drive the car 3 laps around the neighbor hood to see if I can make these lifters pump up. No dice. I had Comp lifters and there had been an (Internet fostered) scare about some batches of them. OK, I shell out some more money and buy a set of the new badass Cadillac racing program lifters. I pull the intake and the Rev Kit and Tony and I install the new lifters. We button the motor back up but there is no change. It is still tapping.
I called the shop. I was pretty pissed and out of patience at this point, but I politely conveyed that to the owner. He understood that I was sick of pulling and installing the motor that he had built and he told me to bring the entire car over and he would check it out. I do so and some time later he calls and lets me know that the #4 piston was put in the #6 bore and vice versa when his shop did the rebuild. Brilliant. The tap I was hearing was the intake valves trying to open against the smaller exhaust valve reliefs, so the valves were tapping on the piston tops in those two cylinders. The shop owner personally does the repair, but it doesn’t sit well with me. He swapped the pistons and fixed the heads with the motor still in the car (jacking it up and dropping the pan), plus my trust in his operation was pretty much shot by now.
I get the car back and enjoy a couple trips to the track to include taking 2nd place in Extreme Street at the LTX Shootout. That was about the only high point in over 2 years. The very next trip to the track the damn opti-spark lets go. No fault to my engine builder (just this once) but the car is down again while I rebuild the Opti with better MSD components. I also upgrade to a nice ATI Super Damper while I have things torn down up front.
I now notice some kind of knock. I tear down the top of the motor and do not see anything wrong. I pull all lifters and they are fine. I put the car up on jackstands and listen… sounds like its coming from the converter. Hmm… sounds like the converter is failing. The knock seems to be coming directly from it. Well it was a TCI SSF and not really designed to live behind a motor that was putting down the torque that mine was. Also, the converter had been acting funny. Tony and I do a little more driveability tuning and do some data logging and everything is going great. I turn to Tony and I say “man, this thing is running great! However, I don’t think that I will ever completely trust this motor due to all the nonsense with the builder”. OK, I buy a nice $725 Yank billet converter and get it installed. Now the car is running completely awesome. The knock seems to be gone. It’s street manners are much better. It had bad cam surge with the failing converter and now with Tony’s tuning and the new Yank it is a joy to drive. I take it to an industrial park late at night and do a couple WOT runs. The car scared me a little. It was running that well.
I take the car out two nights later… and BLAM. The motor lets go. It had 1800 miles and 20 passes at the track. Whoopee. It was full of oil, all break-in instructions had been done to the letter. I had never over-revved it and it had yet to see a single whiff of nitrous. F me.
Well, not that I would trust the builder, but that shop had since closed its doors. No surprise there. They had screwed up every single LT1 that they had built in their last year of business. One friend had the exact same oil pump massacre and had to re-bearing his motor about 300 miles after it left this great builder’s shop. Another racer had his crank drilled wrong for the heavy metal. The metal backed out on the dyno and trashed his motor. Yet another person I know got their LT1 back from this shop and noticed the oil pan was leaking. They dropped the pan and found pieces of piston rings in it. The bottom rings, the oil control rings, had simply broken and fallen off the pistons. WTF? That shop had gone from hero to zero in their last year of business and totally screwed me and several other people over.
Well, I dropped off my trashed motor with another builder, Glenn Behrens. Glenn does all of the work himself. No helpers or assistants that he has to keep an eye on. It is a one-man show and I am a small fish compared to most of his customers. He worked on a Pro-Stock team as a young man and now builds motors for heavy hitters. A couple local guys who are very astute racers and very knowledgeable have been running great times with his work under the hood and their engines have never skipped a beat. Glenn called me after tearing down my motor and confirmed what I knew was coming: the motor is trashed and needs a complete rebuild. It is going to be very painful financially, but I hope and pray that in a few months I will have an awesome, powerful, and dependable motor that I can enjoy for many years. The worst part is probably not financial, although that aspect really sucks. The worst part is probably my 2+ year nightmare of fighting with the car and motor and not being able to race 80% of the time. I love to race and being deprived of my hobby has been horrible.
So that is my story.
Last edited by TWS; 01-20-2009 at 09:13 AM.
01-20-2009, 08:55 AM
#3
Let me tell you I work at a machine shop, and you would be amazed how many machine shops are completely NOT legit and still stay in business. My shop was pretty much a one person deal before I was there, alls I really do is valve jobs and misc stuff around the shop, even though I can do a lot of machining it's not worth it to have my boss have to watch over me, I've only got a years experience.
When you've got a bunch of "machinist" running a machine shop it usually doesn't work out to well. There's a difference between and "engine builder" and a "machinist". Any machinist can read measurements and machine a part, but can he build an entire engine from top to bottom for a specific application? There's far more to "engine building" than reading specs and machining parts.
And attention to detail is #1 priority. Pistons in the wrong hole? Are you kidding me? That is ridiculous!!!! If that gets over looked, omg what else got over looked? Finding a good machine shop seams like it is harder than it should be these days, everyone is just out to make a buck, there's a lot of scheisty business around just out to make a buck who don't care nor take pride in there work.
Find out everything you can about a place before you take you're engine there! Hopefully this guy you found now can give you what you're looking for!
When you've got a bunch of "machinist" running a machine shop it usually doesn't work out to well. There's a difference between and "engine builder" and a "machinist". Any machinist can read measurements and machine a part, but can he build an entire engine from top to bottom for a specific application? There's far more to "engine building" than reading specs and machining parts.
And attention to detail is #1 priority. Pistons in the wrong hole? Are you kidding me? That is ridiculous!!!! If that gets over looked, omg what else got over looked? Finding a good machine shop seams like it is harder than it should be these days, everyone is just out to make a buck, there's a lot of scheisty business around just out to make a buck who don't care nor take pride in there work.
Find out everything you can about a place before you take you're engine there! Hopefully this guy you found now can give you what you're looking for!
01-20-2009, 08:56 AM
#4
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I feel your pain, not quite in the same category of pain, but I know how it is for something you bought to just end up being pretty much worthless :\ (The trans I bought was a lemon and worse off than my bad one I was replacing!)
01-20-2009, 09:13 AM
#5
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damn that sucks, it's stuff like that which really makes me want to learn to build my own motor, but it's also stuff like that which kinda has me a little worried to try. I'd really love to get the knowledge and experience to build my own right just dont have the money to be experimenting and blowing up stuff, lol
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01-20-2009, 09:46 AM
#8
I am in a similar (but probably much less painful) situation with my transmission:
(1) My trans was making a lot of noise in 1st year now RPM and had a shop look at it. They said the bearings were bad so I had them put new bearings in and rebuild the trans.
(2) The trans is louder than I think it should be so I take it back to them. The review it and say it is fine, just takes time to wear in right. The next day the release bearing in the pressure plate fails on my brand new RAM clutch (probably not the shop's fault). They put a new clutch in for me and I get it back.
(3) Now the trans grind like hell going into 3rd and 4th gear. I take it back to them and they take it apart, say I had a broken shift dog and need a few new syncros. They do the work and I get it back.
(4) STILL GRINDING LIKE HELL!! EVEN WORSE! They say I need to drive it for "a few hundred miles" with it grinding like hell so it can "wear in".
I call B.S. How in the hell should I deal with these guys? (sorry to thread steal, your post just reminded me of my misery and I was hoping for input).
(1) My trans was making a lot of noise in 1st year now RPM and had a shop look at it. They said the bearings were bad so I had them put new bearings in and rebuild the trans.
(2) The trans is louder than I think it should be so I take it back to them. The review it and say it is fine, just takes time to wear in right. The next day the release bearing in the pressure plate fails on my brand new RAM clutch (probably not the shop's fault). They put a new clutch in for me and I get it back.
(3) Now the trans grind like hell going into 3rd and 4th gear. I take it back to them and they take it apart, say I had a broken shift dog and need a few new syncros. They do the work and I get it back.
(4) STILL GRINDING LIKE HELL!! EVEN WORSE! They say I need to drive it for "a few hundred miles" with it grinding like hell so it can "wear in".
I call B.S. How in the hell should I deal with these guys? (sorry to thread steal, your post just reminded me of my misery and I was hoping for input).
Last edited by 1quickTransAm; 01-20-2009 at 10:07 AM.
01-20-2009, 10:27 AM
#11
Thanks for the well-wishes guys. No problem with anyone else chiming in with their own horror stories. Go ahead and get it off your chest.
Larry (Speed Inc.) You probably remember us BSing in the staging lanes between rounds at KCIR. That was about the only fun I had in two years with the car. Thanks for the compliment, but I'm not all that patient. What has kept me sane is being able to drive my street cars on nice weekends. I would take Squeaky back to the track but she likes to eat up the T-56 and/or the clutch when I run her down the 1320. So far the latest trans build has been fine for a little late night
every now and then. The other cars are just not set up to be pounded down the 1/4 mile.
Larry (Speed Inc.) You probably remember us BSing in the staging lanes between rounds at KCIR. That was about the only fun I had in two years with the car. Thanks for the compliment, but I'm not all that patient. What has kept me sane is being able to drive my street cars on nice weekends. I would take Squeaky back to the track but she likes to eat up the T-56 and/or the clutch when I run her down the 1320. So far the latest trans build has been fine for a little late night
every now and then. The other cars are just not set up to be pounded down the 1/4 mile. 
01-20-2009, 10:42 AM
#13
Todd,
You have been around this hobby longer than I have, but in 9 years, I can't count that amount of these big name machine shops that have folded or turned out trash. It really sucks, because so many people nut hug they don't really get the real story out. Sorry to hear, you make me never want to mod a car again in my life.
Neil
You have been around this hobby longer than I have, but in 9 years, I can't count that amount of these big name machine shops that have folded or turned out trash. It really sucks, because so many people nut hug they don't really get the real story out. Sorry to hear, you make me never want to mod a car again in my life.
Neil
01-20-2009, 11:29 AM
#16
Again sorry to see this happen Todd!
I unfortunately was burned by the same shop and am now having to spend $3500 to fix their mistakes again. Something happened to their quality in the last 2 years. Before that time they were the best in the area put out some quality work. I hated to see this happen to myself and all the others I sent to them. He is a good man.............just somehow lost the quality control aspect of his business. I wish him the best and those involved.
Like Neil stated we have seen some damn good shops in Texas flop over the past 10 years.
I unfortunately was burned by the same shop and am now having to spend $3500 to fix their mistakes again. Something happened to their quality in the last 2 years. Before that time they were the best in the area put out some quality work. I hated to see this happen to myself and all the others I sent to them. He is a good man.............just somehow lost the quality control aspect of his business. I wish him the best and those involved.
Like Neil stated we have seen some damn good shops in Texas flop over the past 10 years.
Last edited by Tony Shepherd; 01-20-2009 at 04:52 PM.
01-20-2009, 03:37 PM
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Been around fast cars for most my life.This stuff goes on to much. Payed for a forged crank in a engine build 2 years later pulling motor out got the oil pan off and wow look a cast crank,Heads switched on me, wrong rods,The list goes on.Never, trust any shop.verfiy there work, parts. double check casting numbers .If you cant check there work or know what to look for get some help.Yes i can see now how they can afford those 850 CI mountain motors. And let me strike you cant trust any shop.There are folks out there today that are 100% legit and care about the work they peform on your heads,blocks.Like its there own.
01-20-2009, 03:57 PM
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Wow..... Todd, Tony kept me abreast of what was going on with the aforementioned shop and man I feel for both of you guys.... If you guys need anything motor related or you get tired of dealing with the same old same old let me know. I already told Tony that my engine builder was completely willing to do an out of state deal and build a simply VICIOUS motor.... My motor is a friggin tank. It went 10.60's all motor the first time at the track. With gears optimized for nitrous, with a nitrous cam....
Did that builder ever come to the track with you and stand behind his product, lashing valves, offering tuning advice, or simply being there for support????
Reason I ask is because lately that is what I look for in engine builders. Are these guys out at the track, helping racers with their products? Or are they just giving face time telling you "yeah everyone runs my motors" yet you have yet to see anyone with that guys engine.... I'm lucky because i'm great friends with my engine guy. I know his wife, he knows my kids, we hang out on the weekends. We race together. I have used his shop to do **** to my car after hours and helped me a ton. My motor took awhile to build but if I have anything to say about builders that if they aren't busy that should tell you something
Again I know your story Todd as well as tony's and if you guys need assistance or want to do a motor out of state (even though I know that's a painful order situation not being able to drive over and check on it) let me know. I'm only as far as a phone call.... Not saying my motor is the end all be all or it's the ****, BUT I will tell you this: It was my engine builder that was damn near swapping out the jets from a 300 shot to a 400 shot the last time I was at the track and my tuner was the one who told him to hold off... Any engine builder who stands behind his product enough to say "Don't worry, it'll take that 4 hundo all day" is a guy who you want building your ****.....
Good luck with your build Todd. I hope it turns out well...
Did that builder ever come to the track with you and stand behind his product, lashing valves, offering tuning advice, or simply being there for support????
Reason I ask is because lately that is what I look for in engine builders. Are these guys out at the track, helping racers with their products? Or are they just giving face time telling you "yeah everyone runs my motors" yet you have yet to see anyone with that guys engine.... I'm lucky because i'm great friends with my engine guy. I know his wife, he knows my kids, we hang out on the weekends. We race together. I have used his shop to do **** to my car after hours and helped me a ton. My motor took awhile to build but if I have anything to say about builders that if they aren't busy that should tell you something
Again I know your story Todd as well as tony's and if you guys need assistance or want to do a motor out of state (even though I know that's a painful order situation not being able to drive over and check on it) let me know. I'm only as far as a phone call.... Not saying my motor is the end all be all or it's the ****, BUT I will tell you this: It was my engine builder that was damn near swapping out the jets from a 300 shot to a 400 shot the last time I was at the track and my tuner was the one who told him to hold off... Any engine builder who stands behind his product enough to say "Don't worry, it'll take that 4 hundo all day" is a guy who you want building your ****.....
Good luck with your build Todd. I hope it turns out well...