Whats needed to run mid 11's
01-23-2009, 08:11 AM
#1
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Whats needed to run mid 11's Hay guys im going to fix the question that i asked in the last thread i posted. I want to run mid 11's all day but i don't want to cage the car if i don't have to. i do not have the specs on the heads at the moment. i do no the heads will have a race port and polish. and the heads will be port matched to the block and the intake. The motor will be a 383 stroker with 4 bolt main. Now my other question is what are you guys running for internals. what type of cam, crank, pistons, rings. what set ups are you guys running if you don't mind telling so i can pick the right parts. O and the reasion im not paying labor on my engine build is my machinist is a family friend.
01-23-2009, 08:20 AM
#2
To run mid 11s you need to have a bit of knowledge and to figure out how to sort out the tiny bits of good information to be found among the garbage posted on forums.
"race ported" means exactly nothing could be completely destroyed castings that perform no better than stock or they could be better than the aftermarket stuff everyone drools over based on name alone, or anything n between.
How does one "port match heads to the block"?
A well put together heads and cam f-body should be capable of mid 11s spring and fall, if you aim for mid 11s in summer you will get kicked out and told to put a rollbar in it when a high pressure system or cold weather makes the car faster.
A LOT of 383 are put together that are inferior to the stock shortblock, people like to "upgrade" the wrong things and fall for marketing BS when choosing "upgrades" and endup spending a lot and getting little for it.
Far as rotating assembly, let the machinist pick it, he has to be comfortable with it.
"race ported" means exactly nothing could be completely destroyed castings that perform no better than stock or they could be better than the aftermarket stuff everyone drools over based on name alone, or anything n between.
How does one "port match heads to the block"?
A well put together heads and cam f-body should be capable of mid 11s spring and fall, if you aim for mid 11s in summer you will get kicked out and told to put a rollbar in it when a high pressure system or cold weather makes the car faster.
A LOT of 383 are put together that are inferior to the stock shortblock, people like to "upgrade" the wrong things and fall for marketing BS when choosing "upgrades" and endup spending a lot and getting little for it.
Far as rotating assembly, let the machinist pick it, he has to be comfortable with it.
01-23-2009, 10:05 AM
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How does one "port match heads to the block"?
i dident mean to wright that. what about mods like underdrives, shift kits, stall converters, headers. what brands are worth the money and what ones are not worth the money. im planing on using a yank 3500 stall, summit underdrive pully, b&m shift kit. im building my 700r with b&m performance parts, reverse valve body, and pasesetters headers. and maby a 200 shot if i have money left over. ill leave the rest up to my machinist
i dident mean to wright that. what about mods like underdrives, shift kits, stall converters, headers. what brands are worth the money and what ones are not worth the money. im planing on using a yank 3500 stall, summit underdrive pully, b&m shift kit. im building my 700r with b&m performance parts, reverse valve body, and pasesetters headers. and maby a 200 shot if i have money left over. ill leave the rest up to my machinist
01-23-2009, 10:20 AM
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I should see mid to high 11's with my cam only motor with the only work done on the heads in a mild valve job. It's not always about big set-ups. i see alot of poeple with 383's running what i should run in my cam only car. I went with Advanced Inductions for my cam set-up and got their 226/234 cam kit with rockers and everything you need for a cam swap. Now if i went with AI's 200cc heads i think i could preety easily be low 11's. and this is all on the STOCK bottom end... AI has a car right now running mid 10's on a stock bottom end NA and 9's on i think a 185shot if i remember right... Just remember it's not all about displacement, it's more that you need a well thought out set-up not just a bunch of parts thrown together that may not work well as a combo.
As for a convertor i had a 3200vig on my stock motor set-up with just cold air and cat back and i ran 13.0's with the stall and a sticky tire. Now for my cam set-up i'm going to get the covertor re-flashed to a 3800 or 4000.... Talk with Vig or Yank and see what they suggest for your set-up...
Hope i helped...
As for a convertor i had a 3200vig on my stock motor set-up with just cold air and cat back and i ran 13.0's with the stall and a sticky tire. Now for my cam set-up i'm going to get the covertor re-flashed to a 3800 or 4000.... Talk with Vig or Yank and see what they suggest for your set-up...
Hope i helped...
01-23-2009, 10:41 AM
#5
Skip the underdrive pullies unless you buy a NICE damper that happens to be underdrive. The LT1 does not have a belt driven WP which is the biggest source of gains on OTHER cars with underdrive setups.
B&M shift kit is the wrong one, don't know of a reputable 700R4/4L60E builder who uses it they pretty much al like Transgo.
I wouldn't use B&M parts either, the 4L60E does not require a lot of "upgrades" to handle big power, it requires a skilled builder, unfortunately most people try and throw parts at it instead of knowledge.
The 4L60E in my car is over 5 years old now, LOTS of stock parts in it as well as Walmart brand fluid. I paid someone who GENUINELY knows what he is doing to put it together rather than just trusting any old hack who claimed to be capable.
B&M shift kit is the wrong one, don't know of a reputable 700R4/4L60E builder who uses it they pretty much al like Transgo.
I wouldn't use B&M parts either, the 4L60E does not require a lot of "upgrades" to handle big power, it requires a skilled builder, unfortunately most people try and throw parts at it instead of knowledge.
The 4L60E in my car is over 5 years old now, LOTS of stock parts in it as well as Walmart brand fluid. I paid someone who GENUINELY knows what he is doing to put it together rather than just trusting any old hack who claimed to be capable.
01-23-2009, 01:47 PM
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the problem with the 4l60E is im not running a computer im running a carb i used a 350 that i had sitting around at the shop i worked at that has a old style distributor and every thing fits great only problem is getting the cap off. ill deal with that latter. now if i do a tranny swap i wouldent use a 4l60E or a 4l80E. the only tranny i really trust with only doing a stall would be a Allison tranny. and i think i spelled that wrong. my truck has a allison tranny in it and i love it only problem is the price tag on one is out of the question. i would much rather spend $1500 or so and have my 700R4 built to handle the power. also i have to keep in mind im getting married next summer so i have to watch how much money i put in to my build. i dont want to be cheap but i dont want to break the bank eather. but i do understand what you are saying
01-23-2009, 02:50 PM
#7
the problem with the 4l60E is im not running a computer im running a carb i used a 350 that i had sitting around at the shop i worked at that has a old style distributor and every thing fits great only problem is getting the cap off. ill deal with that latter. now if i do a tranny swap i wouldent use a 4l60E or a 4l80E. the only tranny i really trust with only doing a stall would be a Allison tranny. and i think i spelled that wrong. my truck has a allison tranny in it and i love it only problem is the price tag on one is out of the question. i would much rather spend $1500 or so and have my 700R4 built to handle the power. also i have to keep in mind im getting married next summer so i have to watch how much money i put in to my build. i dont want to be cheap but i dont want to break the bank eather. but i do understand what you are saying
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01-23-2009, 05:13 PM
#8
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Well when i started this it started as a lt1 im just geting rid of the computer and opti and the rats nest chevy calls a wiring harness. and im adding a carb and old style dist. in a way im converting the lt1 to a older style 350 if that makes any sense at all.....O and just some info my 93z28 dose not have the same computer as a 94 and newer. the 700r hads a kick down cable
01-23-2009, 07:10 PM
#9
the 4L60/700R4 are basically the same as a 4L60E.
I understand using a 700R4 since the car never came with the electronic valvebody but the fact you seem to think a 4L60E is weaker shows you don't understand things well, it is ctually stonger due to constant updates.
The 4L60E/4l60/700R4 can handle 9s if built right the problem with them is so few shops build them well. Then when they fail the hacks blame the tranny rather than admit bad work.
I know a guy with a 4L60E in a car that by weight/trap speed calculations is over 900 at the wheels, but yeah every kid who want s a 11-12 second car NEEDS to get rid of it.
On the distributor I am not sure what it would take but I know the 91-3 TBI Caprice had a distributor with a larger base where it met the intake and the intake had a larger hole, this made room to be able to get it out with the engine in the car. Now you wont want that exact distributor because it is compluter controlled and you don't want the intake, but MAYBE you could use it as inspiration, maybe use the distributor as a core putting HEI guts in it and get whatever intake opened up a little.
Really though the computer is not so bad, believe the 93 system can be modified for real time tuning and will go beyond the MAF systems rpm limitations, consider keeping it, a lot of the guys that go carbed especially for a car that sees street time end up regretting it.
I understand a budget, some key points in making the most of a budget are.
1. Do things right, always cheaper than fixing. If you go cheapest the chances of problems are high.
2. Work with what you already have, the more stuff you reuse the less you have to buy.
3. Leave some padding, if you have $4K to work with only plan on spending $2500 by the end you will still be looking for another $500+.
Why are you so quick to have to have a stroker? You do a "cheap" stroker and you are likely to endup with something no better than the stock shortblock. The stock stuff is pretty good, biggest issue being the rod bolts are not up to reliably handling more than about 6500rpms.
Don't get me wrong I would like a stroker but a cheap one is not likely to be an upgrade and money spent on inferior parts like an inported crank would go further if put into topend and valvetrain. So if on a tight budget most guys are better served by not doing a full shortblock build.
I understand using a 700R4 since the car never came with the electronic valvebody but the fact you seem to think a 4L60E is weaker shows you don't understand things well, it is ctually stonger due to constant updates.
The 4L60E/4l60/700R4 can handle 9s if built right the problem with them is so few shops build them well. Then when they fail the hacks blame the tranny rather than admit bad work.
I know a guy with a 4L60E in a car that by weight/trap speed calculations is over 900 at the wheels, but yeah every kid who want s a 11-12 second car NEEDS to get rid of it.
On the distributor I am not sure what it would take but I know the 91-3 TBI Caprice had a distributor with a larger base where it met the intake and the intake had a larger hole, this made room to be able to get it out with the engine in the car. Now you wont want that exact distributor because it is compluter controlled and you don't want the intake, but MAYBE you could use it as inspiration, maybe use the distributor as a core putting HEI guts in it and get whatever intake opened up a little.
Really though the computer is not so bad, believe the 93 system can be modified for real time tuning and will go beyond the MAF systems rpm limitations, consider keeping it, a lot of the guys that go carbed especially for a car that sees street time end up regretting it.
I understand a budget, some key points in making the most of a budget are.
1. Do things right, always cheaper than fixing. If you go cheapest the chances of problems are high.
2. Work with what you already have, the more stuff you reuse the less you have to buy.
3. Leave some padding, if you have $4K to work with only plan on spending $2500 by the end you will still be looking for another $500+.
Why are you so quick to have to have a stroker? You do a "cheap" stroker and you are likely to endup with something no better than the stock shortblock. The stock stuff is pretty good, biggest issue being the rod bolts are not up to reliably handling more than about 6500rpms.
Don't get me wrong I would like a stroker but a cheap one is not likely to be an upgrade and money spent on inferior parts like an inported crank would go further if put into topend and valvetrain. So if on a tight budget most guys are better served by not doing a full shortblock build.
01-23-2009, 07:28 PM
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Why are you so quick to have to have a stroker? You do a "cheap" stroker and you are likely to endup with something no better than the stock shortblock. The stock stuff is pretty good, biggest issue being the rod bolts are not up to reliably handling more than about 6500rpms.
Don't get me wrong I would like a stroker but a cheap one is not likely to be an upgrade and money spent on inferior parts like an inported crank would go further if put into topend and valvetrain. So if on a tight budget most guys are better served by not doing a full shortblock build.
Don't get me wrong I would like a stroker but a cheap one is not likely to be an upgrade and money spent on inferior parts like an inported crank would go further if put into topend and valvetrain. So if on a tight budget most guys are better served by not doing a full shortblock build.
01-23-2009, 09:15 PM
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the 4L60/700R4 are basically the same as a 4L60E.
I understand using a 700R4 since the car never came with the electronic valvebody but the fact you seem to think a 4L60E is weaker shows you don't understand things well, it is ctually stonger due to constant updates.
The 4L60E/4l60/700R4 can handle 9s if built right the problem with them is so few shops build them well. Then when they fail the hacks blame the tranny rather than admit bad work.
I know a guy with a 4L60E in a car that by weight/trap speed calculations is over 900 at the wheels, but yeah every kid who want s a 11-12 second car NEEDS to get rid of it.
On the distributor I am not sure what it would take but I know the 91-3 TBI Caprice had a distributor with a larger base where it met the intake and the intake had a larger hole, this made room to be able to get it out with the engine in the car. Now you wont want that exact distributor because it is compluter controlled and you don't want the intake, but MAYBE you could use it as inspiration, maybe use the distributor as a core putting HEI guts in it and get whatever intake opened up a little.
Really though the computer is not so bad, believe the 93 system can be modified for real time tuning and will go beyond the MAF systems rpm limitations, consider keeping it, a lot of the guys that go carbed especially for a car that sees street time end up regretting it.
I understand a budget, some key points in making the most of a budget are.
1. Do things right, always cheaper than fixing. If you go cheapest the chances of problems are high.
2. Work with what you already have, the more stuff you reuse the less you have to buy.
3. Leave some padding, if you have $4K to work with only plan on spending $2500 by the end you will still be looking for another $500+.
Why are you so quick to have to have a stroker? You do a "cheap" stroker and you are likely to endup with something no better than the stock shortblock. The stock stuff is pretty good, biggest issue being the rod bolts are not up to reliably handling more than about 6500rpms.
Don't get me wrong I would like a stroker but a cheap one is not likely to be an upgrade and money spent on inferior parts like an inported crank would go further if put into topend and valvetrain. So if on a tight budget most guys are better served by not doing a full shortblock build.
I understand using a 700R4 since the car never came with the electronic valvebody but the fact you seem to think a 4L60E is weaker shows you don't understand things well, it is ctually stonger due to constant updates.
The 4L60E/4l60/700R4 can handle 9s if built right the problem with them is so few shops build them well. Then when they fail the hacks blame the tranny rather than admit bad work.
I know a guy with a 4L60E in a car that by weight/trap speed calculations is over 900 at the wheels, but yeah every kid who want s a 11-12 second car NEEDS to get rid of it.
On the distributor I am not sure what it would take but I know the 91-3 TBI Caprice had a distributor with a larger base where it met the intake and the intake had a larger hole, this made room to be able to get it out with the engine in the car. Now you wont want that exact distributor because it is compluter controlled and you don't want the intake, but MAYBE you could use it as inspiration, maybe use the distributor as a core putting HEI guts in it and get whatever intake opened up a little.
Really though the computer is not so bad, believe the 93 system can be modified for real time tuning and will go beyond the MAF systems rpm limitations, consider keeping it, a lot of the guys that go carbed especially for a car that sees street time end up regretting it.
I understand a budget, some key points in making the most of a budget are.
1. Do things right, always cheaper than fixing. If you go cheapest the chances of problems are high.
2. Work with what you already have, the more stuff you reuse the less you have to buy.
3. Leave some padding, if you have $4K to work with only plan on spending $2500 by the end you will still be looking for another $500+.
Why are you so quick to have to have a stroker? You do a "cheap" stroker and you are likely to endup with something no better than the stock shortblock. The stock stuff is pretty good, biggest issue being the rod bolts are not up to reliably handling more than about 6500rpms.
Don't get me wrong I would like a stroker but a cheap one is not likely to be an upgrade and money spent on inferior parts like an inported crank would go further if put into topend and valvetrain. So if on a tight budget most guys are better served by not doing a full shortblock build.
01-24-2009, 11:06 AM
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im going all out on the engine now and ill work with the rest of the car as i go. the reasion im doing the engine now is im planing on getting married and i have a baby one the way and me and my girlfriend agreed that i could do the engine no no matter what the cost because i dont no when i will get the chance to do this again. i hope that makes sense
01-24-2009, 11:24 AM
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im going all out on the engine now and ill work with the rest of the car as i go. the reasion im doing the engine now is im planing on getting married and i have a baby one the way and me and my girlfriend agreed that i could do the engine no no matter what the cost because i dont no when i will get the chance to do this again. i hope that makes sense
01-24-2009, 11:32 AM
#15
To do a good shortblock I would start with no less than the Compstar speedpack. Granted it is not the cheapest but it is a good value, your machinist will not find dimensional issues, you can get it all balanced by Callies.
This is probably $1k more than you were planning to spend though but you wont endup like the guys who do the cast Eagle strokers and 800 miles later are posting pictures of it all in pieces or even 5K later with the forged stuff with the bearing eaten because of rough machining or a bent crank.
There are evn guys who buy a stroker kit with 4.00" pistons and just hone the block a little and slap it together, it lasts for awhile, but not the 13 years that the next guy gets out of a nice Lingenfelter shortblock.
With a wife to be and a little gearhead on the way you know your priorities are about to change in a big way, going to be a LONG time before you start looking at major modification of the car again so if you blowup a cheap motor this summer or fall the car is going to rot in the garage a long time before you get around to fixing it.
All the more reason to do it right now, to save on the budget you could consider reusing the stock crank and then spend $1000 on good rods and pistons, you would be further ahead than you will putting together a cheap stroker.
I know it seems like I am arguing with you but I just hate to see guys make mistakes and endup getting rid of a car because they can't afford to do it over a second time to get it right. One guy I used to go racing with drives a Grand Prix now, if he had used a good tranny builder instead of the hack he went too I think he would still have his LS1 TA.
Another friend is just about completely redoing a 4-5yo BBC crate motor, smoked, detonated a little and found irrepairble damage to one head, rods being resized, new pair of heads bought, the valvetrain was the goal of tearing it apart but it spiraled out of control once they found other troubles. A $1k worth of valvetrain upgrades turned into $4K fast and in the end it would have been a LOT cheaper to build from scratch than to patch up the crate motor once you consider the substantial cost of the crate motor and the low miles on it.
This is probably $1k more than you were planning to spend though but you wont endup like the guys who do the cast Eagle strokers and 800 miles later are posting pictures of it all in pieces or even 5K later with the forged stuff with the bearing eaten because of rough machining or a bent crank.
There are evn guys who buy a stroker kit with 4.00" pistons and just hone the block a little and slap it together, it lasts for awhile, but not the 13 years that the next guy gets out of a nice Lingenfelter shortblock.
With a wife to be and a little gearhead on the way you know your priorities are about to change in a big way, going to be a LONG time before you start looking at major modification of the car again so if you blowup a cheap motor this summer or fall the car is going to rot in the garage a long time before you get around to fixing it.
All the more reason to do it right now, to save on the budget you could consider reusing the stock crank and then spend $1000 on good rods and pistons, you would be further ahead than you will putting together a cheap stroker.
I know it seems like I am arguing with you but I just hate to see guys make mistakes and endup getting rid of a car because they can't afford to do it over a second time to get it right. One guy I used to go racing with drives a Grand Prix now, if he had used a good tranny builder instead of the hack he went too I think he would still have his LS1 TA.
Another friend is just about completely redoing a 4-5yo BBC crate motor, smoked, detonated a little and found irrepairble damage to one head, rods being resized, new pair of heads bought, the valvetrain was the goal of tearing it apart but it spiraled out of control once they found other troubles. A $1k worth of valvetrain upgrades turned into $4K fast and in the end it would have been a LOT cheaper to build from scratch than to patch up the crate motor once you consider the substantial cost of the crate motor and the low miles on it.
01-24-2009, 01:41 PM
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Ok i still have all the internals that came out of my block the internals have only 120 miles on them execpt for the crank it has 165k on it. the reason i tour it apart is i messed up the head gaskets when i rebuilt it. Now in your opinion if i don't build a stroker and keep it a 350 should i change from a 2 bolt main to a 4 bolt main? should i use the pistons i took out of the block or change to a forged upgrade? now you got me thinking im not what sure to do now. 11's would be great but with a baby on the way should i maby look at running 12's and how much cheaper would that be? let me now what you think
01-24-2009, 02:54 PM
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A stock bottom end lt1 can hit mid to high 10's with heads cam and 150 shot. forge the entire bottom end and spray the **** out of it with heads and cam and be quicker than mid 11's