Patriot LT1 Heads
07-11-2009, 04:00 PM
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Patriot LT1 Heads http://www.thunderracing.com/catalog...oduct&pid=7346
How big a cam can I run with these on a 2.73 and a Yank Stealth 3000? I am shifting at 6K and intend to stay at 6K.
Street manners of the cam does not matter, its not my daily driver.
How big a cam can I run with these on a 2.73 and a Yank Stealth 3000? I am shifting at 6K and intend to stay at 6K.
Street manners of the cam does not matter, its not my daily driver.
Last edited by ADM; 07-11-2009 at 04:07 PM.
07-11-2009, 05:46 PM
#2
Stock gears, moderately low stall, low self imposed rev limit sounds like stock HEADS and cam are where it is at for you.
I don't think there is one shred of data to suggest the Patriots are vaguely worthwhile anyway. Seen lots of quality issues reported on their other heads though. I would not risk my shortblock by running them if they were free. Bad things happen when the valve seat falls out.
I don't think there is one shred of data to suggest the Patriots are vaguely worthwhile anyway. Seen lots of quality issues reported on their other heads though. I would not risk my shortblock by running them if they were free. Bad things happen when the valve seat falls out.
07-11-2009, 06:37 PM
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The thing is, this could be a cheaper option than to have LT1 casts worked on.
I am currently discussing a headworks package with LE for an LE1/2 package with a custom cam for my desires. But to afford that, plus I live far away and the shipping is like 450$ minus the cost of the work and cores to begin with, its almost the price of doing the whole cam swap without touching the heads.
I have been wanting to do this cam swap forever, but I don't want to have to change things later on. I want to do it once, and do it right.
I am currently discussing a headworks package with LE for an LE1/2 package with a custom cam for my desires. But to afford that, plus I live far away and the shipping is like 450$ minus the cost of the work and cores to begin with, its almost the price of doing the whole cam swap without touching the heads.
I have been wanting to do this cam swap forever, but I don't want to have to change things later on. I want to do it once, and do it right.
07-11-2009, 07:11 PM
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With heads and cam I think you will need to shift above 6000..I have small cam & stock heads and it likes 6100..Take your time, think things thru. Ask questions,there is alot of good advice here like 96 capricemgr.
07-11-2009, 07:32 PM
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The LS1 guys like Patriot, I think we have yet to have one member here actually run them. So this is all Bias off what the Mustang guys think and they hate Patriot where as the LS1 Guys seem to like them. Go firgure.
I am very much debating trying them myself for 895 shipped.
I am very much debating trying them myself for 895 shipped.
07-11-2009, 07:59 PM
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I don't want to do the swap and then regret not forking out more $$ for parts. I don't like to cheap out on stuff, but I am working with a budget as well, and unfortunately, quite a chunk of it will go just for shipping.
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07-12-2009, 05:46 AM
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How about I take a dremel to the heads and the intake runners, just match port with the gasket?
I am going to be running a CC503, and I know its the best for stock heads. And any work to the heads will squeeze out more from the cam. But could I also run a CC306 or do I need gears for make use of the CC306?
As I said before, no shifting over 6K. And Comps Cams state its basic operating range is 1800-5800, and the same goes for the CC503. But basic is not optimum of course, but I am not building a drag car that needs spinning to the moon either.
I am going to be running a CC503, and I know its the best for stock heads. And any work to the heads will squeeze out more from the cam. But could I also run a CC306 or do I need gears for make use of the CC306?
As I said before, no shifting over 6K. And Comps Cams state its basic operating range is 1800-5800, and the same goes for the CC503. But basic is not optimum of course, but I am not building a drag car that needs spinning to the moon either.
07-12-2009, 07:45 AM
#10
Comp's RPM ranges are all drasticly lower than reality. Best guess is they based them off of the rpm ranges the cams would need if put in a gen 1 motor with long intake runners bringing the rpm band down compared to the LT1 ultra short runners. The 503 is going to need to see over 6300 with any decent head.
Your own misconceptions about what is aggressive and what is not, your inability to understand quality vs. popularity/marketting are all going to stop you from pulling this off with any level of success. My advise is put off modifying the car another year, maybe see if you can find someone around with a modified car to let you get some idea of what it will be like.
There was a time when I was scared of a little rpm and stall, and gears, it was all lack of experiance that lead to my concern. 6300 or so is NOT high rpms for an LT1, the factory gears lug the motor doing more harm than good a moderate upgrade there makes the car drive BETTER without affecting fuel economy.
I actually did a mild cam swap with stock gears and stall and that was a MISTAKE. My overworrying about all the things you are worrying about has lead to me buyiong the same basic parts over and over again. Several sets of rockers, several sets of springs, a few cams, several torque converters, multiple gear ratios. The list goes on and on. Wasted a ton of money. If I could have gotten to ride along in some modified cars first and gotten a better handle on exactly what 3.73 gears felt like instead of 2.93 I would have been more likely to try them first, or what a GOOD torque converter felt like at a decent stall. These days there is a 3400 in it and the alignment shop guys were surprised they said if anything the car felt like it wanted to GO not that it was sloppy like most expect from that much stall.
If you can get past your concerns about making it a "drag" car by getting some time in other people's cars it will save you a LOT of time and money. My car gets dismissed as a drag car by those who have never seen it because of the performance. Those who are local and know the car see it leaving for work at 5:15 in the morning, not a "drag" car though I do take it to the track.
Your own misconceptions about what is aggressive and what is not, your inability to understand quality vs. popularity/marketting are all going to stop you from pulling this off with any level of success. My advise is put off modifying the car another year, maybe see if you can find someone around with a modified car to let you get some idea of what it will be like.
There was a time when I was scared of a little rpm and stall, and gears, it was all lack of experiance that lead to my concern. 6300 or so is NOT high rpms for an LT1, the factory gears lug the motor doing more harm than good a moderate upgrade there makes the car drive BETTER without affecting fuel economy.
I actually did a mild cam swap with stock gears and stall and that was a MISTAKE. My overworrying about all the things you are worrying about has lead to me buyiong the same basic parts over and over again. Several sets of rockers, several sets of springs, a few cams, several torque converters, multiple gear ratios. The list goes on and on. Wasted a ton of money. If I could have gotten to ride along in some modified cars first and gotten a better handle on exactly what 3.73 gears felt like instead of 2.93 I would have been more likely to try them first, or what a GOOD torque converter felt like at a decent stall. These days there is a 3400 in it and the alignment shop guys were surprised they said if anything the car felt like it wanted to GO not that it was sloppy like most expect from that much stall.
If you can get past your concerns about making it a "drag" car by getting some time in other people's cars it will save you a LOT of time and money. My car gets dismissed as a drag car by those who have never seen it because of the performance. Those who are local and know the car see it leaving for work at 5:15 in the morning, not a "drag" car though I do take it to the track.
07-12-2009, 08:39 AM
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Comp's RPM ranges are all drasticly lower than reality. Best guess is they based them off of the rpm ranges the cams would need if put in a gen 1 motor with long intake runners bringing the rpm band down compared to the LT1 ultra short runners. The 503 is going to need to see over 6300 with any decent head.
Your own misconceptions about what is aggressive and what is not, your inability to understand quality vs. popularity/marketting are all going to stop you from pulling this off with any level of success. My advise is put off modifying the car another year, maybe see if you can find someone around with a modified car to let you get some idea of what it will be like.
There was a time when I was scared of a little rpm and stall, and gears, it was all lack of experiance that lead to my concern. 6300 or so is NOT high rpms for an LT1, the factory gears lug the motor doing more harm than good a moderate upgrade there makes the car drive BETTER without affecting fuel economy.
I actually did a mild cam swap with stock gears and stall and that was a MISTAKE. My overworrying about all the things you are worrying about has lead to me buyiong the same basic parts over and over again. Several sets of rockers, several sets of springs, a few cams, several torque converters, multiple gear ratios. The list goes on and on. Wasted a ton of money. If I could have gotten to ride along in some modified cars first and gotten a better handle on exactly what 3.73 gears felt like instead of 2.93 I would have been more likely to try them first, or what a GOOD torque converter felt like at a decent stall. These days there is a 3400 in it and the alignment shop guys were surprised they said if anything the car felt like it wanted to GO not that it was sloppy like most expect from that much stall.
If you can get past your concerns about making it a "drag" car by getting some time in other people's cars it will save you a LOT of time and money. My car gets dismissed as a drag car by those who have never seen it because of the performance. Those who are local and know the car see it leaving for work at 5:15 in the morning, not a "drag" car though I do take it to the track.
Your own misconceptions about what is aggressive and what is not, your inability to understand quality vs. popularity/marketting are all going to stop you from pulling this off with any level of success. My advise is put off modifying the car another year, maybe see if you can find someone around with a modified car to let you get some idea of what it will be like.
There was a time when I was scared of a little rpm and stall, and gears, it was all lack of experiance that lead to my concern. 6300 or so is NOT high rpms for an LT1, the factory gears lug the motor doing more harm than good a moderate upgrade there makes the car drive BETTER without affecting fuel economy.
I actually did a mild cam swap with stock gears and stall and that was a MISTAKE. My overworrying about all the things you are worrying about has lead to me buyiong the same basic parts over and over again. Several sets of rockers, several sets of springs, a few cams, several torque converters, multiple gear ratios. The list goes on and on. Wasted a ton of money. If I could have gotten to ride along in some modified cars first and gotten a better handle on exactly what 3.73 gears felt like instead of 2.93 I would have been more likely to try them first, or what a GOOD torque converter felt like at a decent stall. These days there is a 3400 in it and the alignment shop guys were surprised they said if anything the car felt like it wanted to GO not that it was sloppy like most expect from that much stall.
If you can get past your concerns about making it a "drag" car by getting some time in other people's cars it will save you a LOT of time and money. My car gets dismissed as a drag car by those who have never seen it because of the performance. Those who are local and know the car see it leaving for work at 5:15 in the morning, not a "drag" car though I do take it to the track.
I am trying to stay safe with the RPM shift points to avoid the risk of damaging my engine. I have heard from everyone to up the RPM shift points and that the LT1 can spin over 6K safely. But when something does go wrong and it does break, they won't be chipping in to pay for the damages of their advice, will they?
And what do I need to spin that high for? I am driving the car on the street, so I am thinking of what I can make use of, not how much power I can squeeze out of my ride at the top end. Useful power is what I am looking for, response.
I had to pass my inspection with a V6 muffler and beg the supervisor at the traffic department to pass my car because I had no cats or mufflers down the middle. Whats it going to look like next year with long tubes and a cam loping away? It won't pass, guaranteed.
I am building the car to have fun with it. Sure, I want some good numbers, but I cannot just spend every penny I have into the car as I have other priorities.
This car will probably never see the track, probably once or twice a year if its lucky.
I have ridden in a 2001 TA, full Boltons, LS6 Heads & tsp Cam 383 ci electric pump fast90/90 under drive 3800 yank 3.42 433 RWHP and 420 RWTQ, did a best of 10.4 with a 200 shot, and its a full weight daily driver. Yes, its was one scary *** ride, but I do not have similar goals.
If it ain't broke, I ain't fixing it
so the gears will stay.
07-12-2009, 08:51 AM
#13
Fuel economy does not matter, when I can fill up the tank to the brim with premium gas for about 16$.
I am trying to stay safe with the RPM shift points to avoid the risk of damaging my engine. I have heard from everyone to up the RPM shift points and that the LT1 can spin over 6K safely. But when something does go wrong and it does break, they won't be chipping in to pay for the damages of their advice, will they?
And what do I need to spin that high for? I am driving the car on the street, so I am thinking of what I can make use of, not how much power I can squeeze out of my ride at the top end. Useful power is what I am looking for, response.
I had to pass my inspection with a V6 muffler and beg the supervisor at the traffic department to pass my car because I had no cats or mufflers down the middle. Whats it going to look like next year with long tubes and a cam loping away? It won't pass, guaranteed.
I am building the car to have fun with it. Sure, I want some good numbers, but I cannot just spend every penny I have into the car as I have other priorities.
This car will probably never see the track, probably once or twice a year if its lucky.
I have ridden in a 2001 TA, full Boltons, LS6 Heads & tsp Cam 383 ci electric pump fast90/90 under drive 3800 yank 3.42 433 RWHP and 420 RWTQ, did a best of 10.4 with a 200 shot, and its a full weight daily driver. Yes, its was one scary *** ride, but I do not have similar goals.
If it ain't broke, I ain't fixing it so the gears will stay.
I am trying to stay safe with the RPM shift points to avoid the risk of damaging my engine. I have heard from everyone to up the RPM shift points and that the LT1 can spin over 6K safely. But when something does go wrong and it does break, they won't be chipping in to pay for the damages of their advice, will they?
And what do I need to spin that high for? I am driving the car on the street, so I am thinking of what I can make use of, not how much power I can squeeze out of my ride at the top end. Useful power is what I am looking for, response.
I had to pass my inspection with a V6 muffler and beg the supervisor at the traffic department to pass my car because I had no cats or mufflers down the middle. Whats it going to look like next year with long tubes and a cam loping away? It won't pass, guaranteed.
I am building the car to have fun with it. Sure, I want some good numbers, but I cannot just spend every penny I have into the car as I have other priorities.
This car will probably never see the track, probably once or twice a year if its lucky.
I have ridden in a 2001 TA, full Boltons, LS6 Heads & tsp Cam 383 ci electric pump fast90/90 under drive 3800 yank 3.42 433 RWHP and 420 RWTQ, did a best of 10.4 with a 200 shot, and its a full weight daily driver. Yes, its was one scary *** ride, but I do not have similar goals.
If it ain't broke, I ain't fixing it
so the gears will stay.
07-12-2009, 01:50 PM
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It sounds as though you are listening to the wrong advise when modding a car. Most of the people chiming in on this post have experience. If you dont want to listen to the advise given from experienced LT1 guys than why ask? ANY after market performance cam wants more than 6000 rpm. I have a 3300 Edge stall and 3.73 gears and it drives very well on the street. When you put your foot down it is pure fun!
07-13-2009, 12:59 AM
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How about I take a dremel to the heads and the intake runners, just match port with the gasket?
I am going to be running a CC503, and I know its the best for stock heads. And any work to the heads will squeeze out more from the cam. But could I also run a CC306 or do I need gears for make use of the CC306?
As I said before, no shifting over 6K. And Comps Cams state its basic operating range is 1800-5800, and the same goes for the CC503. But basic is not optimum of course, but I am not building a drag car that needs spinning to the moon either.
I am going to be running a CC503, and I know its the best for stock heads. And any work to the heads will squeeze out more from the cam. But could I also run a CC306 or do I need gears for make use of the CC306?
As I said before, no shifting over 6K. And Comps Cams state its basic operating range is 1800-5800, and the same goes for the CC503. But basic is not optimum of course, but I am not building a drag car that needs spinning to the moon either.
yet...
07-13-2009, 11:23 AM
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The shipping would turn out better for me if I get them from Thunder Racing, since I am already getting a Vigilante 3600 from them instead of a 3000. I am ordering a 3.42 ring and pinion, will install it when I get bored of the 2.73s. I could spin these a coupe of hundred RPMs more, with a good cam. But I still have not been told how big I can go with a cam with these heads? Lets say spinning 6200-6300.
Last edited by ADM; 07-13-2009 at 11:34 AM.
07-13-2009, 11:43 AM
#20
It sounds as though you are listening to the wrong advise when modding a car. Most of the people chiming in on this post have experience. If you dont want to listen to the advise given from experienced LT1 guys than why ask? ANY after market performance cam wants more than 6000 rpm. I have a 3300 Edge stall and 3.73 gears and it drives very well on the street. When you put your foot down it is pure fun!
I don't recommend much past 6300 for a stock shortblock for extended periods of time, due to the bolts liking to stretch (happened to me). but that's just imo
you're best bet is to speak with a cam grinder and have them help you get into a setup that will compliment your goals, they can grind a cam that will shift were you want it, drive like you want it, pass emissions, etc.
gears on a bolt on car are quite a boost let alone a cammed or h/c car. my buddy has a cc306 car with 2.73s and the thing pulls like a big turbo supra, so I wouldn't recommend it.
as for the cc503, I had one with stock heads and the car was still pulling on the dyno past 6400rpm.