Cam and RR question for the Iron Head LT1. Stock engine being replaced with Impala SS
05-06-2011, 01:40 PM
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Cam and RR question for the Iron Head LT1. Stock engine being replaced with Impala SS I decided to start a new thread since these questions pertain more to the modding on an engine, versus my engine swap thread:
I have a ’94 Z28 which recently developed a rod knock
. As bad as it sucks, I was lucky enough to find someone parting out a ’94 Impala SS just a few hours from my house. I’m taking a ride up this afternoon with a buddy’s pickup truck to hear it run, and hopefully take the engine home 
.
Since the motor will be on the bench for a few days before the swap, I was considering a few upgrades. I already have Pacesetter Long tube headers, ORY, Borla cat-back, and a K&N FIPK intake elbow kit. After all that, my budget is now pretty small (around $700 bucks left), but I was hoping to free up a few ponies with a cam and roller rockers. Here’s the list I have so far:
* Comp 1318-16 Pro Magnum Rocker Arms-Self Aligning -- $303.40
* 10309-1 Spring & Retainer Kit (Similar to popular 10308-1 kit, but for iron heads instead of alum) -- $245.95
* cc 503 Cam (Comp Cam Xtreme Energy 07-503-8) -- $281.83 but maybe I can find a used one
The only downside is that the popular 10308-1 kit comes with valve springs, retainers, valve locks, and spring shims. Whereas the 10309-1 (iron head version of the kit) seems to only come with valve springs and retainers (judging by a screenshot of their website below). Why doesn't the 10309-1 kit include valve locks and spring shims? I know that’s more of a question for Crane themselves, but I was hoping someone here might know. Summit seems to say it does. If you punch “10309-1” into the Summit website, it lists “steel locks” in the description. The aluminum and iron valve springs/retainers have different individual part numbers in both kits, so I'd imagine that the 10308-1 F-Body kit wouldn't be compatible with the Impala’s iron head. Honestly I didn’t know that the springs and retainer differed from the B-bodies and F-bodies.
Assuming the 10309-1 kit doesn’t have locks or spring shims (which I hope it does); can I re-use the Impala’s stock locks and shims? I’m kinda hoping I can re-use 'em since I’ve already ran out of money at this point lol. If not, will the Crane Cam Shims (99050-1), and Comp valve locks (cca648-16) or Crane Cams Locks (99097-1) work on iron heads? They seem to be used mostly with the aluminum heads.
Sorry for the novel of a post lol, I tried to get everything one thread. Please answer as much as you can. I really appreciate it.
Pics to come!
I have a ’94 Z28 which recently developed a rod knock
. As bad as it sucks, I was lucky enough to find someone parting out a ’94 Impala SS just a few hours from my house. I’m taking a ride up this afternoon with a buddy’s pickup truck to hear it run, and hopefully take the engine home .Since the motor will be on the bench for a few days before the swap, I was considering a few upgrades. I already have Pacesetter Long tube headers, ORY, Borla cat-back, and a K&N FIPK intake elbow kit. After all that, my budget is now pretty small (around $700 bucks left), but I was hoping to free up a few ponies with a cam and roller rockers. Here’s the list I have so far:
* Comp 1318-16 Pro Magnum Rocker Arms-Self Aligning -- $303.40
* 10309-1 Spring & Retainer Kit (Similar to popular 10308-1 kit, but for iron heads instead of alum) -- $245.95
* cc 503 Cam (Comp Cam Xtreme Energy 07-503-8) -- $281.83 but maybe I can find a used one
The only downside is that the popular 10308-1 kit comes with valve springs, retainers, valve locks, and spring shims. Whereas the 10309-1 (iron head version of the kit) seems to only come with valve springs and retainers (judging by a screenshot of their website below). Why doesn't the 10309-1 kit include valve locks and spring shims? I know that’s more of a question for Crane themselves, but I was hoping someone here might know. Summit seems to say it does. If you punch “10309-1” into the Summit website, it lists “steel locks” in the description. The aluminum and iron valve springs/retainers have different individual part numbers in both kits, so I'd imagine that the 10308-1 F-Body kit wouldn't be compatible with the Impala’s iron head. Honestly I didn’t know that the springs and retainer differed from the B-bodies and F-bodies.
Assuming the 10309-1 kit doesn’t have locks or spring shims (which I hope it does); can I re-use the Impala’s stock locks and shims? I’m kinda hoping I can re-use 'em since I’ve already ran out of money at this point lol. If not, will the Crane Cam Shims (99050-1), and Comp valve locks (cca648-16) or Crane Cams Locks (99097-1) work on iron heads? They seem to be used mostly with the aluminum heads.
Sorry for the novel of a post lol, I tried to get everything one thread. Please answer as much as you can. I really appreciate it.
Pics to come!
05-06-2011, 01:50 PM
#2
I decided to start a new thread since these questions pertain more to the modding on an engine, versus my engine swap thread:
I have a ’94 Z28 which recently developed a rod knock. As bad as it sucks, I was lucky enough to find someone parting out a ’94 Impala SS just a few hours from my house. I’m taking a ride up this afternoon with a buddy’s pickup truck to hear it run, and hopefully take the engine home .
Since the motor will be on the bench for a few days before the swap, I was considering a few upgrades. I already have Pacesetter Long tube headers, ORY, Borla cat-back, and a K&N FIPK intake elbow kit. After all that, my budget is now pretty small (around $700 bucks left), but I was hoping to free up a few ponies with a cam and roller rockers. Here’s the list I have so far:
* Comp 1318-16 Pro Magnum Rocker Arms-Self Aligning -- $303.40
* 10309-1 Spring & Retainer Kit (Similar to popular 10308-1 kit, but for iron heads instead of alum) -- $245.95
* cc 503 Cam (Comp Cam Xtreme Energy 07-503-8) -- $281.83 but maybe I can find a used one
The only downside is that the popular 10308-1 kit comes with valve springs, retainers, valve locks, and spring shims. Whereas the 10309-1 (iron head version of the kit) seems to only come with valve springs and retainers (judging by a screenshot of their website below). Why doesn't the 10309-1 kit include valve locks and spring shims? I know that’s more of a question for Crane themselves, but I was hoping someone here might know. Summit seems to say it does. If you punch “10309-1” into the Summit website, it lists “steel locks” in the description. The aluminum and iron valve springs/retainers have different individual part numbers in both kits, so I'd imagine that the 10308-1 F-Body kit wouldn't be compatible with the Impala’s iron head. Honestly I didn’t know that the springs and retainer differed from the B-bodies and F-bodies.
Assuming the 10309-1 kit doesn’t have locks or spring shims (which I hope it does); can I re-use the Impala’s stock locks and shims? I’m kinda hoping I can re-use 'em since I’ve already ran out of money at this point lol. If not, will the Crane Cam Shims (99050-1), and Comp valve locks (cca648-16) or Crane Cams Locks (99097-1) work on iron heads? They seem to be used mostly with the aluminum heads.
Sorry for the novel of a post lol, I tried to get everything one thread. Please answer as much as you can. I really appreciate it.
Pics to come!
I have a ’94 Z28 which recently developed a rod knock
. As bad as it sucks, I was lucky enough to find someone parting out a ’94 Impala SS just a few hours from my house. I’m taking a ride up this afternoon with a buddy’s pickup truck to hear it run, and hopefully take the engine home .Since the motor will be on the bench for a few days before the swap, I was considering a few upgrades. I already have Pacesetter Long tube headers, ORY, Borla cat-back, and a K&N FIPK intake elbow kit. After all that, my budget is now pretty small (around $700 bucks left), but I was hoping to free up a few ponies with a cam and roller rockers. Here’s the list I have so far:
* Comp 1318-16 Pro Magnum Rocker Arms-Self Aligning -- $303.40
* 10309-1 Spring & Retainer Kit (Similar to popular 10308-1 kit, but for iron heads instead of alum) -- $245.95
* cc 503 Cam (Comp Cam Xtreme Energy 07-503-8) -- $281.83 but maybe I can find a used one
The only downside is that the popular 10308-1 kit comes with valve springs, retainers, valve locks, and spring shims. Whereas the 10309-1 (iron head version of the kit) seems to only come with valve springs and retainers (judging by a screenshot of their website below). Why doesn't the 10309-1 kit include valve locks and spring shims? I know that’s more of a question for Crane themselves, but I was hoping someone here might know. Summit seems to say it does. If you punch “10309-1” into the Summit website, it lists “steel locks” in the description. The aluminum and iron valve springs/retainers have different individual part numbers in both kits, so I'd imagine that the 10308-1 F-Body kit wouldn't be compatible with the Impala’s iron head. Honestly I didn’t know that the springs and retainer differed from the B-bodies and F-bodies.
Assuming the 10309-1 kit doesn’t have locks or spring shims (which I hope it does); can I re-use the Impala’s stock locks and shims? I’m kinda hoping I can re-use 'em since I’ve already ran out of money at this point lol. If not, will the Crane Cam Shims (99050-1), and Comp valve locks (cca648-16) or Crane Cams Locks (99097-1) work on iron heads? They seem to be used mostly with the aluminum heads.
Sorry for the novel of a post lol, I tried to get everything one thread. Please answer as much as you can. I really appreciate it.
Pics to come!
the 10308 kit is a dual 1.46" spring which will not fit in the stock seat an prob not at the stock install height which is why it comes with those parts im assuming.............i cant see why they would tell you not to run one on a steel vs alum head other than maybe the design of the head in stock form wont fit the big spring without machining........
id call crane and ask them they have a better knowledge of their products than i do lol......
Last edited by quik95lt1; 05-06-2011 at 01:57 PM.
05-08-2011, 05:43 PM
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05-09-2011, 07:08 PM
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Thanks guys . I appreciate the help. I picked up the engine this past weekend! I'm processing the pictures and video now.
I heard that the iron heads flow slightly better than aluminum. The iron heads flow maximum at .520 intake lift, where the Camaro's stock aluminum heads reach max flow at .500 Lift. I'll have to double check the source, but I was planning to keep the iron heads since the difference wasn't too wild. Plus the more I can trim the budget, the faster I can get her back on the road. I've already spent my next two paychecks.
Ohh. So not only are the heights different, the spring kit for the aluminum head has more pieces to compensate for the springs digging into the aluminum it seems. Whereas the iron head doesn't need the reinforcement. Plus it looks like I can use the stock locks as well if needed.
Does anyone know if the crank hub on the Impala SS is different than the F-body's? Idoxlr8 over at LS1LT1 mentioned that the Camaro's crank hub is shorter than the Impala's hub. I wasn't specifically looking for it this past weekend, but I didn't notice a difference offhand. Can anyone confirm this?
The accessories sound a little worn on the Impala's engine (I'll post a video soon) so I was planning to swap the accessories from the Camaro. Especially since I put a new A/C compressor in it over the winter. I'm hoping the accessory bracket is a direct swap.
Lastly, and least important, I'm still debating on 2 cams. The cc503 and Crane 227. The 227 seems to be more streetable from what I read. Plus it's a beast at low and mid RPM I hear. The downside is that the cc503 might produce 20rwhp over the 227. Though I imagine the mid (and especially low) power would be much less than the 227. I've driven turbo cars and just didn't like the wait for high end power. Having the power band down low is more "pull you to your seat" fun versus the extra 20rwhp up top. Anyone try both cams?
. I appreciate the help. I picked up the engine this past weekend! I'm processing the pictures and video now.I heard that the iron heads flow slightly better than aluminum. The iron heads flow maximum at .520 intake lift, where the Camaro's stock aluminum heads reach max flow at .500 Lift. I'll have to double check the source, but I was planning to keep the iron heads since the difference wasn't too wild. Plus the more I can trim the budget, the faster I can get her back on the road
. I've already spent my next two paychecks.Ohh. So not only are the heights different, the spring kit for the aluminum head has more pieces to compensate for the springs digging into the aluminum it seems. Whereas the iron head doesn't need the reinforcement. Plus it looks like I can use the stock locks as well if needed.
Does anyone know if the crank hub on the Impala SS is different than the F-body's? Idoxlr8 over at LS1LT1 mentioned that the Camaro's crank hub is shorter than the Impala's hub. I wasn't specifically looking for it this past weekend, but I didn't notice a difference offhand. Can anyone confirm this?
The accessories sound a little worn on the Impala's engine (I'll post a video soon) so I was planning to swap the accessories from the Camaro. Especially since I put a new A/C compressor in it over the winter. I'm hoping the accessory bracket is a direct swap.
Lastly, and least important, I'm still debating on 2 cams. The cc503 and Crane 227. The 227 seems to be more streetable from what I read. Plus it's a beast at low and mid RPM I hear
. The downside is that the cc503 might produce 20rwhp over the 227. Though I imagine the mid (and especially low) power would be much less than the 227. I've driven turbo cars and just didn't like the wait for high end power. Having the power band down low is more "pull you to your seat" fun versus the extra 20rwhp up top. Anyone try both cams? Trending Topics
05-09-2011, 08:32 PM
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go with the aluminum heads with patriot golds. seriously it is worth it. the spark plug/header issue will cost you more money and headaches in the long run then you think. and yes the impala hub is different.
05-09-2011, 08:49 PM
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Considering your budget this is what I would do:
1. Post a wanted ad for the cc503 in the parts section here. Also ask for similar grinds to give you options. You should be able to save about $100 right there. Also....you may get a good deal on some springs this way.
2. Use your aluminum heads if you know they are okay. Use .028" GM gaskets made for the Impala engine and gain some compression. Or similar head gaskets from Mr. Gasket or Victor Reinz .026". I use Fel Pro for all my other gaskets.
3. Run your stock rockers while you save up for the good stuff. (I know this will catch alot of flack on here, but GM used them on the zz4 crate motors with a cam that's not much smaller than you're wanting and those engines hold up just fine.) Rockers are easily swapped later. Also...you can might want to upgrade to non-self aligning rockers along with guideplates and better pushrods at that time.
4. If you are really going to spend about $250 on valvesprings, I'd get the Patriot Gold extremes like someone else mentioned. The cranes are great and I have a set that came on some heads I bought, but for the money the patriots seem to be the best deal.
5. Don't forget to budget for a tune if you can't do it or don't have a friend who can.
Forgot to comment on the hub and accesories.....just swap it all over from your F-body.
1. Post a wanted ad for the cc503 in the parts section here. Also ask for similar grinds to give you options. You should be able to save about $100 right there. Also....you may get a good deal on some springs this way.
2. Use your aluminum heads if you know they are okay. Use .028" GM gaskets made for the Impala engine and gain some compression. Or similar head gaskets from Mr. Gasket or Victor Reinz .026". I use Fel Pro for all my other gaskets.
3. Run your stock rockers while you save up for the good stuff. (I know this will catch alot of flack on here, but GM used them on the zz4 crate motors with a cam that's not much smaller than you're wanting and those engines hold up just fine.) Rockers are easily swapped later. Also...you can might want to upgrade to non-self aligning rockers along with guideplates and better pushrods at that time.
4. If you are really going to spend about $250 on valvesprings, I'd get the Patriot Gold extremes like someone else mentioned. The cranes are great and I have a set that came on some heads I bought, but for the money the patriots seem to be the best deal.
5. Don't forget to budget for a tune if you can't do it or don't have a friend who can.
Forgot to comment on the hub and accesories.....just swap it all over from your F-body.
05-09-2011, 10:09 PM
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I appreciate the input guys.
It looks like I have to go with the aluminum heads after all. I was kinda hoping the iron heads would work out since they have less than half the miles of the Camaro's heads. No to mention that the Camaro's stock engine is leaking oil, burnning oil, and has the slight knock/tap. I'd hate to transfer questionable parts onto the Impala's mint block.
I've never swapped heads before. I've heard that I'll need to have the block and/or heads "machined" before bolting them on? Between the two, would a .028" or .026" gasket be ideal?
I was set on the Crane Valve Springs since StealthFormula ran them and he liked them. They're also a few bucks cheaper than the Patriot Golds. I've actually never heard of Patriot Performance until today but I checked them out on 1961ba427's, joshh123's, jay7199's recommendation. It looks like they had a few hiccups back in 2008. Though that was quite a few years ago. It looks like the 8401 model, 8401-B model, 8501 model, and the 8501-B model are offered for the LT1. Which one would suit my needs best?
Edit: Looks like only two of those model numbers apply for the Extremes.
Thanks guys. Looks like I have quite a bit of work in front of me
It looks like I have to go with the aluminum heads after all. I was kinda hoping the iron heads would work out since they have less than half the miles of the Camaro's heads. No to mention that the Camaro's stock engine is leaking oil, burnning oil, and has the slight knock/tap. I'd hate to transfer questionable parts onto the Impala's mint block.
I've never swapped heads before. I've heard that I'll need to have the block and/or heads "machined" before bolting them on? Between the two, would a .028" or .026" gasket be ideal?
I was set on the Crane Valve Springs since StealthFormula ran them and he liked them. They're also a few bucks cheaper than the Patriot Golds. I've actually never heard of Patriot Performance until today but I checked them out on 1961ba427's, joshh123's, jay7199's recommendation. It looks like they had a few hiccups back in 2008. Though that was quite a few years ago. It looks like the 8401 model, 8401-B model, 8501 model, and the 8501-B model are offered for the LT1. Which one would suit my needs best?
Edit: Looks like only two of those model numbers apply for the Extremes.
Thanks guys. Looks like I have quite a bit of work in front of me
05-09-2011, 10:21 PM
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You shouldn't need to have the block decked, but have the heads checked for straightness and milled if needed. Sounds like it will be valve job time too. At least the machine shop can set up your new springs correctly for you which will take care of alot of your questions there.
I don't have anything at all against the crane springs. In fact, I have no experience with the patriots. I suggested them due to their reputation and to give you another option. Comp 918 beehives are another good alternative that fall in that price range. Also, Loyd Elliot suggests a Howards spring and components for a good budget set-up that he has had good results with. I can't remember the part number, but he will help ya if you call him.
I don't have anything at all against the crane springs. In fact, I have no experience with the patriots. I suggested them due to their reputation and to give you another option. Comp 918 beehives are another good alternative that fall in that price range. Also, Loyd Elliot suggests a Howards spring and components for a good budget set-up that he has had good results with. I can't remember the part number, but he will help ya if you call him.
05-10-2011, 10:34 PM
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Here's the video I promises you guys of the Impala SS engine pull. I had to re-upload it a few times because of copyright infringement due to a Green Day track I originally had at the end. The Impala was a theft recovery vehicle which had the interior gutted and rear bumper removed. The engine ran beautifully besides a worn out accessory or two. Perfect cure to my rod knocked Z28 .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_ebo9XvCcA
.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_ebo9XvCcA
05-11-2011, 12:44 PM
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I'm starting to think that I should've just held out and picked up an F-body LT1 instead of the Impala's LT1, or rebuilt the stock one I have in the Camaro. Besides from the short block, it looks like a lot has to be changed over. It seems my list of repairs keeps going the wrong way and getting longer and longer lol.
water pump
oil cooler
crank hub
accessories
heads
It seemed like such a great buy at the time too with the low mileage. However if I'm swapping over the old parts, it kinda defeats the process. If I'm gonna be under the heads anyway, wouldn't it have been easier to just repair the stock engine? I hope I made a smart call picking up the Impala engine. It's just hard to justify it at this point. Not all LT1's are alike it seems ha.
water pump
oil cooler
crank hub
accessories
heads
It seemed like such a great buy at the time too with the low mileage. However if I'm swapping over the old parts, it kinda defeats the process. If I'm gonna be under the heads anyway, wouldn't it have been easier to just repair the stock engine? I hope I made a smart call picking up the Impala engine. It's just hard to justify it at this point. Not all LT1's are alike it seems ha.
05-11-2011, 12:55 PM
#14
I'm starting to think that I should've just held out and picked up an F-body LT1 instead of the Impala's LT1, or rebuilt the stock one I have in the Camaro. Besides from the short block, it looks like a lot has to be changed over. It seems my list of repairs keeps going the wrong way and getting longer and longer lol.
water pump
oil cooler
crank hub
accessories
heads
It seemed like such a great buy at the time too with the low mileage. However if I'm swapping over the old parts, it kinda defeats the process. If I'm gonna be under the heads anyway, wouldn't it have been easier to just repair the stock engine? I hope I made a smart call picking up the Impala engine. It's just hard to justify it at this point. Not all LT1's are alike it seems ha.
water pump
oil cooler
crank hub
accessories
heads
It seemed like such a great buy at the time too with the low mileage. However if I'm swapping over the old parts, it kinda defeats the process. If I'm gonna be under the heads anyway, wouldn't it have been easier to just repair the stock engine? I hope I made a smart call picking up the Impala engine. It's just hard to justify it at this point. Not all LT1's are alike it seems ha.
...the oil cooler is useless you dont need it.......you gotta switch heads, balancer and a new water pump...........not a huge issue..........roll up ur sleeves and get to it
.....we are all here if you got questions i can do this stuff in my sleep lol......i admire your spirit!!! 
05-11-2011, 06:06 PM
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what kind of CAM? SO I HAVE A 97 Z28 WITH HEADERS AND FULL EXHAUST PORT AND POLISHED HEADS PORTED RUNNERS IN MY INTAKE MSD'd OUT 3.73 GEARS AND A 58MM BBK THROTTLE BODY ....... SO NOW THE MAIN TOPIC I WANT TO CAM IT OUT AND NEED HELP ON A GOOD CAM AND WHERE I CAN GET IT SO PLEASE HELP LET ME KNOW WHAT IS A GOOD CAM FOR MY SET UP
97 Z28 AUTOMATIC
97 Z28 AUTOMATIC
Last edited by 97z28sbcc; 05-11-2011 at 06:14 PM.
05-11-2011, 06:44 PM
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yea thats what i was saying earlier lol...........i mean if this shortblock is good its just a matter of work to switch everything....you gotta figure you're gonna be at least $700 by the time you tear it down hone it, buy rings, cut the crank, resize the rods, buy bearings and labor
...the oil cooler is useless you dont need it.......you gotta switch heads, balancer and a new water pump...........not a huge issue..........roll up ur sleeves and get to it.....we are all here if you got questions i can do this stuff in my sleep lol......i admire your spirit!!!
...the oil cooler is useless you dont need it.......you gotta switch heads, balancer and a new water pump...........not a huge issue..........roll up ur sleeves and get to it
.....we are all here if you got questions i can do this stuff in my sleep lol......i admire your spirit!!! . At least I know what has to be done. The oil cooler is really unnecessary? I figure with 95 degree days in traffic, it could come in handy. Though that's the least of my concerns right now. lol..SO I HAVE A 97 Z28 WITH HEADERS AND FULL EXHAUST PORT AND POLISHED HEADS PORTED RUNNERS IN MY INTAKE MSD'd OUT 3.73 GEARS AND A 58MM BBK THROTTLE BODY ....... SO NOW THE MAIN TOPIC I WANT TO CAM IT OUT AND NEED HELP ON A GOOD CAM AND WHERE I CAN GET IT SO PLEASE HELP LET ME KNOW WHAT IS A GOOD CAM FOR MY SET UP
97 Z28 AUTOMATIC
97 Z28 AUTOMATIC
05-11-2011, 07:01 PM
#18
Oil cooler is absolutely not necessary. It's just one more thing in the way. Hell the short block is the real expensive part so if you got a good deal on the Impala motor, swapping the stuff over isn't too bad. I'd hate to have the weight penalty of the iron heads also.
