Help with new 396 top end!!
09-30-2011, 08:58 PM
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Help with new 396 top end!! It's time for me to upgrade my forged 396lt1 top end.I've been doing tons of research and can't decide on which heads fit my needs best.I'm torn between Ai tfs215 and Afr227rr.Price is very similar and both have great results to match.Currently I'm running a set of Ai190s n matching intake which I no is a huge hold back of motors potential,but got a great deal on them.Will be posting them in classifieds shortly.Car is a strip car that will see some street so I'm not caring about street manners.Short block consist of -5cc je pistons,callies stealth crank,callies hd I-beams,arp studs n rings gapped for nitrous.So far car has went low 10s with a 150shot with this less than optimal combo and too tight a converter.My goal is to hit mid to low 9s with a 250shot and run 10s on the motor with new top end.I question if I will have valve pocket issues with the Afrs and the -5cc pistons.Any helpful advice appreciated!!! Thx
10-01-2011, 07:00 AM
#2
Here we go again, lol.
Prices aren't similar unless you are going on quoted advertised prices. I paid $1864 for mine 2 years ago. I run the Race ported set, the comp ported run about $350-$400 more. Ask a dealer how low they can go, they WILL NOT advertise on the web their lowest price. I'm sure I could find a comp set of 227's for around $2200-$2275 from one of the paid advertisers in here, you just have to send them an email and ask.
I had valve issues with my AFR's. I ran Mahle pistons with a -6cc valve relief. The amount of relief was fine but the exhaust valve didn't line up very well with the location of the piston notch. I can't speak for the AI 215cc TFS heads. Ask Mike V what pistons he ran and if he had to notch them. He may run custom pistons, i'm not sure though. He may have a part number you could go with.
You will get a lot of poeple in this thread bashing AFR for one reason or another. AFR makes a very good cylinder head, so does AI. A benefit for the AI heads is that they will accept stud rockers for street use, while the AFR's will want you to run a shaft system for street use. The AI TFS heads maintain the standard geometry, while the AFR's have an offset intake. In all honesty, if you are going to run a nasty combo and are spending a lot of money on quality parts, a shaft rocker system should be on your car, especially if you are going to go very healthy with the cam.
My car is currently running without any sort of tune on it, and it's quite rich. I ran a 10.67 at 128.70. The run was so-so until I shifted into 3rd, then it cleared up and pulled real strong on the back half. It picked up over 26mph on the back half. My car weighed around 3100 with me in it. I expect it to be running 10.3's once I get the tune sorted out. That's on pump gas, with the factory pcm (7000rpm cap in place). If I were to jack the compression up to over 13-1, step up on the camshaft and get some aftermarket pcm controller, i'm sure I could be knocking on bottom 10's. Not sure what engine management you run, but big heads deserve big cams, and the factory pcm is a crutch.
Last edited by joelster; 10-01-2011 at 07:06 AM.
10-01-2011, 10:13 AM
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Thanks for the advice...I'm planning this set up with an after market engine mgmt system in mind.I will be running a shaft mount setup with a solid roller cam..At this point I really want a good head that will work with my current pistons without issues.NOT trying to start the dreaded Afr vs Ai debate but instead gather more info with my goals and current shortblock in mind of the two.My race weight is also 3100 with me in it.I really want to get the ball rolling with this project so I will contact the mentioned sponsors for suggestions and pricing..
10-01-2011, 11:12 AM
#5
Here we go again, lol.
Prices aren't similar unless you are going on quoted advertised prices. I paid $1864 for mine 2 years ago. I run the Race ported set, the comp ported run about $350-$400 more. Ask a dealer how low they can go, they WILL NOT advertise on the web their lowest price. I'm sure I could find a comp set of 227's for around $2200-$2275 from one of the paid advertisers in here, you just have to send them an email and ask.
I had valve issues with my AFR's. I ran Mahle pistons with a -6cc valve relief. The amount of relief was fine but the exhaust valve didn't line up very well with the location of the piston notch. I can't speak for the AI 215cc TFS heads. Ask Mike V what pistons he ran and if he had to notch them. He may run custom pistons, i'm not sure though. He may have a part number you could go with.
You will get a lot of poeple in this thread bashing AFR for one reason or another. AFR makes a very good cylinder head, so does AI. A benefit for the AI heads is that they will accept stud rockers for street use, while the AFR's will want you to run a shaft system for street use. The AI TFS heads maintain the standard geometry, while the AFR's have an offset intake. In all honesty, if you are going to run a nasty combo and are spending a lot of money on quality parts, a shaft rocker system should be on your car, especially if you are going to go very healthy with the cam.
My car is currently running without any sort of tune on it, and it's quite rich. I ran a 10.67 at 128.70. The run was so-so until I shifted into 3rd, then it cleared up and pulled real strong on the back half. It picked up over 26mph on the back half. My car weighed around 3100 with me in it. I expect it to be running 10.3's once I get the tune sorted out. That's on pump gas, with the factory pcm (7000rpm cap in place). If I were to jack the compression up to over 13-1, step up on the camshaft and get some aftermarket pcm controller, i'm sure I could be knocking on bottom 10's. Not sure what engine management you run, but big heads deserve big cams, and the factory pcm is a crutch.
If you already plan shaft mounts, solid roller, and aftermarket EFI then IMO the AFRs will give you more potential. A 396 is a big engine, and will want a big head.
Joel's car is a perfect example of how more cubes likes more head. With a racier setup (more compression, more cam, more gear, clean up the heads, run race gas, and gut it) he could go for 9's if he wanted. I'm sure he will have bottom 10's without changing a thing on it as it stands now.
With a smaller 383 that sees street duty though, its hard to beat the performance and reliability of the AI 215 setup. Using a healthy HR and standard stud mount roller rockers you will save a ton of cash, you won't need a new computer for 7K+ rpms, and you will have a more reliable car with less maintenance then then a big spring-eating solid roller setup. Hell, Quick is a tail wind away from 9's NA with them, in a 3300# fbody. If he raced naked he'd be there already
.They both have their places, but on a bigger 396 mostly-strip car the AFRs would be the way to go IMO.
10-01-2011, 11:14 AM
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10-01-2011, 11:19 AM
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Well said.
If you already plan shaft mounts, solid roller, and aftermarket EFI then IMO the AFRs will give you more potential. A 396 is a big engine, and will want a big head.
Joel's car is a perfect example of how more cubes likes more head. With a racier setup (more compression, more cam, more gear, clean up the heads, run race gas, and gut it) he could go for 9's if he wanted. I'm sure he will have bottom 10's without changing a thing on it as it stands now.
With a smaller 383 that sees street duty though, its hard to beat the performance and reliability of the AI 215 setup. Using a healthy HR and standard stud mount roller rockers you will save a ton of cash, you won't need a new computer for 7K+ rpms, and you will have a more reliable car with less maintenance then then a big spring-eating solid roller setup. Hell, Quick is a tail wind away from 9's NA with them, in a 3300# fbody. If he raced naked he'd be there already.
They both have their places, but on a bigger 396 mostly-strip car the AFRs would be the way to go IMO.
If you already plan shaft mounts, solid roller, and aftermarket EFI then IMO the AFRs will give you more potential. A 396 is a big engine, and will want a big head.
Joel's car is a perfect example of how more cubes likes more head. With a racier setup (more compression, more cam, more gear, clean up the heads, run race gas, and gut it) he could go for 9's if he wanted. I'm sure he will have bottom 10's without changing a thing on it as it stands now.
With a smaller 383 that sees street duty though, its hard to beat the performance and reliability of the AI 215 setup. Using a healthy HR and standard stud mount roller rockers you will save a ton of cash, you won't need a new computer for 7K+ rpms, and you will have a more reliable car with less maintenance then then a big spring-eating solid roller setup. Hell, Quick is a tail wind away from 9's NA with them, in a 3300# fbody. If he raced naked he'd be there already
.They both have their places, but on a bigger 396 mostly-strip car the AFRs would be the way to go IMO.
10-01-2011, 12:15 PM
#10
Helped a friend with a new set of AFR heads. His engine has studs for the heads and his old heads were Dart's. The bolt holes in the AFR heads were not drilled from one side and there was a step in the middle of the hole from the drill going in from both sides and not meeting at the same point. The studs of course stopped at the step, so we re-drilled the holes. Both heads were the same, at least they were consistent.
Not complaining, just stating the facts.
Al 95 Z28
Not complaining, just stating the facts.
Al 95 Z28
10-01-2011, 03:24 PM
#11
Here's a pic to help to show you where the valves actually move to in relation to the valve notches in the pistons. The shiny cuts are what I made with my lindytools cuting kit.
Those are $800 pistons too, lol. The stock notches are generous but the exhaust needs to be way lower. This piston is universal meaning that all 8 are identical. They would be fine if 4 of them had the lefthand notch moved down a 1/2" and over a tiny bit and the other 4 had the right notch moved down a 1/2" and over a bit.
Those are $800 pistons too, lol. The stock notches are generous but the exhaust needs to be way lower. This piston is universal meaning that all 8 are identical. They would be fine if 4 of them had the lefthand notch moved down a 1/2" and over a tiny bit and the other 4 had the right notch moved down a 1/2" and over a bit.
10-07-2011, 01:03 PM
#12
Thanks for the advice...I'm planning this set up with an after market engine mgmt system in mind.I will be running a shaft mount setup with a solid roller cam..At this point I really want a good head that will work with my current pistons without issues.NOT trying to start the dreaded Afr vs Ai debate but instead gather more info with my goals and current shortblock in mind of the two.My race weight is also 3100 with me in it.I really want to get the ball rolling with this project so I will contact the mentioned sponsors for suggestions and pricing..
