Arp head an main stud questions..
11-02-2011, 09:12 AM
#1
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Arp head an main stud questions.. Checking over a few things on my new motor I have some general questions..
1. I see that the machine shop torqued the main caps down to 100ftlbs and used motor oil when the instructions clearly said go to 80ftlbs and use the special lube..
. Now I know they checked journal/ bearing clearances ... But damn... Should I back them off and retighten them to 80?
2. I understand that there is a small plug under the last main cap/ pump mount that channels oil to the filter that MUST be there.. I would assume they verified it's there since they installed the crank and caps.. But should I check if u loosen the caps to retorque?
3. Some say to retorque head studs after engine has been heat cycled, does this mean loosen them a hair one at a time then retorque.. Or just verify in sequence they are still at 80ftlbs?
Because of the shops owner/manager who you cannot talk to because he's a raging douchbag DICK I have no confiedence in his work. he makes you feel like he knows what he's doing, but is just going thru the motions and doesn't care ..however, He is the goto in this area for machine and performance..so I had no choice
1. I see that the machine shop torqued the main caps down to 100ftlbs and used motor oil when the instructions clearly said go to 80ftlbs and use the special lube..
. Now I know they checked journal/ bearing clearances ... But damn... Should I back them off and retighten them to 80? 2. I understand that there is a small plug under the last main cap/ pump mount that channels oil to the filter that MUST be there.. I would assume they verified it's there since they installed the crank and caps.. But should I check if u loosen the caps to retorque?
3. Some say to retorque head studs after engine has been heat cycled, does this mean loosen them a hair one at a time then retorque.. Or just verify in sequence they are still at 80ftlbs?
Because of the shops owner/manager who you cannot talk to because he's a raging douchbag DICK I have no confiedence in his work. he makes you feel like he knows what he's doing, but is just going thru the motions and doesn't care ..however, He is the goto in this area for machine and performance..so I had no choice
11-02-2011, 09:29 AM
#2
Checking over a few things on my new motor I have some general questions..
1. I see that the machine shop torqued the main caps down to 100ftlbs and used motor oil when the instructions clearly said go to 80ftlbs and use the special lube.. . Now I know they checked journal/ bearing clearances ... But damn... Should I back them off and retighten them to 80?
2. I understand that there is a small plug under the last main cap/ pump mount that channels oil to the filter that MUST be there.. I would assume they verified it's there since they installed the crank and caps.. But should I check if u loosen the caps to retorque?
3. Some say to retorque head studs after engine has been heat cycled, does this mean loosen them a hair one at a time then retorque.. Or just verify in sequence they are still at 80ftlbs?
Because of the shops owner/manager who you cannot talk to because he's a raging douchbag DICK I have no confiedence in his work. he makes you feel like he knows what he's doing, but is just going thru the motions and doesn't care ..however, He is the goto in this area for machine and performance..so I had no choice
1. I see that the machine shop torqued the main caps down to 100ftlbs and used motor oil when the instructions clearly said go to 80ftlbs and use the special lube..
. Now I know they checked journal/ bearing clearances ... But damn... Should I back them off and retighten them to 80? 2. I understand that there is a small plug under the last main cap/ pump mount that channels oil to the filter that MUST be there.. I would assume they verified it's there since they installed the crank and caps.. But should I check if u loosen the caps to retorque?
3. Some say to retorque head studs after engine has been heat cycled, does this mean loosen them a hair one at a time then retorque.. Or just verify in sequence they are still at 80ftlbs?
Because of the shops owner/manager who you cannot talk to because he's a raging douchbag DICK I have no confiedence in his work. he makes you feel like he knows what he's doing, but is just going thru the motions and doesn't care ..however, He is the goto in this area for machine and performance..so I had no choice
11-02-2011, 10:24 AM
#5
sorry i should've stated that before.......
11-02-2011, 11:03 AM
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The block wasnt alighn honed I just found out and he also said that the caps weren't torqued past 80.. But I put a torque beam bar on a nut to see what it would budge at and at 90 it still wasn't tightening Not even a hair.. So I quit.. And assume it's at 100.. I paid this dude," RPM of fort Walton beach Florida"
$ 750 to balance the rotating assembly and to put the assembly in the block.. Only after some cussing from him and hanging up , i called again then He reluctantly said he shaved the first main cap .001 because it was a little loose .. I asked them several times while they had the motor to keep track of all the specs on the build so i could have it... They didnt.. he acts like your wasting his time when u talk to him.. Am I just too paranoid ? I really want this thing to be right the first time ....
$ 750 to balance the rotating assembly and to put the assembly in the block.. Only after some cussing from him and hanging up , i called again then He reluctantly said he shaved the first main cap .001 because it was a little loose .. I asked them several times while they had the motor to keep track of all the specs on the build so i could have it... They didnt.. he acts like your wasting his time when u talk to him.. Am I just too paranoid ? I really want this thing to be right the first time ....
Last edited by defaultexistence; 11-02-2011 at 11:51 AM.
11-02-2011, 11:21 AM
#7
The block was alighn honed but wasn't alighn honed with the studs I just found out and he also said that the caps weren't torqued past 80.. But I put a torque beam bar on a nut to see what it would budge at and at 90 it still wasn't tightening Not even a hair.. So I quit.. And assume it's at 100.. I paid this dude," RPM of fort Walton beach Florida"
$ 750 to balance the rotating assembly and to put the assembly in the block.. Only after some cussing from him and hanging up , i called again then He reluctantly said he shaved the first main cap .001 because it was a little loose .. I asked them several times while they had the motor to keep track of all the specs on the build so i could have it... They didnt.. he acts like your wasting his time when u talk to him.. Am I just too paranoid ? I really want this thing to be right the first time ....
$ 750 to balance the rotating assembly and to put the assembly in the block.. Only after some cussing from him and hanging up , i called again then He reluctantly said he shaved the first main cap .001 because it was a little loose .. I asked them several times while they had the motor to keep track of all the specs on the build so i could have it... They didnt.. he acts like your wasting his time when u talk to him.. Am I just too paranoid ? I really want this thing to be right the first time ....
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11-02-2011, 11:57 AM
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Edited post, he says it wasn't alighn honed at all and didn't need to be,...? And that the crank went in fine... , clearances check, assembly spins relitively easily.. I mean this thing is in long block status ...
, clearances check, assembly spins relitively easily.. I mean this thing is in long block status ... Last edited by defaultexistence; 11-02-2011 at 12:17 PM.
11-02-2011, 12:29 PM
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I've spent so much on this damn forged L.E.headed 383 and it's getting so close to being done it's literally making me a nervous wreck .. Every time I have ever second guessed something like this , my suspicions Turn out right and bites me in the ***.. And having to trust soMeOne that acts like they couldnt care less is REALLY hard with My Car..
Mike
11-02-2011, 12:42 PM
#11
just a quick fyi the clearances on the main bores vs crank mains can still be good yet the cap parting lines and line bore can still be off.......when changing main bolts/studs a align check is required.......if he is saying other wise i would question it.........its is very feasable that after the stud swap the line was fine but it should have for sure been checked......ive never built one where i havent checked the line bore after a stud install
11-02-2011, 03:53 PM
#12
The main problem is that you didn't pay him for a complete buildup. Sorry, that is why you get no respect from the guy. $750 is a bottom-budget build, no doubt about it.
I know the type, my main machinist for the longest time was like this. It all comes down to how you are when you deal with them. If you go in and talk like a smart *** (not saying you did, and your definition and his definition of your attitude is different ,just saying) then he will do exactly what you ask, even if it is wrong.
What did you bring the guy, a prepped block and rotating assembly? A old, dirty block and had him prep it for you? Did you dictate a budget? Did you try to tell him what you "think" he needs to do?
The answers to all the above are all about the builders attitude towards you. I cannot believe any competent builder would not try to get you to pay for a complete buildup, with complete block work, prep, line bore/hone, deck prep, cylinder bore/hone, cleanup, etc... If you brought him a stock block and stock rotating assembly and wanted it balanced with a minimum of work/cost then you got just that. A cursory check (which is far from a full blueprint job), and assembly.
Who knows what he torqued the mains to, but as was said, trust your builder. If he screwed you, then you have a choice not to use him again in the future. Sucks, but it is the way it goes. Your only recourse is taking it somewhere else and then having the new place redo everything to check it all out and reassemble it. Even if they find a problem, good luck getting the original shop to take responsibility. Doubtful you would win a lawsuit even (as you have to show negligence resulting in damage to win).
Fact of the matter is, is it a full high-hp buildup? (forged rotating assembly, prepped block, ie, lots of $$$ spent), or is it a "stockish" buildup with stock block/rotating assembly? (and that includes changes like forged pistons/new rod bolts) If it is a "stockish" buildup then you are worrying for no reason. If you are going to be making much more than 450hp then you should have let the builder know and he would have suggested much more money into the block than what you have to be reliable. If he did and you ignored it, then you are getting the attitude you paid for.
Sorry, but you can do things cheap and hope things go well, sometimes you get lucky. Most of the times you spend more than you expect, but have the comfort knowing you put the right parts in and have reliability.
Now, if you truely left it up to him, were polite, courteous, explained your goals in a mature manner and listened to his concerns and advice and you had him do what he advised you to, then there is little need for the attitude from him. Even at that, tho, you should trust it is built right.
Some people in business have an attitude that unless you are spending the big dollars you aren't worth thier time. Doesn't matter how good they are, they don't deserve any business with an attitude like that. Locally there is a shop that has had that reputation, that unless you are spending >$10k on a buildup your stuff is suspect. In the last 4-5 years that attitude has changed quite a bit and they are known for doing quality work across the board.
Granted, you would argue you have a lot of money into your setup, but overall, compared to "proper" buildups (ie, overbuilt for reliability) it is far from "enough".
You see it on here all the time, people trying to achieve big HP and doing it on the cheap. Sometimes people make good numbers, but check it out a year or two from now and see if it is still together. You will see a direct correlation between the dollars spent and the reliability. Granted, you always have exceptions, but that is just it, an exception, not to be expected by all, all the time...
I know the type, my main machinist for the longest time was like this. It all comes down to how you are when you deal with them. If you go in and talk like a smart *** (not saying you did, and your definition and his definition of your attitude is different ,just saying) then he will do exactly what you ask, even if it is wrong.
What did you bring the guy, a prepped block and rotating assembly? A old, dirty block and had him prep it for you? Did you dictate a budget? Did you try to tell him what you "think" he needs to do?
The answers to all the above are all about the builders attitude towards you. I cannot believe any competent builder would not try to get you to pay for a complete buildup, with complete block work, prep, line bore/hone, deck prep, cylinder bore/hone, cleanup, etc... If you brought him a stock block and stock rotating assembly and wanted it balanced with a minimum of work/cost then you got just that. A cursory check (which is far from a full blueprint job), and assembly.
Who knows what he torqued the mains to, but as was said, trust your builder. If he screwed you, then you have a choice not to use him again in the future. Sucks, but it is the way it goes. Your only recourse is taking it somewhere else and then having the new place redo everything to check it all out and reassemble it. Even if they find a problem, good luck getting the original shop to take responsibility. Doubtful you would win a lawsuit even (as you have to show negligence resulting in damage to win).
Fact of the matter is, is it a full high-hp buildup? (forged rotating assembly, prepped block, ie, lots of $$$ spent), or is it a "stockish" buildup with stock block/rotating assembly? (and that includes changes like forged pistons/new rod bolts) If it is a "stockish" buildup then you are worrying for no reason. If you are going to be making much more than 450hp then you should have let the builder know and he would have suggested much more money into the block than what you have to be reliable. If he did and you ignored it, then you are getting the attitude you paid for.
Sorry, but you can do things cheap and hope things go well, sometimes you get lucky. Most of the times you spend more than you expect, but have the comfort knowing you put the right parts in and have reliability.
Now, if you truely left it up to him, were polite, courteous, explained your goals in a mature manner and listened to his concerns and advice and you had him do what he advised you to, then there is little need for the attitude from him. Even at that, tho, you should trust it is built right.
Some people in business have an attitude that unless you are spending the big dollars you aren't worth thier time. Doesn't matter how good they are, they don't deserve any business with an attitude like that. Locally there is a shop that has had that reputation, that unless you are spending >$10k on a buildup your stuff is suspect. In the last 4-5 years that attitude has changed quite a bit and they are known for doing quality work across the board.
Granted, you would argue you have a lot of money into your setup, but overall, compared to "proper" buildups (ie, overbuilt for reliability) it is far from "enough".
You see it on here all the time, people trying to achieve big HP and doing it on the cheap. Sometimes people make good numbers, but check it out a year or two from now and see if it is still together. You will see a direct correlation between the dollars spent and the reliability. Granted, you always have exceptions, but that is just it, an exception, not to be expected by all, all the time...
11-02-2011, 03:57 PM
#13
Oh, and you don't have to retorque the heads. Especially with a N/A setup. Torque them right in the right order the first time and you are fine. Hell on some BIG HP setups it is unreasonable to rip the headers and everything else off to retorque the heads.
I would say at least 95%-99% of the time people with head studs torque them properly once and they are done. At least on LT1/SBC buildups.
I would say at least 95%-99% of the time people with head studs torque them properly once and they are done. At least on LT1/SBC buildups.
11-02-2011, 05:49 PM
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The block wasnt alighn honed I just found out and he also said that the caps weren't torqued past 80.. But I put a torque beam bar on a nut to see what it would budge at and at 90 it still wasn't tightening Not even a hair.. So I quit.. And assume it's at 100.. I paid this dude," RPM of fort Walton beach Florida"
$ 750 to balance the rotating assembly and to put the assembly in the block.. Only after some cussing from him and hanging up , i called again then He reluctantly said he shaved the first main cap .001 because it was a little loose .. I asked them several times while they had the motor to keep track of all the specs on the build so i could have it... They didnt.. he acts like your wasting his time when u talk to him.. Am I just too paranoid ? I really want this thing to be right the first time ....
$ 750 to balance the rotating assembly and to put the assembly in the block.. Only after some cussing from him and hanging up , i called again then He reluctantly said he shaved the first main cap .001 because it was a little loose .. I asked them several times while they had the motor to keep track of all the specs on the build so i could have it... They didnt.. he acts like your wasting his time when u talk to him.. Am I just too paranoid ? I really want this thing to be right the first time ....
11-02-2011, 07:02 PM
#15
This is only for labor which I think is what he meant with the $750 price. I could be waywrong though.
11-02-2011, 07:24 PM
#16
Mike,
i agree with tony about having to trust the machinist you used. next time you really have to pick a good well known machinist and machine shop so you don't run into questioning anything he does i been to a few trust me and when i question how they were doing something i didn't like i got the whole i been doing it for 30 years well doesn't mean 30 years done right lol well i only use a machinist now i trust and is a known racer himself but they are hard to find been screwed 4 times by 3 different machine shops but hope all goes well with the build im in Florida too pm me with some tracks you go too
i agree with tony about having to trust the machinist you used. next time you really have to pick a good well known machinist and machine shop so you don't run into questioning anything he does i been to a few trust me and when i question how they were doing something i didn't like i got the whole i been doing it for 30 years well doesn't mean 30 years done right lol well i only use a machinist now i trust and is a known racer himself but they are hard to find been screwed 4 times by 3 different machine shops but hope all goes well with the build im in Florida too pm me with some tracks you go too
11-02-2011, 10:22 PM
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Beast, I brought him a already hot tanked clean, bored .030,stroke clearanced,new cam bearing installed block. I also brought my brand new forged crank,h-beams,SRP pistons,TCI flex plate and ARP main studs. I told him my goal of a 400+ DD ,asked him to balance rotating assembly,check everything over & make note of clearances for me and to let me know if anything else was needed and install it into the block then I would put together the topend.
He took about 2 months to complete as there was always a big$$ customers boat engine that needed work right away and since I wasn't in a hurry I was on the back burner..
He provided the clevite77 H-series bearings and perfect circle rings filed for nitrous use.
I paid $500 to a previous machine shop "F&S" to do the cylinder bore,clearancing,plugs and hot tank.. Since they don't do crank balance or alighn bore/honing in house, I brought it to him "RPM" to finish since they DO...
I noticed when I would come by on my paydays to pay while waiting on him to start/finish my block ,that by 3-4pm they would be drinking beers, so in hopes they would take good care of my needs I even brought beer for them once...I was always polite ,friendly and but not ignorant ..
No.. I wasn't trying to get by "cheap" $1,200 in machine cost alone I've forked over in this town , and wouldn't have backed down on another $200 if needed to alighn hone. But now I feel it's a bit late
He took about 2 months to complete as there was always a big$$ customers boat engine that needed work right away and since I wasn't in a hurry I was on the back burner..
He provided the clevite77 H-series bearings and perfect circle rings filed for nitrous use.
I paid $500 to a previous machine shop "F&S" to do the cylinder bore,clearancing,plugs and hot tank.. Since they don't do crank balance or alighn bore/honing in house, I brought it to him "RPM" to finish since they DO...
I noticed when I would come by on my paydays to pay while waiting on him to start/finish my block ,that by 3-4pm they would be drinking beers, so in hopes they would take good care of my needs I even brought beer for them once...I was always polite ,friendly and but not ignorant ..
No.. I wasn't trying to get by "cheap" $1,200 in machine cost alone I've forked over in this town , and wouldn't have backed down on another $200 if needed to alighn hone. But now I feel it's a bit late
Last edited by defaultexistence; 11-02-2011 at 10:27 PM.
11-02-2011, 11:50 PM
#19
Well, it sounds like they took advantage of you then...
Sorry, to be standing around drinking beers while customers work is waiting to be done is NOT professional. Sounds like they are a bit full of themselves and think your some sort of punk kid and don't take you seriously.
The way you handle those types is to buck up, have a third party check it over and if there are ANY problems you HAVE to threaten a lawsuit. Tell them you want your cash back otherwise you WILL sue. I gurantee you they will pay you to get rid of you. Places like that get PIIIISSSED OFF when people threaten legal. Just keep a cool head and be stern on your resolve. Bring up his attitude towards you, a paying customer, and his nasty tone and language. Be prepared to retain an attorney for a threatening letter, and it will be taken care of.
Frankly you don't want to do business with a place like that to begin with. In this economy for people to be nasty like that is just unreal. That place deserves to be out of business.
Sorry, to be standing around drinking beers while customers work is waiting to be done is NOT professional. Sounds like they are a bit full of themselves and think your some sort of punk kid and don't take you seriously.
The way you handle those types is to buck up, have a third party check it over and if there are ANY problems you HAVE to threaten a lawsuit. Tell them you want your cash back otherwise you WILL sue. I gurantee you they will pay you to get rid of you. Places like that get PIIIISSSED OFF when people threaten legal. Just keep a cool head and be stern on your resolve. Bring up his attitude towards you, a paying customer, and his nasty tone and language. Be prepared to retain an attorney for a threatening letter, and it will be taken care of.
Frankly you don't want to do business with a place like that to begin with. In this economy for people to be nasty like that is just unreal. That place deserves to be out of business.
11-03-2011, 07:41 AM
#20
after reading all of this you get what you pay for.............i personally in house have tools for cam bearings, clearances, polishing cranks, so on a so forth but i do not have tools in house to bore/hone/balance........but i do have A GOOD REPUTABLE machine shop i deal with......when i need something done like that i drop the parts off and we are both on the same page of what needs to be done....i convey to the shop what i want for clearances and what needs to be cut where....i also convey what bore size i need...as well as if the line needs to be honed...also what balance i want to go with (0, over, under bal) .........when the motor comes back even after a hot tank i clean it with galley brushes and soapy warm water......then the block is sprayed with rust inhibitor prior to assembly.......if somebody comes to me and wants to build a 383 and has $750 i turn them down............why? not because im being a jerk but because I PERSONALLY REFUSE TO BUILD SOMETHING FOR SOMEONE THAT IS DONE INCORRECTLY AND WILL NOT LAST......i pride my work on longevity as well as power........i can honestly say that EVERY SINGLE motor i have built is still running well......i will not bore or hone a block without a deck plate.......i will not install studs or bolts with out a line hone........if i have a crank journal that is .0005 off and i dont like it i polish it and use the correct bearings so its right..........there is ZERO room for leeway in longevity of a performance motor i dont care if you are building a 270hp truck motor or a 1000hp race motor the same principles apply (minus of course actual build properties: clearances, parts, etc..)
what i can tell you is do things once and do it right.......personally IMO if you bring your parts to a shop and they allow you to let them hack it together that shop is no good........again ive had times where ive turned customers down because of this......its no sweat off my back id rather have less customers that are satisfied and my reputation (which is local only) than have more customers that are angry with broken cars...........
what i can tell you is do things once and do it right.......personally IMO if you bring your parts to a shop and they allow you to let them hack it together that shop is no good........again ive had times where ive turned customers down because of this......its no sweat off my back id rather have less customers that are satisfied and my reputation (which is local only) than have more customers that are angry with broken cars...........
Last edited by quik95lt1; 11-03-2011 at 07:47 AM.