duh

iTrader: (16)

So I'm building my parts list. Before people tell me that I should be duplicating proven combos....I'm not. Not in the LTx world anyway. I'm more looking for why the price difference. What makes one set worth way more than the next?

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/je...0305/overview/

vs.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pc...-035/overview/

vs.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/je...0303/overview/

Engine will be going in a Z28 that is mostly a DD with drag strip outings almost every other weekend. The engine is going to Rev being a 355 with light (~570 gr.) rods and pistons (~343 gr.). This is about 225 gr. less than stock parts. I'm not planning on any power adder, but I may toss 100-150 shot on it, if I'm not happy with the power output. I'm not planning on that happening. Since I can't pull up the Probe Ring set on Summit, I'm going off what I found. I haven't included the Total Seal sets because they are over $300 a set for just the rings. So the question is, What makes these range in price? And which would be a better set for my intended application (or should I call a builder<--that I'm not totally ready to do since I'm still in planning stages)

1toofastlt1

iTrader: (4)

I just did a ton of research on rings for a 440 ls2. I spoke with late Model racecraft, dimond pistons and total seal. For a set up like yours look into gapless rings... I would call the company that make the pistons and see what they recommend. Also find out who makes there rings for them.

1toofastlt1

iTrader: (4)

if it's going to be a daily driver you might want to go with a standard tension oil ring and also a napeir second ring. You may not have enough oil control. I would call total seal and get a gapless top ring and a napier second with standard tension oil rings. Rings are very important and can cost you a lot of HP if you get the wrong ones

duh

iTrader: (16)

That's why I'm looking into this as well. According to summit the Total Seal Gapless ring sets are $373 for a Steel top ring, cast iron second and a standard tension oil ring, and $318 for a ductile iron top, cast second and standard oil ring. So needless to say this is why I'm asking....Ranges from $45 to $373 for a set of 8 is a pretty big swing. The pistons are Probe forgings and they have rings listed on their site, but Summit doesn't have them, so pricing is a bit tough. I'm really hoping some of the older, wiser guys will chime in and give me a little bit of direction. As of right now this is all planning stages. I've been looking at the Probes because of the features for the price. It's $400 for the pistons and pins and they weigh in extremely light, which is what drew me to them. The downside I'm seeing is the 1.2mm/1.5mm/3mm Ring setup they have.

noice

I wouldn't go mixing your own ring packages to pistons if this is the first engine you have built.

Why not check out JE Pistons or some other online manufacturer website? They have lighter pistons and tell you what ring package to run.

http://www.jepistons.com/Catalogs/Automotive/Chevy_SB/

Here are the SBC piston companies that I know of, look them up online, check jegs, check summit, if it comes down to it, you can order through jegs or summit. I have had to order Mahle pistons before and you can't buy direct.

Arias
AutoTec/RaceTec
CP/Carillo
Clevite/Federal-Mogul
Badger
BME
Diamond
DSS Racing
GM
Howards Cams
JE/SRP
Kieth Black
Lunati
Mahle
Manley
Probe
Ross
Sealed Power
Speed Pro
Summit Racing
Trick Flow
TRW
Venolia
Wiesco

gjohnsonws6

iTrader: (12)

Give total seal a call. They have great tech support. I run the classic race plasmas with steel tops

97 6speed z

Years ago when Total Seal first began selling their "Gapless" ring sets, several car magazines ran "back to back" comparison tests with this "new" ring design from Total Seal.

If memory serves, on a modified SBC 350/383 motor making right around 475-500 FWHP ..... the "gapless" ring design was worth right around (a proven?) 8-10 FWHP increase over standard rings. Because of this documented gain ......... Total Seal priced these rings accordingly!!!

It all seems to "boil down" to this ......... if you are deep into an engine re-build where you are replacing rings ......... are you willing to spend and extra $250, or so, for a documented 8-10 FWHP gain???? If you are "class racing", or building an engine to STRICT rule standards then, of course, the extra $250 for that 8-10 FWHP is WELL worth it. For a DD application with some dragsrtip duty ....... YOU need to decide how much you're willing to pay per HP increase, and ....... how much work is involved in getting that extra HP increase while the engine is being built.

bowtienut

iTrader: (1)

While theoretically the gapless concept is "best", I'm still not convinced of it's real world merit. No data to support that, just my observations of a few reputable builders who aren't very high on them. If I were looking for every advantage without regard to cost, I could be talked into using them.
I'm more inclined to believe the findings of somebody like John Lingenfelter (said any gains were lost in the noise) than a magazine "testing" one of its advertisers' products. Perhaps they've gotten better since the initial designs?
Hopefully somebody responds with some data or source to get me more excited about them

duh

iTrader: (16)

That's kinda what I was figuring. To ME the super expensive rings aren't worth the $$$. I need something that will get the job done on what is more than likely going to be an NA build. For that reason I'm also considering hyperutectic pistons since they don't new to stand up to the abuse of spray or boost. That's why I'm pricing and building on paper before I spend a huge chunk of change only to change my mind. I appreciate everyone's opinions.

97 6speed z

Regarding what I highlighted in Bowtienut's post above ....... I do remember that Total Seal required a different surface finish RMS requirement on final cylinder hone when using these "gapless" rings.

Sometimes(???) the old/older (i.e. read dinosaur???) engine builders who have been machining blocks for standard rings sets for ...... ever, also tend NOT to support NEW technology ....... when it affects what THEY have to do in their processes to incorporate it.

Just more fodder for speculation???

bowtienut

iTrader: (1)

I'd be the first to point the finger at "behind the times" builders.
No, I was thinking of a couple of top-notch modern operations building race-winning stuff. I assure you they can give you any surface finish you'd like They'll use them on mild stuff depending on customer preference, with no issues at all, but seem to shun them as the power requirement goes up.
I wonder what the Sprint Cup think tanks over in the Carolinas use. Anybody know?

GIZMO

iTrader: (8)

Both ring sets that you listed will be of very good quality (The first listing is for one piston!). I don't know that I would run a gapless on a daily driver.

duh

iTrader: (16)

Thanks GIZMO. I didn't even realize that the first was for ine piston. Maybe I should pay a little more attention. I'd be really interested in picking your brain as to the benefits of a 1.2mm top ring. The pistons I found while looking around had them, hence the ring packages I posted. I've just been trying to figure out if it really is the best option. I haven't really seen anything saying otherwise, infact everything I've read says basically to go with the thinnest rings possible.

96capricemgr

iTrader: (1)

I think you need to talk to your machinist.
As said surface finish requirements vary with different ring types so he has to be comfortable setting the bores up for what you run.

GIZMO

iTrader: (8)

The answer is reduced friction. A problem that you might have is less resistance to detonation. I am no expert on this, but you might want to talk to some piston and ring manufacturers if you are planning to use nitrous.

duh

iTrader: (16)

Nitrous is more an after thought. I'm not planning on running it at this point in time which is why I'm considering hyper pistons. The probes that I priced are forgings, but with an NA build why not go with hyper and save money and weight there as well? I guess it's all a durability question in the end.

F0x Slaughter

Depends if you would rather save money now get hypers and then change them or have it go boom.

So spend money and build it right one time, or have to tear it apart and buy other parts again.

I would go with the first one.

quik95lt1

iTrader: (7)

fwiw pat i went from a std ring package from JE to a Total Seal gapless top set in mine......i notice a BIG difference in blow by and sealing capability, as for hp i do not have an accurate number because the CR went up at the same time......but ive seen dyno tests at my local machine shop and ive seen up to 15hp from a std run of the mill ring set to the gapless TS top.......you get what you pay for....i run a low tension oil ring and a gapless top i have 0 oil consumption and the motor holds compression to the point where its almost impossible to spin it over with a breaker bar while changing plugs.....you need to wait about 45 sec to bleed a small amount of compression off to be able to turn it with out turning blue in the face.....if you pull on the bar it will stop and bounce right back my leakdown is ~1% which is unheard of keep in mind its a $400 ring package but you get what you pay for

also oP there is good info above from things you need to consider ie finish bore, ring weight and thickness

96capricemgr

iTrader: (1)

On piston material I understand and agree that hyper would be sufficient for many builds BUT what is the selection like in quality hypereutetic pistons? Is anybody really making anything nice with that material to even consider?
A quick Summit search looked like a Speed Pro offering was looking best but still had a 1/16" ring package which is slightly thicker than stock but when I tried to find a weight for it I found this.
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic...=21385#p234277
Which kind of backs up what I suspected about nobody actually making a good piston in that material other than OEM stuff.
I suspect GM may offers a "stock LT1" piston in a .030 overbore for rebuilds but I would also suspect it cost more than going forged.

If buying pistons for a street car I would do 4032 forged lots of nice options in that material, sure the strength is overkill but like I said I think it is what you need to look at to find quality offerings.
2618 is stronger yet but really not as well suited to a daily driver sort of car.

bowtienut

iTrader: (1)

I'd fully expect to see a big difference in a static demo / leakdown number like you described, Mike.
The ring-type discussion aside, I think your observations on your own meticulously measured/machined/blueprinted motor really emphasize how important the other factors are (bore finish, ring geometry, etc). Until you perfectly seal the 359.9 degrees of ring-bore interface, what you do in that last 0.1 degree is futile. Those numbers are pretty close to actual, BTW