Snowball effect. Round 3.
01-02-2014, 10:50 PM
#1
Snowball effect. Round 3. There's a reason it's taken me 3 years to replace the valve springs on my car. I knew something would happen. It always does.
Rewind 3, nay almost 4 years now, I had just gotten done with my car. 355ci LT1, Lunati 231/239 .570/.585 LSA110, ported heads w/big valves, 58mm TB, 30lb red tops, full exhaust through a GMMG. 2 days after it was together, drove it to and from ATL for the gathering. It was BOSS. Ran great, just fell on it's face after 6200rpm. Seeing as I never drive the car and at that point didn't have the funding to really fix anything, I didn't push it. I did have Alvin throw it on the rollers though. Made 408hp and 383tq, obviously before dieing at 6200.
Present day...car has only been driven roughly 4k miles at this point. Mostly around town on a nice weekend day, hit some car shows, etc. Finally decided I needed to figure out the issue. After some discussion with quite a few people, it was determined valve spring float was the issue of the high end nose dive. Bought a set of springs, and dove in...to a pool with zero water...
After talking with the machinist who did the heads originally, I chalk it up to tough luck. There must have been miscommunication between us and the old 918s were just installed supposedly at the right height but it was a known fact (on his end) that they weren't up to the task of the new cam. I assume, my thought process was that I was told they'd be good to go; needless to say I've learned a lot in the last few years.
Game plan after that was to yank the motor, get the heads fixed, new springs installed, and install the reluctors for the 24x conversion but continue to run the Opti until I can get together the money for the rest of the setup. I'm getting married in May, paying for it myself, and buying a house, so needless to say I don't have the money to just throw it all in right now. At the same time, I've had a clutch sitting around for probably almost a year now, and I have been wanting to knock out some little issues the car has.
PSYC!
This was sent to MSD when I did the last build, and it was replaced. They sent me a brand new one to my knowledge. I'm gonna give them a ring in the morning and hopefully they'll do something for me. Like I said, it's got 4k miles...4,000...no reason it should be like this.
Game plan as of now. **** it. Fix the heads, 24x, rewire, shoot for some good numbers, I don't want the process to be drawn out anymore. I'm already a month deep and I've got four until the big day, and I'm not trying to cut it close. I guess the only thing holding my head up now is knowing what kind of power it made with the issues it has.
Rewind 3, nay almost 4 years now, I had just gotten done with my car. 355ci LT1, Lunati 231/239 .570/.585 LSA110, ported heads w/big valves, 58mm TB, 30lb red tops, full exhaust through a GMMG. 2 days after it was together, drove it to and from ATL for the gathering. It was BOSS. Ran great, just fell on it's face after 6200rpm. Seeing as I never drive the car and at that point didn't have the funding to really fix anything, I didn't push it. I did have Alvin throw it on the rollers though. Made 408hp and 383tq, obviously before dieing at 6200.
Present day...car has only been driven roughly 4k miles at this point. Mostly around town on a nice weekend day, hit some car shows, etc. Finally decided I needed to figure out the issue. After some discussion with quite a few people, it was determined valve spring float was the issue of the high end nose dive. Bought a set of springs, and dove in...to a pool with zero water...
After talking with the machinist who did the heads originally, I chalk it up to tough luck. There must have been miscommunication between us and the old 918s were just installed supposedly at the right height but it was a known fact (on his end) that they weren't up to the task of the new cam. I assume, my thought process was that I was told they'd be good to go; needless to say I've learned a lot in the last few years.
Game plan after that was to yank the motor, get the heads fixed, new springs installed, and install the reluctors for the 24x conversion but continue to run the Opti until I can get together the money for the rest of the setup. I'm getting married in May, paying for it myself, and buying a house, so needless to say I don't have the money to just throw it all in right now. At the same time, I've had a clutch sitting around for probably almost a year now, and I have been wanting to knock out some little issues the car has.
PSYC!
This was sent to MSD when I did the last build, and it was replaced. They sent me a brand new one to my knowledge. I'm gonna give them a ring in the morning and hopefully they'll do something for me. Like I said, it's got 4k miles...4,000...no reason it should be like this.
Game plan as of now. **** it. Fix the heads, 24x, rewire, shoot for some good numbers, I don't want the process to be drawn out anymore. I'm already a month deep and I've got four until the big day, and I'm not trying to cut it close. I guess the only thing holding my head up now is knowing what kind of power it made with the issues it has.
01-03-2014, 04:24 AM
#2
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My sympathies tbird. These GEN II cars have issues that take a big learning curve. But like the fuel pump trap door until u find the fix i can make u miserable. Dont ask me how many fuel pumps ive put in it. And nearly the whole dang drive line needs hi-po parts. Im waiting until my rear end crumbles before spending $3k to $5k on that.
No reason that MSD rotor should machine itself to fit. If u get another chance i would try a fit up with a ball of clay (tiny ball) on the rotor for a clearance check before u put the water pump on.
I would save on that 24x mod until u have the finances for it. Dollar per horse power its really a loser but it does get rid of the opti. $3000 will buy a lot of optis.
U have found out there aint a lot of good vlv train science on these forums. No one seems to get the correct spring for their cam let alone clearance check the new rockers. Rockers have to clear the spring, spring cup, spring retainer, and the rocker stud its on. Who checks that here???
Remember your mechanic has to keep moving cars through the door to keep the rent, heat and light bills paid. He only has his current knowledge for parts selection and no time for research. Its really up to u to do the parts search.
I guess what im suggesting is slowing down the performance process and focus on drive-ability. An AC Delco opti can last 10 years even though it makes 10hp less than the 24x conversion.
A $300 junk yard rear end and $300 to install will get me another 5 years to get at 12 bolt ready.
U have a pretty awesome car as is and once u get the new springs in double check all those vlv train clearances and the opti rotor too before the eng goes back in.
Good luck tbird,
cardo
No reason that MSD rotor should machine itself to fit. If u get another chance i would try a fit up with a ball of clay (tiny ball) on the rotor for a clearance check before u put the water pump on.
I would save on that 24x mod until u have the finances for it. Dollar per horse power its really a loser but it does get rid of the opti. $3000 will buy a lot of optis.
U have found out there aint a lot of good vlv train science on these forums. No one seems to get the correct spring for their cam let alone clearance check the new rockers. Rockers have to clear the spring, spring cup, spring retainer, and the rocker stud its on. Who checks that here???
Remember your mechanic has to keep moving cars through the door to keep the rent, heat and light bills paid. He only has his current knowledge for parts selection and no time for research. Its really up to u to do the parts search.
I guess what im suggesting is slowing down the performance process and focus on drive-ability. An AC Delco opti can last 10 years even though it makes 10hp less than the 24x conversion.
A $300 junk yard rear end and $300 to install will get me another 5 years to get at 12 bolt ready.
U have a pretty awesome car as is and once u get the new springs in double check all those vlv train clearances and the opti rotor too before the eng goes back in.
Good luck tbird,
cardo
01-03-2014, 06:35 AM
#3
I would check the camshaft dowel pin length. Looks like it is forcing the shaft in the Opti forward into the cap.
You didn't use the valve springs the cam company reccomends for their cam? Set at the hight they specify? Unless you know what you are doing mixing parts can get you in trouble.
You didn't use the valve springs the cam company reccomends for their cam? Set at the hight they specify? Unless you know what you are doing mixing parts can get you in trouble.
01-03-2014, 07:51 AM
#4
Village Troll 
iTrader: (2)
That guide is hosed. As Ed said, you need to be extremely careful with your valvetrain. Check your sweep, make sure to use the correct springs suggested by a the cam company, or even a good machine shop can tell you if they can see the cam card. The dowel length is another good point. As per shoebox's reference the pin should protrude .620 to GM's reference of .650" out of the snout.
http://shbox.com/ci/cam_install.html
PSYC!
01-03-2014, 08:03 PM
#5
My sympathies tbird. These GEN II cars have issues that take a big learning curve. But like the fuel pump trap door until u find the fix i can make u miserable. Dont ask me how many fuel pumps ive put in it. And nearly the whole dang drive line needs hi-po parts. Im waiting until my rear end crumbles before spending $3k to $5k on that.
No reason that MSD rotor should machine itself to fit. If u get another chance i would try a fit up with a ball of clay (tiny ball) on the rotor for a clearance check before u put the water pump on.
I would save on that 24x mod until u have the finances for it. Dollar per horse power its really a loser but it does get rid of the opti. $3000 will buy a lot of optis.
U have found out there aint a lot of good vlv train science on these forums. No one seems to get the correct spring for their cam let alone clearance check the new rockers. Rockers have to clear the spring, spring cup, spring retainer, and the rocker stud its on. Who checks that here???
Remember your mechanic has to keep moving cars through the door to keep the rent, heat and light bills paid. He only has his current knowledge for parts selection and no time for research. Its really up to u to do the parts search.
I guess what im suggesting is slowing down the performance process and focus on drive-ability. An AC Delco opti can last 10 years even though it makes 10hp less than the 24x conversion.
A $300 junk yard rear end and $300 to install will get me another 5 years to get at 12 bolt ready.
U have a pretty awesome car as is and once u get the new springs in double check all those vlv train clearances and the opti rotor too before the eng goes back in.
Good luck tbird,
cardo
No reason that MSD rotor should machine itself to fit. If u get another chance i would try a fit up with a ball of clay (tiny ball) on the rotor for a clearance check before u put the water pump on.
I would save on that 24x mod until u have the finances for it. Dollar per horse power its really a loser but it does get rid of the opti. $3000 will buy a lot of optis.
U have found out there aint a lot of good vlv train science on these forums. No one seems to get the correct spring for their cam let alone clearance check the new rockers. Rockers have to clear the spring, spring cup, spring retainer, and the rocker stud its on. Who checks that here???
Remember your mechanic has to keep moving cars through the door to keep the rent, heat and light bills paid. He only has his current knowledge for parts selection and no time for research. Its really up to u to do the parts search.
I guess what im suggesting is slowing down the performance process and focus on drive-ability. An AC Delco opti can last 10 years even though it makes 10hp less than the 24x conversion.
A $300 junk yard rear end and $300 to install will get me another 5 years to get at 12 bolt ready.
U have a pretty awesome car as is and once u get the new springs in double check all those vlv train clearances and the opti rotor too before the eng goes back in.
Good luck tbird,
cardo
I'm definitely doing the 24X, my tuner has been trying to talk me into it, and now that he's my boss I've got even more of a reason to. I turn all the wrenches myself. Just after hours, can't be holding up paying customers.
It's a known fact the opti spark isn't the best engineering design, many flaws. Focusing on drivability I would've changed to the 24X conversion years ago. The opti is just outdated and with the conversion being so accessible it's a no brainer. I've driven the car 4k miles in almost 4 years. Haha.
In the end, I'm tired of patching problems. I've been in the game long enough to know that just doing it right the first time might hurt the wallet, but it's the best way in the end. Much less time and effort.
01-03-2014, 08:53 PM
#6
11 Second Club
Is your car an M6?
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01-04-2014, 06:36 AM
#8
Most Opti issues are self induced at install. Looks like yours possibly are also.
I would measure the dowel pin length, and verify the camshaft retainer plate is in place, and measure camshaft end play. MSD may replace it for you just to make you happy, they aren't likely at fault. It probably is, however, now damaged besides the cap & rotor.
The "24X conversion" drivability won't be one bit better if your tuner has a clue.
If you don't need to spin it over 7000, there is no valid reason to change it.
Kinda like putting a wing on a ricer, may make you feel cooler. LOL
I would measure the dowel pin length, and verify the camshaft retainer plate is in place, and measure camshaft end play. MSD may replace it for you just to make you happy, they aren't likely at fault. It probably is, however, now damaged besides the cap & rotor.
The "24X conversion" drivability won't be one bit better if your tuner has a clue.
If you don't need to spin it over 7000, there is no valid reason to change it.
Kinda like putting a wing on a ricer, may make you feel cooler. LOL
05-15-2014, 11:10 AM
#10
Update:
I'm getting married 2 weeks from this Friday. Initially it was my dream to get the car back together and running so I could use it at the wedding, but alas my dreams have been crushed. ha ha.
The heads were sent of to Phil at AI and he had good, bad, and worse news. The good, was that magically that was the ONLY guide ruined. The bad was that valve was actually coming all the way up and when it seated it bound and wore away at the guide. Finally the worse, was that the valve job was garbage and Phil recommended I have him rework them. Phil is the man, and constantly puts out fantastic work for the shop I work at so I trusted his opinion and let him work his magic. I'm looking forward to the results.
As far as the ignition goes, Alvin and I have our guesses about what caused the opti to get so mangled. Either way, I took the plunge and got the EFI 24x conversion. Unluckily for me, it was on back order for a month. I ordered it mid April and it showed up last week.
At this point the car is on the back burner and I'll slowly get to it when time progresses. My fiance loves the car, so it's not her griping at me about it. Priorities change, I just bought a house and am getting married so it will be a bit longer. I hope to have it back together before the end of summer.
Hopefully with quite a few other goodies installed as well.
I'm getting married 2 weeks from this Friday. Initially it was my dream to get the car back together and running so I could use it at the wedding, but alas my dreams have been crushed. ha ha.
The heads were sent of to Phil at AI and he had good, bad, and worse news. The good, was that magically that was the ONLY guide ruined. The bad was that valve was actually coming all the way up and when it seated it bound and wore away at the guide. Finally the worse, was that the valve job was garbage and Phil recommended I have him rework them. Phil is the man, and constantly puts out fantastic work for the shop I work at so I trusted his opinion and let him work his magic. I'm looking forward to the results.
As far as the ignition goes, Alvin and I have our guesses about what caused the opti to get so mangled. Either way, I took the plunge and got the EFI 24x conversion. Unluckily for me, it was on back order for a month. I ordered it mid April and it showed up last week.
At this point the car is on the back burner and I'll slowly get to it when time progresses. My fiance loves the car, so it's not her griping at me about it. Priorities change, I just bought a house and am getting married so it will be a bit longer. I hope to have it back together before the end of summer.
Hopefully with quite a few other goodies installed as well.
05-15-2014, 11:47 AM
#11
OP
while you did have head issues for valve guide and springs....take What Ed says about cam dowel pin length and cam retaining plate into your plan
the Opti rotor most likely was pushed in because dowel pin is to long....if you don't address that YOU WILL HAVE A REPEAT cap/rotor failure
also your high end stumble/falling on its face was in part from Opti, if not totally unless the 918's did not meet cam specs
while you did have head issues for valve guide and springs....take What Ed says about cam dowel pin length and cam retaining plate into your plan
the Opti rotor most likely was pushed in because dowel pin is to long....if you don't address that YOU WILL HAVE A REPEAT cap/rotor failure
also your high end stumble/falling on its face was in part from Opti, if not totally unless the 918's did not meet cam specs
05-15-2014, 12:54 PM
#12
OP
while you did have head issues for valve guide and springs....take What Ed says about cam dowel pin length and cam retaining plate into your plan
the Opti rotor most likely was pushed in because dowel pin is to long....if you don't address that YOU WILL HAVE A REPEAT cap/rotor failure
also your high end stumble/falling on its face was in part from Opti, if not totally unless the 918's did not meet cam specs
while you did have head issues for valve guide and springs....take What Ed says about cam dowel pin length and cam retaining plate into your plan
the Opti rotor most likely was pushed in because dowel pin is to long....if you don't address that YOU WILL HAVE A REPEAT cap/rotor failure
also your high end stumble/falling on its face was in part from Opti, if not totally unless the 918's did not meet cam specs
05-15-2014, 12:54 PM
#13
OP
while you did have head issues for valve guide and springs....take What Ed says about cam dowel pin length and cam retaining plate into your plan
the Opti rotor most likely was pushed in because dowel pin is to long....if you don't address that YOU WILL HAVE A REPEAT cap/rotor failure
also your high end stumble/falling on its face was in part from Opti, if not totally unless the 918's did not meet cam specs
while you did have head issues for valve guide and springs....take What Ed says about cam dowel pin length and cam retaining plate into your plan
the Opti rotor most likely was pushed in because dowel pin is to long....if you don't address that YOU WILL HAVE A REPEAT cap/rotor failure
also your high end stumble/falling on its face was in part from Opti, if not totally unless the 918's did not meet cam specs
The high end miss I believe was a combination of the opti failure AND the fact that the 918 springs weren't installed correctly/were old. I have a set of Bryan Tooley springs installed now.
I don't forsee having any more cap/rotor failure since I'm converting to the EFI setup, as I stated in the post above you.