BradyD

Hello all, new member here and new owner of 1/2 of a '94 Z28. We picked the car up for $700 with the idea of entering either the 2016 or 2017 grassroots motorsports challenge (you can read about it here: https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/ev...015-challenge/)

Essentially, the premise is to build and race a car for less than $2000. You can sell parts off and recoup up to $1000 during the build. The event consists of an autocross, a drag race, and a concours.

The car is a '94 Z28 auto (4L60E) with 3.55 gears and a stock engine. The PO started to take the motor out because of what he says is a blown head gasket - who knows if that's true as we plan on yanking the motor and giving it a thorough health checkup. Pics here:

http://imgur.com/Rmh3ixj
http://imgur.com/a/Dn5dm

So far what we know we're gonna do:
-Take motor out and give it a thorough check up (check bores, replace gaskets, check main and rod bearings).
-Shed as much weight as we can with a few consolations - want to keep dash and passenger seat - other than that, it's gonna go. Plan to have a bare metal interior.
-Put a higher stall torque converter out of a 4L60E S10 or Blazer.

The big question: what's the most economical way to get to the 12s? Our original plan was to cam the motor, but that also means we *should* use:
1) new lifters
2) new pushrods
3) new springs
4) new timing chain

This will get expensive, and to do it the right way I know all of the above should be new. But if we decide to go cam we're leaning toward reusing the lifters and stock pushrods (again, I know it's not the right way but the even does have the $2000 budget, $700 of which is already gone). Already planning on a whole new gasket set due to the engine tune up.

I'm looking for any input you guys may have. The PO also included a really nice set of Pace Setter long tube headers. What kind of power will a stock cam LT1 with long tubes and a free-flowing redneck engineered exhaust make (i.e., 2.5" pipe with a cherry bomb and exiting in front of rear wheels). Can a stock LT1 motor do 12s? If so, a lot of the money spent putting a cam in can be used for brakes and suspension.

Any input, tips, or tricks are greatly appreciated. The strict budget for this event makes creative 'redneck' ingenuity a must.

Thanks!

StealthFormula

iTrader: (35)

Welcome, sounds like a fun project. I have a few initial thoughts for you to consider:

A cam isn't necessary to hit 12's. In my opinion, the number one thing you can do to increase the performance of your automatic car would be a converter. The S10 converter won't hardly help. Since you're on a budget, I'd look for a quality used converter in the 3200-3600 range. Assuming proper traction, that alone could literally chop a half second off your 1/4 mile ET. Make sure to runs a trans cooler.

I would highly suggest you consider doing an LS1 front brake swap. I did and it made a dramatic difference in stopping power and also dropped 10lbs of weight. Swap can be done for a couple hundred bucks.

Regarding adding hp...do some searching into free mods. Check out the throttle body bypass. You can go to a hardware store, spend $2, gain 5hp. Not much but it all adds up right. Since you'll have the motor apart I'd also consider a slightly thinner head gasket to bump compression a tad. You could use a .026" Victor Reinz or GM "Impala" .028". I'd also search around and see about doing the LS1 air lid swap. If it will fit under your hood then it's prob going to be the best intake setup available and can also be done for under $200.

Way back when I ran a 13.4 in the 1/4 with my '95 which was full weight, stock tune, street tires with only a cai and long tubes. Throw a converter, tune, tires on top of that and you've got 12's. If anything else pops in my head I'll post up, but hopefully those ideas help.

Puck

iTrader: (17)

LT1 is actually a great platform for something like this.

I'm assuming nitrous is illegal? My recipe would be something like this(Note: these are just quick examples, obviously not the best brands due to the budget):

- Basic Gasket set (Jegs has a nice Felpro set for around $55):
$55
- Taylor Wires($42 online) and plugs(8 TR55s are like $20 at autozone):
$62
- Summit/Proform SA 1.6rr's(~$150 from ebay) and generic Alexsprings valvesprings to replace the tired stock ones ($122).
$272
- A stall (a used but "real" stall aorund 3k, not a ~2200 factory one from another vehicle)
$~300
- Homemade exhaust. Cheap used longtubes and either a Y-pipe and a bullet or just two bullets right off the headers (There are some rusty pacesetters in the forums for $150. They look like **** but dirt cheap!)
~$250-$300
- Homemade CAI/shortram intake or a used forum cheapy(Fernco to the TB, PVC, and a Cone filter)
~$50. Shoot me a PM if you'd rather just by a CAI, I'd send you my 1LE elbow and K&N FIPK w/ Spectre filter for like $75 to help ya out just to see how ya do .
- Weld in relocation brackets(~$50) and box the stock LCAs and PHB. Poly bushings everywhere since they are cheap and the stockers will be worn to hell Summit sells a kit to Poly pretty much the WHOLE DAMN CAR for $160. Seems expensive at first but will be night and day - I promise the stock bushings are **** right now. Pull the front sway bar for the drag strip and put it back on for the autocross.
~$210+however cheap you can get plate steel to box the stock suspension
- Tune it almost for free - just get a OBDI cable and free 30 day trial of Tunercats, then download a stock/mild bolton tune from a tune sharing site. Will be close enough, then you can tweak if needed and change things like shift points yourself.
~$60

That is around ~$1,300, putting you at $2k with car before selling off stock parts. Pretty much everything but tires...You will have to rely on selling parts to recoup enough to get some DRs, pick a size that can be used for both strip and autocross. Stock wheels are fine.

I'd imagine not too many NA cars under $2k will be able to beat that combo at the drag strip, if you gut it like you say it should run 12s in good air and you should still make a decent showing at the autocross event.

I'd love to do something like this.

BradyD

Thanks to both of you for the very useful tips! You guys definitely gave me a few things to think about that I hadn't before.

Pace - the car actually came with a set of Pace Setter LTs, so we got that covered already...here's the pic: http://imgur.com/TPXp3mI, looks like we'll have to weld in some O2 bungs...or put them in our fabled up exhaust.

Also, the rules allow for you to buy ONE set a brand new tires that don't count against your $2000 budget. As for brakes, it says this:

"These safety items are budget-exempt: seat belt or harness; fire extinguisher; roll bar padding; wheel lugs, studs and bolts; and your first four tires. Brake friction materials, lines, calipers, master cylinders, rotors and drums may be replaced with fresh ones that are functional duplicates. The purpose of this rule is to allow for fresh brake components, not to allow for budget shenanigans. For example, original brake parts cannot be sold and then rebought to take advantage of this allowance. Brake fluid is also budget-exempt."

Since LS1 brakes are functional duplicates, I think we can also swing that upgrade without it counting against us too!

Onto the bad, though. I think the LT1 in our Camaro may be locked up. My buddy pulled the plugs this evening and two adjacent cylinder's plugs were completely rusty and the motor is locked up...not a good sign. We may be looking for a used running motor or a short block soon.
I know we're not doing this all 'the right way', but it's kind of fun to figure out ways to do things on the cheap. Thanks again for the tips guys, and keep them coming!

bowtienut

iTrader: (1)

12's are a piece of cake with an untouched healthy stock LT1. My heavier B-body went 12.3's with just valvesprings and 1.6 rockers. In the lighter F-body, you can touch 11's, as Tony Q on here has already done.
Bone stock motor, drag radials, and any decent 9.5" torque converter will get you 12's.

bufmatmuslepants

iTrader: (3)

A guy at my local track was running very low 12s in a gutted lt1 and I asked him what he had and he said a stall from a caprice cop car. Apparently they are higher than stock, I don't know how high but he was in low 12s with a GUTTED lt1, cop car stall, long tubes, some sort of short homemade exhaust, and his own tuning. My car was 3010 lbs with every seat except the drivers removed, no carpet, door panels, interior panels, dash, hvac, or center console, but had a heavy 9" and rod ended suspension. He was down near 2800lbs with a fiberglass pin on hood, a cheap racing seat, drag wheels and tires, and I don't know what else.

If you are going cheap, GTO spare tires are used for budget front drag wheels. He did say he dropped 0.3 by going to the drag wheel and tire setup. One other thing you NEED, is to be shifting at 6300rpm on a stock cam. You will need to have it tuned for this with an auto, but 6300 is the sweet spot on a stock motor. A set of $100 Alex's Parts or Howard's springs, or even $34 LT4 springs will help it up there, 1.6 full roller, or 1.7 full roller also helps. If your goal is just 12s on a tiny budget, I'd do the following:

Lt4 $34 valve springs from JEGs
Long tubes to an X pipe or to an ORY with a dump, anything beyond that is added weight
Ls1 lid swap
Cop car stall, or s10 stall, do done research on these but one of them or both is higher than stock
26" drag radials on salad shooters
GTO spares as fronts, or whatever cheap light drag skinnys you can get on Craigslist
GUT THE CAR. No interior, zip tie the guages to the firewall
Delete the bumper supports
Delete HVAC, get an AC delete pulley
Cheap plastic bucket drag seat, especially if you have a power driver seat, the power track is heavy
Delete air pump
You said 3.55 gears, but if its stock I would do a 3.42 rear from an m6 car
Spin it to 6300rpm
Search Craigslist for a set of self aligning FULL ROLLER 1.6 rockers
Throttle body bypass
160 stat
Wire your fans on a fan switch to run them with the car off in the staging lanes
Remove the plastic cover and cut out the fake hood scoops with a drill to allow heat to escape when in staging lanes without having to pop the hood
Motorcycle battery
Driveshaft loop (I have one ill sell you for $20 shipped)

Optional:
Real 3600rpm stall
Put down the spoon and drop 20lbs
Electric water pump wired to run anytime the key is on, helps cool in staging lanes with the fan on a switch
Solid rear tubular LCAs
Ls1 front brakes are lighter than stock since they are aluminum

The top stuff will get you VERY low 12s, bottom stuff can be 11s. You should shoot for under 3000lb race weight, but even at 3250, guys have gone 11s without touching the valvetrain.

bowtienut

iTrader: (1)

"cop car stall" .....LOL
That's as funny as a "cop chip"!

Nope, no such thing. If anything, the B-body TC would be worse than stock F-body. Not sure what stall the F-A4 cars came with, but the B-Body is about 1400 rpm.
An S-10 or "Vette" TC might get you there, but might as well pick up a used 9.5" unit and knock off 2 or 3 more tenths.

Brady, look here:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/lt1-lt4-m...orld-list.html
Search username CamaroRacing12. I don't know about the other guys, but Tony has multiple posts detailing what he did to the car.

bufmatmuslepants

iTrader: (3)

I'm just going by what he told me and his times. He was cracking off 12.1-12.3s all day, on a stock long block. The car was pulled out of the woods for $500 and he was budget racing it. He had a 150 dry shot on it and was doing low 11s with the nitrous.

bowtienut

iTrader: (1)

Maybe he got the TC from an old cop car that someone had already modified to race.

fbody_brian

I would say that you won't have to go with a very radical stall, get what weight you can out of the car and bump the power up with bolt ons. If you go too high on the stall you're going to hurt your autocross performance.

I think you can get into the 12s without a big stall.

bowtienut

iTrader: (1)

Absolutely. The very mildest 2800 9.5" TC will get you there.

BUT, you won't hurt autocross performance one bit with something like a Yank SS3600, which is pretty much the optimum performance converter for a stock head / stock cam LT1. You can trust me on this

BradyD

Well, we go the motor and trans pulled. With a little redneck ingenuity we dropped the K member and got the motor and trans out the side on top of some harbor freight wood dollies. Unfortunately, the motor seems to be junk







Rusty pushrods and lifters...I can only think that means water was pumped up through the pushrods at some point and then the engine say for a long time. This leads me to believe the bottom end is probably garbage. The chocolate milk shake in the oil galley doesn't help the cause either. Looks like it's time to hunt down a new engine.

fex77k

iTrader: (2)

Tony made some people cry with his ride

bufmatmuslepants

iTrader: (3)

Tony put a spanking on me, he ran 12.1 vs my 12.39 when we lined up, he was already ahead of me when I missed 4th, but his 3600 stall got him so hard out of the hole even with bone stock rear suspension, and his bone stock valvetrain kept solid and he trapped 111 that pass. He clicked off 11.99 when the sun started going down, goes to show what 6300rpm shifts, a 3600 stall, and a tune can do on a 3300lb stock motor. His weird flat rear window must add 50 HP! For an m6, 4.30 rear gears and a 26" tire put you through the traps at 6300, for some reason I had to do a 27" tire on 4.33s to keep off the limiter at the stripe, but Shon Herron said his 4.33s worked with 26" tire, he might have been mistaken and been 4.30s, he trapped 112 at 11.77 with an m6. I never got over 109 with my 4.33s, but I had a lot of other issues happening that day and ditched the 9" before I could get a clean pass.

BradyD

Thanks for all the tips guys.

As a general question, what kind of head bolts does the LT1 take? I'm assuming a torque to yield bolt, but I can't find anything LT1 specific on Summit.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-910200

Will these work?

Thanks!

bowtienut

iTrader: (1)

No, not torque to yield. Yes, those will work.

BradyD

Sweet, thanks.

On to another issue...we're shopping for valve springs right now. We were planning on using Alex's Springs kit but they're out of stock and have no ETA as to when they'll be back in stock.

We essentially scored an LT4 Hot Cam for free, so we'll be running that. We're now looking for valve springs that'll work with the stock retainer hardware. Any suggestions? The cheaper the better (again, $2000 budget). We're currently considering the Edelbrock 5824 but can't really find anybody with experience running them.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-5824/overview/

bowtienut

iTrader: (1)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Howards-Cams...VWDwEw&vxp=mtr

Edit: need to keep looking. both these and the edelbrocks look marginal in lift capability if using 1.6 rockers on the Hotcam. With 1.5's they're ok.

BradyD

Thanks! We wound up ordering these, which gives us the option of using 1.6 RRs in the future:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/tf...4-16/overview/

BradyD

So now we're at the point where we're discussion suspension. Can you guys recommend a budget-friendly suspension set that would be attainable for less than $500? Are there other cars we can get better springs and shocks from?

Any input is great.

Also, our LT1 is completely shot (see attached pic). We managed to score a running cop car LT1, 2 sets of stock aluminum heads, a hot cam, and a 150,000 mile short block for $400. I think we're going to use the cop motor and plop aluminum heads and the hot cam in it. We're hoping to do that this weekend, but we both live int he Washington DC area and we're supposed to get killed by snow this weekend.

Thanks!