LT1-LT4 Modifications 1993-97 Gen II Small Block V8

Vibration. Clutch? Or engine?

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Old 04-12-2016, 09:59 PM
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Default Vibration. Clutch? Or engine?

It seems any progress I make on my turbo build, just leads me to more issues...

Anyways, got a somewhat drive tune done on my car today, and noticed I had a vibration. Its not in the driveline as it does it in neutral out of gear as well as in gear. I have checked the engine everywhere, and its not hitting or touching anything. The exuast is also not touching anything. Motor mounts have just been replaced (poly) and have crossed that off the list as well.

All cylinders are firing good (its not a miss).

My thinking is that its a balancing issue either in the clutch or the engine.

The clutch is a McCloud Street Twin purchased from Tick Performance about 8 months ago. I was told this would be balanced. I just put about 130 miles on the car today with it in for the first time.

I thought that mine might have a balancing piece from McCloud on the flywheel that I might be able to remove, but just checked the flywheel and mine does NOT have one.

The engine was re-built. I had all new bearings installed as well as new rings, and I believed the whole engine had been balanced as well (waiting on confirmation of that now about the balanced part).

My thinking is that it has got to be either in the engine or transmission.

This isn't a HUGE vibration. Just enough to make the numbers on my boost controller blurry at about 2500 RPM and higher.

Any thouhgts?
Old 04-13-2016, 03:33 AM
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your flywheel doesn't have the weight attached to it so is your engine internally balanced in the rear? Or is it supposed to be externally balanced and the flywheel should have a weight on it?

Whenever I've bough clutch kits, I'd assemble the whole thing and have it balanced as a unit so I don't know what an unbalanced clutch assembly feels like but I suppose it could be the cause.
Old 04-13-2016, 09:27 AM
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I had to buy the weight balance kit separately from Mcleod, but my engine is stock so it needed the externally balanced flywheel. Also, I put poly engine and tranny mounts on at the same time. Mine has significant vibes as well, I just assume it is from all of the poly mounts.....
Old 04-13-2016, 10:41 AM
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OP

if your motor was built as a "internal" balance motor than you need a zero aka "neutral" balanced FW/clutch.

The McLeod Street Twin comes as 2 part #'s. One for internal balance (no weight) and the other external balance (has a weight screwed on back of FW).....but what I found when I bought my "neutral" balanced Street Twin (without weight) it had the 4 holes drilled in the back of the FW to attach this weight. Problem was those 4 holes amounted to 25 grams of metal gone and the FW was not "perfectly" zero balanced. The Machine Shop I always use to confirm clutch/FW balance for my internal balanced 383 just added small screws/washers in 3 of the holes to compensate for the missing weight. The floater plate & PP were zero balanced and needed no adjustments according to machine shop....coincidentally called "The Balance Shop"

If your engine builder did not internally balance your motor than you need to get the weight from McLeod and screw it on the FW (use loc-tite)
Attached Thumbnails Vibration.  Clutch?  Or engine?-mcleod-fw-balance-25-grm.jpg  
Old 04-13-2016, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by AdsoYo
your flywheel doesn't have the weight attached to it so is your engine internally balanced in the rear? Or is it supposed to be externally balanced and the flywheel should have a weight on it?

Whenever I've bough clutch kits, I'd assemble the whole thing and have it balanced as a unit so I don't know what an unbalanced clutch assembly feels like but I suppose it could be the cause.
The clutch and flywheel were "supposed to be" balanced together. I even paid an extra $125 for this and I verified today that it was done for an internally balanced motor (verified through McCloud, not the vender I purchased it through).

I also got verification that the engine had previously been internally balanced. My engine builder had just installed new bearings, rings, and polished the crank, but didn't balance it because it was previously done (and I had no issues before).

Also, before I had also been running poly mounts, and before when I was running them I did not get a vibration. The mounts were replaced recently to new poly mounts thinking the old ones may have been bad.

I am at a loss (as usual it seems). If everything was balanced, then there should be no vibration (but I am for sure getting one). My guess is that perhaps the clutch was not balanced as I thought as after some research it seems others have had balancing issues. Granted it seems most had issues concerning the counter weight and if or if NOT it should be there depending on if the motor was internally or externally balanced. Mine should be good, but I don't know where else to turn to find out.

I made an appointment with RPM transmissions to pull the tranny, and inspect and verify the clutch is balanced. It is out of my ability to find out what is going on, so hopefully the experts can figure it out.

If anyone else has any input, I would love to hear any suggestions.
Old 04-13-2016, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by ******
OP

if your motor was built as a "internal" balance motor than you need a zero aka "neutral" balanced FW/clutch.

The McLeod Street Twin comes as 2 part #'s. One for internal balance (no weight) and the other external balance (has a weight screwed on back of FW).....but what I found when I bought my "neutral" balanced Street Twin (without weight) it had the 4 holes drilled in the back of the FW to attach this weight. Problem was those 4 holes amounted to 25 grams of metal gone and the FW was not "perfectly" zero balanced. The Machine Shop I always use to confirm clutch/FW balance for my internal balanced 383 just added small screws/washers in 3 of the holes to compensate for the missing weight. The floater plate & PP were zero balanced and needed no adjustments according to machine shop....coincidentally called "The Balance Shop"

If your engine builder did not internally balance your motor than you need to get the weight from McLeod and screw it on the FW (use loc-tite)
When searching to see if I had the weight, I saw these 4 holes.

What exact screws and washers did they use? That would be awesome if this were the issue.

I am guessing that I would still need it taken apart and checked to see exactly how many grams I would need to make it completely "neutral". And that just getting a few bolts to stick in them would not be the answer.
Old 04-13-2016, 01:29 PM
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McLeod uses the same FW for both internal & external balanced motors. They just don't include the weight on the FW if you order the "neutral" balance Twin....but the 4 holes that are taped into the FW amount to 25 grms of weight. Yeah it said it was a zero balance but I never take that for granted and I always take the FW & PP (floater also for twin clutchs) to a machine shop. IDK how much 25 grms off affects balance but I would assume quite a bit (almost a fing ounce)

The small bolts used by the machine shop were from their in house stash and they just weighed them on a digital scale. The 2 with washers + one small alan head screw (3 total) = 25 grams. They spun the FW again and it was dead nuts neutral then

Knowing the 4 holes amount to 25 grams you could just go buy some bolts that + that weight combined. You would need a scale though to measure weight.

I read once on SPEC site where they say using their Billet FW for "internal" balance motors to remove the weight and use THREE of the four screws to put back in the holes of FW...guess they also realized those holes = lost weight. Apparently neither McLeod or SPEC make TWO FW's. One with and one without the holes for the weight

Then...and this may be the real win...pull your starter and you should them have enough room to access the 4 holes without having to pull tranny & clutch (rotate motor by hand till you se the 4 holes). Also may be able to drop oil filter and pull dust cover off bell housing to get access.

For a $ in small bolts and some of your time...this may fix your vibe if it is because of a FW imbalance issue. And those poly mounts did you no favors in reducing vibration...
Old 04-13-2016, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by ******
McLeod uses the same FW for both internal & external balanced motors. They just don't include the weight on the FW if you order the "neutral" balance Twin....but the 4 holes that are taped into the FW amount to 25 grms of weight. Yeah it said it was a zero balance but I never take that for granted and I always take the FW & PP (floater also for twin clutchs) to a machine shop. IDK how much 25 grms off affects balance but I would assume quite a bit (almost a fing ounce)

The small bolts used by the machine shop were from their in house stash and they just weighed them on a digital scale. The 2 with washers + one small alan head screw (3 total) = 25 grams. They spun the FW again and it was dead nuts neutral then

Knowing the 4 holes amount to 25 grams you could just go buy some bolts that + that weight combined. You would need a scale though to measure weight.

I read once on SPEC site where they say using their Billet FW for "internal" balance motors to remove the weight and use THREE of the four screws to put back in the holes of FW...guess they also realized those holes = lost weight. Apparently neither McLeod or SPEC make TWO FW's. One with and one without the holes for the weight

Then...and this may be the real win...pull your starter and you should them have enough room to access the 4 holes without having to pull tranny & clutch (rotate motor by hand till you se the 4 holes). Also may be able to drop oil filter and pull dust cover off bell housing to get access.

For a $ in small bolts and some of your time...this may fix your vibe if it is because of a FW imbalance issue. And those poly mounts did you no favors in reducing vibration...

I can see the flywheel after pulling the starter. I'll try this out for sure. Looks like the 2 you have are in the "C" slot that McCloud reccomended me add the weight if I were to use it.
Old 04-13-2016, 01:52 PM
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One last questin ******, do you happen don know the thread size of the bolts used?
Old 04-13-2016, 01:55 PM
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The weight is a curved piece with 4 holes in it corresponding to the 4 holes in the FW.

IDK which 3 of the 4 holes you would use without actually having a machine shop do it but IMHO any 3 would be close enough.

Good you can see the FW area from starter hole

The shop I use to balance my stuff I have been going to for 40 years and they are beyond precise. They do nothing but race motors and run a IHRA Funny car sponsored by McLeod. While they could easily have "drilled" out material from opposite side of the FW...obviously way easier to just add the weight back to where it was taken from

pic is the assembled unit I got back from the machine shop. They left no ? in regards to assemble orientation of PP, floater & FW with punch marks & marker
Attached Thumbnails Vibration.  Clutch?  Or engine?-mcleod-clutch-w-balance-marks-2.jpg  
Old 04-13-2016, 07:40 PM
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I'm confused. Did you just add the 3 bolts? Or was that weight added also?
Old 04-13-2016, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by SpeedJunkee
I'm confused. Did you just add the 3 bolts? Or was that weight added also?
I just added the 3 small bolts. They are about 3/8" long and I used 1 washer under two and just a small alan head screw. Just get 25 grams worth of weight using 1-2 or 3 small machine thread round head screws

I can't tell you the thread size
. Maybe McLeod Tech could tell you thread size. Basically you need 3 of the 4 screws that would have held on the weight for a external balance FW or other screws/washers that add up to that weight
Old 04-14-2016, 09:22 AM
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Well, I added exactly 25 grams with bolts and washers. Its hard to tell exactly, but it "maybe" seems a little better. But unfortunately the vibration is still there.

It only cost me .66 cents to try. Unfortunately I'm sure my bill will be $1,000+ having everything pulled and checked and balanced and installed.

Thanks for the info anyways.

If anyone else has any last suggestions, they are welcome.
Old 04-14-2016, 10:21 AM
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if adding the weight did influence the balance better that would be a sign it is off. While the FW may have been brought back to "neutral" with the 25 grams....the PP may itself not be neutral. Mine was but every one is different. I have had PP on other clutch kits be off by more than 25+ grams alone

if RPM does confirm your FW/Floater/PP are in fact neutral balanced....than you will then have to look into the engine

If you did pay to have the clutch/FW balanced for $125, ouch that was a lot, there should be mark of some form (paint and or punch mark) to line up FW, floater & PP....assuming whoever installed it followed that alignment

Assume you have triple checked for any "grounding" issues. Also confirm your front damper, if stock, is not worn and the rubber is not all cracked and the outer damper ring is not slipping
Old 04-14-2016, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by ******
if adding the weight did influence the balance better that would be a sign it is off. While the FW may have been brought back to "neutral" with the 25 grams....the PP may itself not be neutral. Mine was but every one is different. I have had PP on other clutch kits be off by more than 25+ grams alone

if RPM does confirm your FW/Floater/PP are in fact neutral balanced....than you will then have to look into the engine

If you did pay to have the clutch/FW balanced for $125, ouch that was a lot, there should be mark of some form (paint and or punch mark) to line up FW, floater & PP....assuming whoever installed it followed that alignment

Assume you have triple checked for any "grounding" issues. Also confirm your front damper, if stock, is not worn and the rubber is not all cracked and the outer damper ring is not slipping
When I purchased the clutch through Tick, they asked if I wanted it balanced for an additional $125, I said "yes". They did not do it. It was done and ordered directly through McCloud. When I enquired Tick about how it was balanced (referencing to neutrally/internally balanced vs an external balanced engine), they said I would need to talk directly with McCloud since they did it. I spoke with McCloud and gave them my reference number for the order placed with Tick, they said they balanced it for a "nuetrally balanced/internally balanced engine", which is what I have.

That being said, I believe something to be out of balance with the clutch and flywheel vs the engine. The engine did not vibrate before it had new bearings and rings installed. The engine builder was a very well known builder, so I doubt he didn't put the rods back where they should have been when he had it all apart.

The engine has an ATI super damper for the hub. I have dedicated literally hours if not days making sure the engine or exhaust was not touching anything and was not grounding anywhere.
Old 04-14-2016, 01:21 PM
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so you paid Tick $125 but McLeod supposedly did balance the unit....didn't know McLeod offered that. I do know McLeod has 2 part #'s for the LT1 Twin. One for external and the other for internal balanced motor. The reality is they use the same FW for both and just don't include the weight in the neutral balanced kit. I believe a third party vendor actually makes the FW's for McLeod

I don't take any vendors word on a advertised part it is neutral balanced which is why I took my supposedly zero balanced clutch kit to a machine shop....which is when I found out the FW was 25 grams off because of the 4 drilled/tapped holes for the weight

Sucks you have to pay a shop to pull all this out and then a machine shop to spin it for balance. Tough when you don't do the work yourself on installing aftermarket parts but even if doing yourself, for me, I find it worth the $60 the machine shop charged me to balance the kit was well worth not having to pull the clutch after install to find it is not zero balanced. I would have had no problem paying the machine shop if they said it was perfect out of the box, just comforting to know it is before installing it

Sucks you paid for this and it appears it did not happen

I also have the ATI, great balancer
Old 04-14-2016, 01:47 PM
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another thought, just remembered reading this about another twin install, is the FW can need slight opening of the center hole to fit over some aftermarket cranks. I am talking very little. Can be done with a dermal and emery cloth.

What that post said was the shop tried to pull the FW on by using the bolts and did get it on but it was vey slightly not sitting flush which resulted in vibration. More so in the pedal feel itself but still a vibration

Obviously in that scenario a zero balanced kit would vibrate because it was not mounted dead nuts flush on the crank

just throwing that out there
Old 04-14-2016, 08:28 PM
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Thank you for all the input. I actually don't feel any vibration in the pedal. It's all really in the car and shifter.

I normally would just pull the tranny myself and send it to a machine shop. McCloud offered to check it for me for free but at this point I do not trust them completely. I have just been wrenching so much on the car lately my patience is about at its breaking point, and I am about ready to go out of town for a couple weeks for work and just don't have the time to mess with it myself so yeah, gonna pay to get it done right, or worst case scenario pay to find out I am really hosed and it's the motor and not the clutch. But I need to check the clutch reguardless to know for sure that it is good.

Drove the car to work (it's halfway to RPM), and got an SES light, and found that the car leaks fuel when I top it off. After I leaks enough from the gas tank it stops leaking and it's not near anything so I'll just keep from topping it off and scan the car tomorrow before I drop it off. Oh the joys of car projects...
Old 04-15-2016, 01:11 PM
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Many of us have been to the breaking point on WTF now is wrong with the car. A break from it will do you good.

FWIW I found McLeod good to work with. I had a issue with my Twin, or thought I did, and pulled it after 500 mi and asked McLeod to check it out. They are a hr drive from me so I just went there vs paying the shipping. Met Lee at the counter (guy is short on words but was polite) and he said "come back in a hr".....I went and had breakfast and came back to find they did a quick re-finish of the FW and just replaced the floater & discs for no $. They said they really didn't find anything wrong with the clutch but rebuilt it anyway.

before I put it back in I looked closer at the pilot bearing I had installed 500 mi before...it looked OK but felt like it was binding when I put my finger in it and spun. I replaced it and found that was the source of what noise and slight vibe I felt (only in pedal) just when I pushed in pedal. I feel McLeod completely stood behind the clutch and rebuilt it even though it was OK

The 500 mi bad pilot bearing was some store brand one I got at local chain store. I ordered the AC Delco one from RockAuto and have had no issue since
Old 04-16-2016, 12:11 PM
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Well, a break I am getting as I will be leaving on Monday for out of town. Dropped the car off yesterday to RPM. I am confident that if the vibration was in the clutch assembly, they will get it taken care of.

Checked the SES code; P0121 (TPS sensor). For whatever reason, this code comes up every once in a while. I've never had it lead to any issues other than tripping the code. I've replaced the TPS and it didn't seem to make a difference. Fuel leak traced to the top of my fuel tank where I have a 90 degree fitting coming out. I think I just need to clean it better and get some fuel tank sealant and hopefully thats an easy fix.

I've been deeply contemplating having RPM install a pump on the tranny while its out to spray fluid on the input and cluster so it is protected during long periods of acceleration (done in this link here; https://ls1tech.com/forums/manual-tr...h-hp-cars.html ). Only thing holding me back is the price RPM quoted me ($1500). Its a $200 pump and some misc hoses and lines tapped into the tranny with some basic wiring. I don't feel confident enough opening up my tranny without having it leak when I put it back together, so I'll need someone to do it, but its hard for me to swallow what I believe to be a $500-$700 job into a $1500 quote.

First, I need to find out where the vibration is coming from. If they find out the clutch assembly was out of balance, and that it fixes my vibration, I'll be more inlcined to contemplate further on having them do the pump mod while they have the car. If the clutch assembly is fine, I'll have bigger worries on my plate like pulling the motor and having it dropped apart and balanced...


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