MONSTER Clutches and shims!!!!
09-03-2009, 03:21 AM
#1
MONSTER Clutches and shims!!!! Ive been reading posts from guys talking about rather to use a shim with there Monster clutch. The answer is no. There have been a couple thousand Monster clutches installed WITHOUT a shim. And below is a post from TICK.
In our experience:
Monster Clutches do NOT need shimmed
Textralia Clutches do NOT need shimmed
LS7 Clutches do NOT need shimmed
SPEC clutches do need shimmed
But don't take our word for it guys, when in doubt: measure!
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Joey Anderson
Tick Performance of Mooresville, NC
(704)660-5843
www.TickPerformance.com
www.TICKshift.com
In our experience:
Monster Clutches do NOT need shimmed
Textralia Clutches do NOT need shimmed
LS7 Clutches do NOT need shimmed
SPEC clutches do need shimmed
But don't take our word for it guys, when in doubt: measure!
__________________
Joey Anderson
Tick Performance of Mooresville, NC
(704)660-5843
www.TickPerformance.com
www.TICKshift.com
09-03-2009, 08:25 AM
#2
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When you installed the clutch did you check the clearance between the tob and pp for a shim. I know Monster states that thier clutches don't require a shim but I have installed quite a few and I have installed shims with all of them. I have seen .25" of gap which is quite a lot without a shim.
I just measured a new gm slave and it appears to have about .950" of travel on the piston/tob. If you have .25" of gap that would only leave you with .700" of travel at the slave. Could it be possible that with the increased fluid displacement of our cylinder along with an excessive gap that you could actually be maxing out the stroke of the slave and pulling air in from that point? That may also make the tob hang up and not return as it should causing your pedal not to return and the clutch to have a prolonged dissengagement...
Thats just a thought...does the air bubbles introduce theirself only when you pump the pedal? Just curious as I have never used a mity vac and I don't really know the procedure.
Since you state that the engine bumps the rev limiter even when the pedal is released and the gear is selected would make me think that the pressure plate isn't returning for some odd reason. With the spring under the dash removed the only thing that returns the pedal with our cylinder is the pp springs. Unless there was a severe amount of air in the system, the pedal should come up with our cylinder.
If our master is adjusted to flow so much fluid that the pp is becoming inverted or over extended it could possibly hang up as well causing the pedal not to return and the clutch would continue to be dissengaged during that time until the pp becomes un-hung.
Its very strange that you say the clutch seems to still be dissengaged after the pedal is released. That would definately be something going on with the pressure plate and that would also be why the pedal doesn't return.
I just measured a new gm slave and it appears to have about .950" of travel on the piston/tob. If you have .25" of gap that would only leave you with .700" of travel at the slave. Could it be possible that with the increased fluid displacement of our cylinder along with an excessive gap that you could actually be maxing out the stroke of the slave and pulling air in from that point? That may also make the tob hang up and not return as it should causing your pedal not to return and the clutch to have a prolonged dissengagement...
Thats just a thought...does the air bubbles introduce theirself only when you pump the pedal? Just curious as I have never used a mity vac and I don't really know the procedure.
Since you state that the engine bumps the rev limiter even when the pedal is released and the gear is selected would make me think that the pressure plate isn't returning for some odd reason. With the spring under the dash removed the only thing that returns the pedal with our cylinder is the pp springs. Unless there was a severe amount of air in the system, the pedal should come up with our cylinder.
If our master is adjusted to flow so much fluid that the pp is becoming inverted or over extended it could possibly hang up as well causing the pedal not to return and the clutch would continue to be dissengaged during that time until the pp becomes un-hung.
Its very strange that you say the clutch seems to still be dissengaged after the pedal is released. That would definately be something going on with the pressure plate and that would also be why the pedal doesn't return.
Tick states in this post they have installed shims with monster clutches tho?
09-03-2009, 09:02 AM
#3
And although my textralia clutch may not technically "need" a shim.. its pedal engagement is WAY too low to be practical, in fact I think it doesnt fully disengage which would be a good reason why I cant get the car into reverse when cold.
The pedal needs to be on the floor to get into the next gear at all
The pedal needs to be on the floor to get into the next gear at all
09-03-2009, 06:12 PM
#7
I meausured and the 2 distances were within a tenth of each other. But the thing barely disengages, hell when its cold the shifter is really hard to move into gear reverse is impossible when cold. None of this was an issue before the new clutch. It seems like the clutch needs a shim.. but like I said I measured and oz700s dont really ever need shims anyway
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09-03-2009, 10:12 PM
#9
I really wish everyone could get a firm grasp of what a shim really does in these cars. You want the distance between the bottomed tob on the slave (has to be all the way against the base of the slave when you measure) to the pp fingers to be around an 1/8". 3/16" will be fine as will 1/16" in most cases. Basically, you don't want too much clearance because you will begin to limit the travel of the actual piston in the slave/tob. Negative clearance will preload the tob against the pp which would basically result in a pre-maturely slipping clutch.
The only way a shim will ever really change the engagement point of your clutch is if you have negative clearance once the shim is added. This is basically like you would be "riding" the clutch all the time, or you'd have a head start with dissengagement. But like I just mentioned, you may have a slipping clutch very soon with negative clearance.
With the huge spring installed under the tob, the actual tob will always be against the fingers of the pp. There is no adjustment necessary like a cable or linkage opperated clutch because the spring always maintains the "free play". Once the pedal is pressed, fluid will immediately begin to dissengage the pp. The system is basically self adjusting in that sense. No matter if you check the clearance at 1/4" or 1/16", you will still start to dissengage the clutch at the same rate and with the same amount of pedal travel. There will never be "free play" because you have too much clearance. You simply want to get the clearance correct so that the slave has the most travel possible without "riding" the clutch.
You also want clearance because as the surfaces of the disk, flywheel, and pp wear clearance will decrease.
We have installed tex clutches, monster clutches, spec clutches, ram clutches, and even LS7 clutchs with and without shims. All of the monsters I've installed got a spec shim from spec clutch installs that didn't need a shim LOL. I think we did one monster clutch that didn't need a shim. Regardless, all those clutch installs probably would have functioned just as well without shims, but its best to get the distance correct to leave the most travel possible of the slave itself. I would say this is even more critical when using our adjustable master that is capable of pushing a lot more fluid that the stocker.
So in short, measure your clearance regardless of clutch brand and shim accordingly. If you're having clutch dissengagement issues, a shim is not the answer. If you're having dissengagement issues you have hydraulic issues and with many aftermarket clutches the factory master cannot move enough fluid to dissengage the clutch properly. Most of our dissengagement issues have been with Ram Twins, Tex singles, and LS7 clutches. We absolutely love the Monster clutches, and spec has always worked well for us also.
Our master will solve 99% of clutch dissengagement issues (regardless of brand) and will offer quicker shifts and shorter throws for everyone...even with no issues with dissengagement. Complete dissengagement means longer clutch and tranny life.
The only way a shim will ever really change the engagement point of your clutch is if you have negative clearance once the shim is added. This is basically like you would be "riding" the clutch all the time, or you'd have a head start with dissengagement. But like I just mentioned, you may have a slipping clutch very soon with negative clearance.
With the huge spring installed under the tob, the actual tob will always be against the fingers of the pp. There is no adjustment necessary like a cable or linkage opperated clutch because the spring always maintains the "free play". Once the pedal is pressed, fluid will immediately begin to dissengage the pp. The system is basically self adjusting in that sense. No matter if you check the clearance at 1/4" or 1/16", you will still start to dissengage the clutch at the same rate and with the same amount of pedal travel. There will never be "free play" because you have too much clearance. You simply want to get the clearance correct so that the slave has the most travel possible without "riding" the clutch.
You also want clearance because as the surfaces of the disk, flywheel, and pp wear clearance will decrease.
We have installed tex clutches, monster clutches, spec clutches, ram clutches, and even LS7 clutchs with and without shims. All of the monsters I've installed got a spec shim from spec clutch installs that didn't need a shim LOL. I think we did one monster clutch that didn't need a shim. Regardless, all those clutch installs probably would have functioned just as well without shims, but its best to get the distance correct to leave the most travel possible of the slave itself. I would say this is even more critical when using our adjustable master that is capable of pushing a lot more fluid that the stocker.
So in short, measure your clearance regardless of clutch brand and shim accordingly. If you're having clutch dissengagement issues, a shim is not the answer. If you're having dissengagement issues you have hydraulic issues and with many aftermarket clutches the factory master cannot move enough fluid to dissengage the clutch properly. Most of our dissengagement issues have been with Ram Twins, Tex singles, and LS7 clutches. We absolutely love the Monster clutches, and spec has always worked well for us also.
Our master will solve 99% of clutch dissengagement issues (regardless of brand) and will offer quicker shifts and shorter throws for everyone...even with no issues with dissengagement. Complete dissengagement means longer clutch and tranny life.
09-03-2009, 10:25 PM
#10
Not that you should nesecarily answer this question because its not our product I just wanted some advice. What should I do with my textralia?
I meausured and the 2 distances were within a tenth of each other. But the thing barely disengages, hell when its cold the shifter is really hard to move into gear reverse is impossible when cold. None of this was an issue before the new clutch. It seems like the clutch needs a shim.. but like I said I measured and oz700s dont really ever need shims anyway
I meausured and the 2 distances were within a tenth of each other. But the thing barely disengages, hell when its cold the shifter is really hard to move into gear reverse is impossible when cold. None of this was an issue before the new clutch. It seems like the clutch needs a shim.. but like I said I measured and oz700s dont really ever need shims anyway
We did a swap on an 88 FC a few years ago and the customer supplied a Hinson master kit which used a Wilwood 7/8" bore master and it worked great as well. With an adjustable rod and max pedal travel equaling the max travel of the piston in the slave you can adjust the stroke to get the Tex clutch to dissengage just fine.
Otherwise it could all just be a bleed issue...but you deffinately don't need to install a shim.
09-04-2009, 07:17 AM
#11
Also, have you spoken with Monster about the units that did not measure within spec and needed a shim? I know you said they probably would have worked without it, but if they are not measuring within proper spec then what was going on with them?
Thanks!
09-04-2009, 08:24 AM
#12
If the travel of the piston/tob was limited and it wasn't causing disengagement issues then what kind of problem would it cause? Just trying to understand exactly what is happening in these circumstances...I like to know how and why things work
Also, have you spoken with Monster about the units that did not measure within spec and needed a shim? I know you said they probably would have worked without it, but if they are not measuring within proper spec then what was going on with them?
Thanks!
Also, have you spoken with Monster about the units that did not measure within spec and needed a shim? I know you said they probably would have worked without it, but if they are not measuring within proper spec then what was going on with them?
Thanks!
I haven't seen this occur, and I'm sure there have been tons of clutches installed without a shim that actually needed one however. A gm slave looks like it has about .950" of travel. The amount of gap you have will be subtracted from that to give you the amount of travel the slave actually has. The more gap, the less range of motion the slave will have.
I haven't spoken with monster, because I don't really even feel like it is an issue. I check every clutch we install. The only way that shimming could ever damage the clutch is if there is no clearance. Obviously if there is a 1/4" clearance and we decide to install a shim then the stack hieght of the clutch/pp/flywheel assembly isn't exactly right for the application. I'm not saying there is anything "wrong" with the clutch, I just feel it is better to get the gap at about 1/8". As long as there is some gap the clutch will function the same regardless.
I should really do a test on a car with our master just to see how much its capable of moving the tob. If at full stroke it pushes .75" for example, you wouldn't want your gap to be over .200" or damage to the slave itself could occur. All of this really should never even come into play because when adjusted properly our master is usually no where near full stroke...but its always still best to check for a shim...
09-04-2009, 09:21 AM
#13
I'm not sure you could really limit the travel of the tob. I would assume that if you had enough gap combined with the increased travel that our master is capable of you could actually push the seal past its limit and have a leak, draw in air, etc.
I haven't seen this occur, and I'm sure there have been tons of clutches installed without a shim that actually needed one however. A gm slave looks like it has about .950" of travel. The amount of gap you have will be subtracted from that to give you the amount of travel the slave actually has. The more gap, the less range of motion the slave will have.
I haven't spoken with monster, because I don't really even feel like it is an issue. I check every clutch we install. The only way that shimming could ever damage the clutch is if there is no clearance. Obviously if there is a 1/4" clearance and we decide to install a shim then the stack hieght of the clutch/pp/flywheel assembly isn't exactly right for the application. I'm not saying there is anything "wrong" with the clutch, I just feel it is better to get the gap at about 1/8". As long as there is some gap the clutch will function the same regardless.
I should really do a test on a car with our master just to see how much its capable of moving the tob. If at full stroke it pushes .75" for example, you wouldn't want your gap to be over .200" or damage to the slave itself could occur. All of this really should never even come into play because when adjusted properly our master is usually no where near full stroke...but its always still best to check for a shim...
I haven't seen this occur, and I'm sure there have been tons of clutches installed without a shim that actually needed one however. A gm slave looks like it has about .950" of travel. The amount of gap you have will be subtracted from that to give you the amount of travel the slave actually has. The more gap, the less range of motion the slave will have.
I haven't spoken with monster, because I don't really even feel like it is an issue. I check every clutch we install. The only way that shimming could ever damage the clutch is if there is no clearance. Obviously if there is a 1/4" clearance and we decide to install a shim then the stack hieght of the clutch/pp/flywheel assembly isn't exactly right for the application. I'm not saying there is anything "wrong" with the clutch, I just feel it is better to get the gap at about 1/8". As long as there is some gap the clutch will function the same regardless.
I should really do a test on a car with our master just to see how much its capable of moving the tob. If at full stroke it pushes .75" for example, you wouldn't want your gap to be over .200" or damage to the slave itself could occur. All of this really should never even come into play because when adjusted properly our master is usually no where near full stroke...but its always still best to check for a shim...
My example of how a shim would solve disengagement issues (using simple numbers since I don't have real world numbers):
Let's say with 0.00" of clearance between the TOB and PP fingers, you need 0.9" of travel on the TOB to completely disengage the clutch. Now, let's also say that the maximum travel of the TOB that you can achieve with a full stroke of the master cylinder is 1.00". For the third factor, let's say without a shim, the clearance between the TOB and PP fingers is .25". Even with the full 1.00" travel of the TOB from a full stroke of the master, you're still only pushing the PP fingers .75" after taking into consideration the clearance. With the PP fingers only moving .75" when we need .9" of travel to fully disengage the clutch, the clutch will NOT fully disengage and will cause issues shifting into gear. A .15" shim would be needed to make up the extra clearance and, if installed, would solve your disengagement issues and allow you to shift into gear without issue.
Or am I missing something?
09-04-2009, 10:07 AM
#14
What master are you running now? Assuming you're talking about your Rx7, I'd suggest mounting a 7/8" bore master cylinder like our Tilton and make sure you connect it to the pedal in a way that with the pedals full stroke you will move the piston of the master 1". You may have to alter where it hooks to the pedals to do this, I'm not sure about that.
We did a swap on an 88 FC a few years ago and the customer supplied a Hinson master kit which used a Wilwood 7/8" bore master and it worked great as well. With an adjustable rod and max pedal travel equaling the max travel of the piston in the slave you can adjust the stroke to get the Tex clutch to dissengage just fine.
Otherwise it could all just be a bleed issue...but you deffinately don't need to install a shim.
We did a swap on an 88 FC a few years ago and the customer supplied a Hinson master kit which used a Wilwood 7/8" bore master and it worked great as well. With an adjustable rod and max pedal travel equaling the max travel of the piston in the slave you can adjust the stroke to get the Tex clutch to dissengage just fine.
Otherwise it could all just be a bleed issue...but you deffinately don't need to install a shim.
yeah I'm running a 7/8th MC like the one you worked with before. I have worked extensivly at bleeding the system, and its been like this for a a couple months now without change. I did a standard bleed, I used a miti vac, and I've put about 2.5 big bottle of brake fluid through the system to absolutly make sure all air was out. at the end of the day I was soaked in brake fluid (Nasty ****) I deff got all the air out. Its something else with the system thats not right. It does seem to very slowly be getting better as the clutch wears though.. So hopefully one day It'll wear to the point where its better to drive but more likely I'll just sell it and try and get something that engages sooner. I think this is a problem with my setup as a whole not reallly the clutch. Like I said it works fine technically.. I just need to have the pedal to the floor to get it into the next gear which makes WOT shifts at the limiter a real bitch.
09-04-2009, 01:49 PM
#15
TECH Fanatic
From the way it looks i need a shim with my Monster 3.5 but i am not entirely sure. For the longest i was not able to shift into 3rd at high rpm's with it, so i figured maybe the slave was getting over extended. I have a quicktime bellhousing on it with the engine plate so you guys know if it has a different length from stock. I finally decided to adjust my Tick Master so it would extend the slave as least as possible. Which my clutch pedal is almost to the floor and it barely disengages the clutch to be honest i think it is still not comepletely disengaging. So i figure if i put a shim in there then i can get more usable travel out of my slave without it overextending but i also think that it may put the slave too close to the pressure plate. Its pretty much fixed right now i have only had it not reingage the clutch once and that was last night at where i have my master cylinder adjusted to right now. Maybe one day i will tear it down and put a shim in but not looking forward to doing all that work just to put a f in shim in and try it out
09-04-2009, 03:19 PM
#16
Isn't the travel of the TOB inherently limited by the stroke/amount of fluid pushed by the master cylinder AND by the length of the spring fully extended on the slave?
My example of how a shim would solve disengagement issues (using simple numbers since I don't have real world numbers):
Let's say with 0.00" of clearance between the TOB and PP fingers, you need 0.9" of travel on the TOB to completely disengage the clutch. Now, let's also say that the maximum travel of the TOB that you can achieve with a full stroke of the master cylinder is 1.00". For the third factor, let's say without a shim, the clearance between the TOB and PP fingers is .25". Even with the full 1.00" travel of the TOB from a full stroke of the master, you're still only pushing the PP fingers .75" after taking into consideration the clearance. With the PP fingers only moving .75" when we need .9" of travel to fully disengage the clutch, the clutch will NOT fully disengage and will cause issues shifting into gear. A .15" shim would be needed to make up the extra clearance and, if installed, would solve your disengagement issues and allow you to shift into gear without issue.
Or am I missing something?
My example of how a shim would solve disengagement issues (using simple numbers since I don't have real world numbers):
Let's say with 0.00" of clearance between the TOB and PP fingers, you need 0.9" of travel on the TOB to completely disengage the clutch. Now, let's also say that the maximum travel of the TOB that you can achieve with a full stroke of the master cylinder is 1.00". For the third factor, let's say without a shim, the clearance between the TOB and PP fingers is .25". Even with the full 1.00" travel of the TOB from a full stroke of the master, you're still only pushing the PP fingers .75" after taking into consideration the clearance. With the PP fingers only moving .75" when we need .9" of travel to fully disengage the clutch, the clutch will NOT fully disengage and will cause issues shifting into gear. A .15" shim would be needed to make up the extra clearance and, if installed, would solve your disengagement issues and allow you to shift into gear without issue.
Or am I missing something?
There is no slack in the system, the clearance has no effect. Pushing the pedal will begin to dissengage the clutch immediately because the spring has all the clearance removed and fluid is sitting against the slaves piston ready to go from that point. Basic hydraulics.
Those numbers aren't real world numbers anyway. I would be intersted to hear from a clutch manufacturer about how much movement at the slave is actually necessary to dissengage there clutch properly. With a real world .950" travel at the slave, if the clutch only needed .500" to be fully dissengaged even if you still had .25" of clearance (without the spring which eliminates the clearance) you would be a long way from over traveling the slave cylinder and a shim wouldn't matter.
If your ideas were correct, the .25" of clearance would show up as "free play" at the top of the pedals travel. The pedal would have to move the tob that .25" before it would start to dissengage the pp but that simply isn't the case.
09-04-2009, 04:38 PM
#17
I'm still a bit confused. I understand what you are saying about there not being any slack between the TOB and the PP. However, if the measurements are not in spec (meaning that you need a shim) and you do not install a shim, what problems will it cause? It was stated that it will not cause disengagement issues, so I'm just wondering what problems it will cause.
Thanks!
Thanks!
09-08-2009, 08:22 AM
#18
I'm still a bit confused. I understand what you are saying about there not being any slack between the TOB and the PP. However, if the measurements are not in spec (meaning that you need a shim) and you do not install a shim, what problems will it cause? It was stated that it will not cause disengagement issues, so I'm just wondering what problems it will cause.
Thanks!
Thanks!
If the slave reaches its maximum safe travel, but the pedal is still pushing more fluid because the pedal hasn't hit the floor/stop yet obviously damage to the slave could occur. With a stock master this will probably never create an issue...
I've done quite a few clutch installs over the years on these cars, and I can tell you first had that if you take a car with a .25" gap and add a .125" shim the engagement point and feel of the clutch will not change whatsoever. The only way adding a shim will ever change the feel and dissengagement of the clutch is IF by adding the shim you take away all gap and actually preload the bottomed out TOB against the PP. Then, the engagement point will be higher and you will experience a more complete clutch release. But by doing this, you will possibly have a slipping clutch because some of the clamping pressure of the pp is lost because it is constantly being released the amount that it is preloaded.
10-30-2009, 11:11 PM
#19
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What I think you're not taking into consideration is the fact that there really is no stop on the tob or slave (atleast to my knowledge)...and the master will begin its stroke immediately...the clearance has no effect on how much the master dissengages the pp because the spring under the tob eliminates all clearance under operating conditions. IF the clutch needs .9" to dissengage completely but after clearance you only have .75" of travel before the slave is maxed you would littereally blow the seal out of the end of the slave if you go past the .75" safety limit.
There is no slack in the system, the clearance has no effect. Pushing the pedal will begin to dissengage the clutch immediately because the spring has all the clearance removed and fluid is sitting against the slaves piston ready to go from that point. Basic hydraulics.
Those numbers aren't real world numbers anyway. I would be intersted to hear from a clutch manufacturer about how much movement at the slave is actually necessary to dissengage there clutch properly. With a real world .950" travel at the slave, if the clutch only needed .500" to be fully dissengaged even if you still had .25" of clearance (without the spring which eliminates the clearance) you would be a long way from over traveling the slave cylinder and a shim wouldn't matter.
If your ideas were correct, the .25" of clearance would show up as "free play" at the top of the pedals travel. The pedal would have to move the tob that .25" before it would start to dissengage the pp but that simply isn't the case.
There is no slack in the system, the clearance has no effect. Pushing the pedal will begin to dissengage the clutch immediately because the spring has all the clearance removed and fluid is sitting against the slaves piston ready to go from that point. Basic hydraulics.
Those numbers aren't real world numbers anyway. I would be intersted to hear from a clutch manufacturer about how much movement at the slave is actually necessary to dissengage there clutch properly. With a real world .950" travel at the slave, if the clutch only needed .500" to be fully dissengaged even if you still had .25" of clearance (without the spring which eliminates the clearance) you would be a long way from over traveling the slave cylinder and a shim wouldn't matter.
If your ideas were correct, the .25" of clearance would show up as "free play" at the top of the pedals travel. The pedal would have to move the tob that .25" before it would start to dissengage the pp but that simply isn't the case.
Not sure on other clutches out there, but from what Steve (Monster) says, the Monster PP disengages @ .250" and at anything more than .400" can damage the PP.
